Lets ban all the schools!

[sideswipe]

as it says, lest find a way to try and get all schools of magic banned to us. so far focused specialist (ban 3) and incanatrix for ban 1.

how many other ways to ban schools of magic are there?
a couple of notes -
- for this exercise, we will say that you qualify for prestige classes unless another one we use means that you could in no way qualify.
- since arcane and divine share schools, though divine does not have heavy emphasis on school distinction, any way to get a school banned from either arcane or divine will be fine.
- we are not trying to make a powerful build, just see what can get banned.
other forms of casting are excluded from this unless it aids us specifically in banning an arcane/divine school.

what have we got?

[Zanos]

Red Wizard of Thay and Wizard of High Sorcerery both have to ban an additional school, although your character would have to have been trained in Kyrnn and Faerun.

[Fax Celestis]

Focused Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5/Wizard of High Sorcery 5/Incantatrix 5. I cast nothing but Abjuration and Universal spells.

[sideswipe]

Focused Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5/Wizard of High Sorcery 5/Incantatrix 5. I cast nothing but Abjuration and Universal spells.

actually if you are specialised in abjuration already when taking incanatrix you dont have to drop another school. so you would have to be another specialist wizard.


Red Wizard of Thay and Wizard of High Sorcerery both have to ban an additional school, although your character would have to have been trained in Kyrnn and Faerun.

fluff ignored, so yeah both work.

[Troacctid]

And note that you still can't ban Divination.

[sideswipe]

so ban 3 from wizard, 1 from incanatrix, 1 from red wizard and 1 from high sorcerey. making 6 so far. you specailise conjuration and ban all but div, conjuration and abjuration then go incanatrix and ban your focused school of conjuration but can use ones you already know, so only divination and abjuration left.... anymore? just one more to ban abjuration and be a diviner only by default.

[Fax Celestis]

actually if you are specialised in abjuration already when taking incanatrix you dont have to drop another school. so you would have to be another specialist wizard.

Aw, boo. :smallfrown:

[Zanos]

I forget what changeling wizard does but I feel like it would be helpful.

[sideswipe]

I forget what changeling wizard does but I feel like it would be helpful.

allows dual specialisation of two schools by giving up two schools. very helpful, unfortunately not here. but thanks for bringing it to my attention. never looked at it before.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

actually if you are specialised in abjuration already when taking incanatrix you dont have to drop another school. so you would have to be another specialist wizard.

This is not the case with the 3.5 Incantatrix:


Focused Studies (Ex): At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools. She must choose a school of magic other than abjuration or divination as a prohibited school. This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization. Thus, a specialized wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two.

[sideswipe]

This is not the case with the 3.5 Incantatrix:

ok, just downloaded the book and your correct. i never really looked at the class anywhere but online (and half an hour ago lol)

so still at 6 bans, leaving abjuration and divination.

[StoneCipher]

But the question is can you even specialize in a school of magic that you are banned in? I would assume not, but it may be missing from the RAW

[bjoern]

This is not the case with the 3.5 Incantatrix:

And since its now a prohibited school, you can't cast spells you already know from it if I'm not mistaken.

If I remember correctly the 3.0 incantatrix gave an exception under focused study that let you keep old spells from the prohibited school.

The 3.5 incantatrix doesn't have this exception. So its just treated as a regular prohibited school would be:
" Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later."

Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Fax Celestis]

But the question is can you even specialize in a school of magic that you are banned in? I would assume not, but it may be missing from the RAW


The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

Emphasis mine.

[sideswipe]

sorry, im not very familiar with incanatrix. could some kind soul who is familiar with the RAW of it explain how many and what get banned? i am also working on the pretence that if you need to ban a school you specialised in with the original wizard specialisation you can.

so so far wiz X /red wiz X / high sorcerer X/ incanitrix X for 5 banned schools + incanatrix bans. so can someone clear up what that is please?

thank you guys.

[bjoern]

sorry, im not very familiar with incanatrix. could some kind soul who is familiar with the RAW of it explain how many and what get banned? i am also working on the pretence that if you need to ban a school you specialised in with the original wizard specialisation you can.

so so far wiz X /red wiz X / high sorcerer X/ incanitrix X for 5 banned schools + incanatrix bans. so can someone clear up what that is please?

thank you guys.

3.5 incantatrix makes you ban 1 school other than abjuration or divination

[StoneCipher]

Emphasis mine.

What I meant by that is when you get down to it, the only way to ban schools that I am aware of is through specialization in others. That being said, now that you are down to two schools, I would imagine you could not specialize in one you already have banned, but RAW can leave specifics out, so perhaps you could.

[Fax Celestis]

Focused Specialist (let's go with abjuration) makes you ban three instead of two. Goodbye evocation and necromancy.

Red Wizard bans one more. Byebye illusion.

Wizard of High Sorcery bans one more. Goodbye, conjuration.

Incantatrix bans one more. Adios, transmutation.

All you have left now is abjuration and divination, neither of which you can ban: divination is not a legal ban (per the specialization rules), and abjuration is not a legal ban since you specialized in it (also per the specialization rules). Well, and universal spells, I suppose. Does that even get used outside of core?

EDIT: And enchantment. Learn to count, Fax.

[sideswipe]

well thats the best we have then. thanks guys.

[bjoern]

And since its now a prohibited school, you can't cast spells you already know from it if I'm not mistaken.

If I remember correctly the 3.0 incantatrix gave an exception under focused study that let you keep old spells from the prohibited school.

The 3.5 incantatrix doesn't have this exception. So its just treated as a regular prohibited school would be:
" Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later."

Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.

I am still curious though. I've seen it mentioned several times for builds that use incantatrix that you need to make sure you add spells you want to your spell book before you take incantatrix and focused study. But I'm not seeing how you'd be able to cast them even if you knew them before they were banned. The rules for prohibited schools are pretty clear: they are off limits.

Any thoughts?

[StoneCipher]

Yeah universal isnt technically a school, its a lack thereof. It also cannot be banned at all.

[Fax Celestis]

I am still curious though. I've seen it mentioned several times for builds that use incantatrix that you need to make sure you add spells you want to your spell book before you take incantatrix and focused study. But I'm not seeing how you'd be able to cast them even if you knew them before they were banned. The rules for prohibited schools are pretty clear: they are off limits.

Any thoughts?

Well, there's the Arcane Transfiguration feat from Lost Empires of Faerun.


Prerequisites: Item Reprieve, Spell Reprieve, specialist wizard level 10th

Benefit: Choose a school of magic that was previously prohibited to you because of your arcane specialization. You can now learn and cast spells from that school normally, as if you were not a specialist wizard.

Three feats to get back a school isn't bad, but incantatrices are already pretty strapped for feats (considering they're going to want as much metamagic as they can get their grubby little hands on).

[sideswipe]

I am still curious though. I've seen it mentioned several times for builds that use incantatrix that you need to make sure you add spells you want to your spell book before you take incantatrix and focused study. But I'm not seeing how you'd be able to cast them even if you knew them before they were banned. The rules for prohibited schools are pretty clear: they are off limits.

Any thoughts?

because one version of incantatrix (i believe the old one) says that the school you ban when entering it you can still cast spells you knew from that school before entering, just no new ones may be learned.

[bjoern]

Well, there's the Arcane Transfiguration feat from Lost Empires of Faerun.



Three feats to get back a school isn't bad, but incantatrices are already pretty strapped for feats (considering they're going to want as much metamagic as they can get their grubby little hands on).

True. Im fine with losing a school. It just seems that the general consensus is that if your a conjurer who bans enchantment and evocation , all you have to do is learn enervation before you ban necromancy to focused study (incantatrix 1) and you can still use enervation since you already know it.

Everything I've read in PGtF and the PH about school specialization suggests this doesn't work.

[dascarletm]

Focused Specialist (let's go with abjuration) makes you ban three instead of two. Goodbye evocation and necromancy.

Red Wizard bans one more. Byebye illusion.

Wizard of High Sorcery bans one more. Goodbye, conjuration.

Incantatrix bans one more. Adios, transmutation.

All you have left now is abjuration and divination, neither of which you can ban: divination is not a legal ban (per the specialization rules), and abjuration is not a legal ban since you specialized in it (also per the specialization rules). Well, and universal spells, I suppose. Does that even get used outside of core?

EDIT: And enchantment. Learn to count, Fax.

I want to play this guy now.:smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are eight schools of magic, plus universal spells.

Specialist Diviner: One prohibited school, not Divination.
Incantatrix: "Thus, a specialized wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two." Three total prohibited schools, not Abjuration or Divination.
Retrain to Focused Specialist: One additional prohibited school, not Divination or Abjuration (four total).
Red Wizard: One additional prohibited school, not Divination (five total).
Wizard of High Sorcery: One additional prohibited school, not Divination (six total).
"You can create new flaws... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)" make a new flaw that adds a prohibited school. "A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the game master specifically allows it..." Gain a flaw to have one additional prohibited school, not Divination (seven total).

You have Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation as prohibited schools, so you can only cast Divination and Universal spells.

[sideswipe]

the flaw is a long shot, but retraining to switch focused school to divination is good. well done. we have a way (with co-operation) to get all but divination.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Got it! There's a flaw in Dragon issue 327 called Restricted Sorcery. It requires "the ability to cast spells without preparation" so Magical Training can qualify you for it. It gives you two prohibited schools, which cannot be Divination.

Wizard Focused Diviner: two prohibited schools (two total)
Restricted Sorcery: two prohibited schools (four total)
Incantatrix: one prohibited school (five total)
Red Wizard: one prohibited school (six total)
Wizard of High Sorcery: one prohibited school (seven total)

Every school except Divination is prohibited, totally RAW-legal!

[sideswipe]

Got it! There's a flaw in Dragon issue 327 called Restricted Sorcery. It requires "the ability to cast spells without preparation" so Magical Training can qualify you for it. It gives you two prohibited schools, which cannot be Divination.

Wizard Focused Diviner: two prohibited schools (two total)
Restricted Sorcery: two prohibited schools (four total)
Incantatrix: one prohibited school (five total)
Red Wizard: one prohibited school (six total)
Wizard of High Sorcery: one prohibited school (seven total)

Every school except Divination is prohibited, totally RAW-legal!

*starts a slow clap in awe*
wow.....