Design pre epic spells (Divine Spellcasting)

[Radialdiamond]

I've noticed in the deities and demigods book that a salient divine ability (divine spellcasting) that allows for 10-25th level spells. besides metamagic what would a 22nd level spell look like.

An example would be like Summon Monster 23.

Our group doesn't like the epic level handbook so we don't use epic spellcasting seeds or spellcraft DCs.

[With a box]

I think its for matamagiced spells

[Phelix-Mu]

I've noticed in the deities and demigods book that a salient divine ability (divine spellcasting) that allows for 10-25th level spells. besides metamagic what would a 22nd level spell look like.

An example would be like Summon Monster 23.

Our group doesn't like the epic level handbook so we don't use epic spellcasting seeds or spellcraft DCs.

The only sensible way to interpret a mechanical form of summon monster 23 would be for it to scale up the number of monsters from earlier levels. Why, you ask? Because the lists for what exactly appears on the summon lists appear to have been a bit arbitrary. Also, you would probably run out of meaningfully strong monsters well before summon monster 23.

So, if it were me, I'd avoid designing spells above (maybe) 10th. 9ths are already rather stupidly game-breaking, so there isn't much room for 10ths. And then you get to 11ths. If cosmic power with a few hoops was available at 9ths, and no-hoops cosmic power at 10ths, what do you do with 11ths?

In short, the metric for creating new spells and determining their level works by comparing the proposed spell to existing spells. I can pretty much assure you that there are few areas of power that 9ths don't somehow cover, and all those areas should probably be lumped into 10ths.

And as for the Epic Spellcasting from the ELH, without significant houseruling to fix its infirm design, it is borderline unusable (aside from a few very basic, unmitigated applications). So I wouldn't invest in ELH just for the epic spells and epic seeds.

[chaos_redefined]

Well, for 10th level spells, let's see what's already available. I know the wizard list better than the cleric one, so, gonna stick to that.

Any 6th level spell can be made swift. This includes some BFC spells from Conjuration and Evocation, such as Freezing Fog, Howling Chain and Thunder Field, as well as Greater Dispel Magic. (This assumes Quicken Spell).

Any 6th level spell can be made double. Twinned Greater Dispel Magic is the best option I can think of for that particular metamagic.

Any single-target 7th level spell can be chained. Mass Energy Absorption or Mass Energy Immunity, for instance. Mass Statue. There are some good buff spells out there that like this. Also, Mass Stun Ray. That should give your side a fair bit of breathing room, even if all the enemies save. And Mass Antimagic Ray solves combats far better than a lot of other options.

Any 7th level spell can be repeated. Repeating Choking Cobwebs screws things hard. Not much else comes to mind here.

Any 8th level spell which uses a ray can be split. Extended Split Stun Ray is gonna stun 2 people for 2 rounds, minimum. Split Evasculate Mass messes with the battlefield and drops that one guy to 25% of his starting hp. Split Extended Antimagic Ray is probably not that great a use, but it is an option. Split Blackfire isn't gonna do much to some creatures at this level, but still...

Ocular spell is an option with 8th level spells. Maze 2 targets in one round? And all the options I put in 8th. You can even mix and match.

Sculpt can go on 9th level spells. Sculpted Maw of Chaos? Sculpted Wail of the Banshee?

That's the baseline for 10th level spells. I personally think Sculpt is enough of an improvement on Maw of Chaos that it is perfectly fine to use it that way. And empowering it with 11th isn't a horrible option... Obviously, there should be some new spell effects made as well, but here's your baseline. (Without touching on the bull that is Shapechange).

For 11th level... Empowered Timestop? Don't mind if I do. Also, empowered Maw of Chaos.

[sideswipe]

there is that spell in frostburn (cant find it right now) that does 1d6 damage and adds an extra d6 per round its in effect. ignore any cap that can be argued.
i believe its first level, but if its 2nd or third take of a +1 or +2

add occular +2
add persist +6
quicken +4
empowered +2
maximised +3
still +1
silent +1
split ray +2
chain spell +3

so as a swift action you pick 2 targets for your occular spell, they both take 9 damage a round that increases by 9 each round for 24 hours. you also select basicly anything else within 60ft of the originals to take half that damage for 24 hours. you are still and silent when doing it. #

overkill? yes. but it was the only spell i could think of that i could apply all the metamagics to easily.

thats a 25th level spell. there are more powerful but hey. 2 billion damage to two targets each and 1 billion to all others near them (estimated damage) is a pretty good spell.

[Radialdiamond]

thanks for the responses!

i think ill just stick with 9th level spells using the 10th+ for metamagic

[Tvtyrant]

My group has a system (http://www.deviantart.com/download/477293483/spell_creation_chart_by_tvtyrant-d7w620b.xlsx?token=055d53577043cd75fc801045b7e217a 6c32e4ffd&ts=1408692256) that lets you research new spells by spending (100 GP and 1 week of researching) X (Spell level being researched). Each spell level has a number of points to craft from equal to the spell level, and there are reducers that let you boost it further. A spell level can only apply as many spell point reducers as the spell level, so no adding a ton of drawbacks to make a cantrip that summons a Balor.

[SiuiS]

I've noticed in the deities and demigods book that a salient divine ability (divine spellcasting) that allows for 10-25th level spells. besides metamagic what would a 22nd level spell look like.

An example would be like Summon Monster 23.

Our group doesn't like the epic level handbook so we don't use epic spellcasting seeds or spellcraft DCs.

Interesting, no one here actually considered higher level spells? A pity.

Canonically (in forgotten realms) these spells existed, but were banned by Mystra for REASONS and so now only epic spell casting with it's components and such can be done. This sets the stage for the basics; higher level crystallized spells (as opposed to fluid spells like the epic seed system) can duplicate existing epic spells. No rolling. No factors or mitigation. Just put together the spell and you have it, forever.

We have a few lying around, but I don't bother to write them down anymore. One of the perks of divine spell casting is that you can just about instantaneously and freely "research" a new spell. So if I want an effect that can't be achieved by existing spells I just do a little bit of mental math and presto. It helps having 66th level slots though.

I think I've used Stargate an improvement on the gate spell that is an almost inviolable and unretardable portal effect, Essential Echo which is a similar power to ice assassin, except it creates a duplicate of you or of a willing target based on lost threads of shadow realms and aborted timelines and universes (12th), I've taken the Unravelling void spell up to it's 17th incarnation, and haven't been able to learn any deeper secrets of the void to perfect it by another magnitude – it instantly undoes any spell of a lower spell level than itself by Unmaking the casting of the spell in the tapestry of reality. My comrade has a variant of Shapechange, I don't remember what spell it was based on (draconic shape change?) but it grants a whole lot of interesting capacities. We've collaborated on a shielding magic of 10th level that protects us from the rigors of divig in and out of various time streams, which we've done so much we've begun to be rubbed raw and erased by temporal friction (whenever we aren't fighting off legions of Inevitables). I have various spells of levels 3 to 15 which all hold, modify, transform and repeat other spells, used in sequence in Complex patterns to create giant magical sigils that enact world-shaking workings of arcane might (ie I create spells that act as creatures to hold spells until triggered so I can use Circle Magic without any help from anyone).

I'm currently slowly building the material components and arcane foci for a great working, a spell I peg at about the 25th level that will hold all of the material plane and the requires transitives and inner planes together after our plans destroy the axis mundi and send all of reality spinning apart as the Great wheel unbalances. That is as much a fancy plot device as a single magic, though. And I need a sure-fire way to punch through Vecna's divine realm into the very heart of the outlands as the only way to beat him and I don't think an actual epic spell will suffice, so I will probably make a "normal" spell of obscene level that uses obscure astrological conjunctions as arcane foci and may have a few cults or planets as material components.

[Fax Celestis]

The only sensible way to interpret a mechanical form of summon monster 23 would be for it to scale up the number of monsters from earlier levels. Why, you ask? Because the lists for what exactly appears on the summon lists appear to have been a bit arbitrary. Also, you would probably run out of meaningfully strong monsters well before summon monster 23.
Not that arbitrary. They're selected based on CR.

[Starmage21]

10th+ spell slots provided by the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat, or the Divine Spellcasting salient divine ability are meant for spells of 1-9th level with metamagic applied.

[sideswipe]

Not that arbitrary. They're selected based on CR.

summon monster 23 is probably heroniclies (bad spelling) level, cr 53 god killer

[SiuiS]

10th+ spell slots provided by the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat, or the Divine Spellcasting salient divine ability are meant for spells of 1-9th level with metamagic applied.

Then why do canonical 10th+ spells exist?

[Tvtyrant]

Then why do canonical 10th+ spells exist?

Different settings. I don't think a 10th level spell was published in 3.0/3.5/4E/5E.

[AuraTwilight]

Then why do canonical 10th+ spells exist?


Because those existed in older AD&D editions where Epic Spellcasting was not a thing and 9th level spells were way less powerful.

[Starmage21]

Then why do canonical 10th+ spells exist?


Because those existed in older AD&D editions where Epic Spellcasting was not a thing and 9th level spells were way less powerful.

This is essentially the gist of it. There are no 10th or higher level spells in 3e+. All those 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells that did appear in D&D canon happened in 2nd Edition AD&D. If I recall correctly, 11th and 12th level spells were in the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set only. Where 10th level spells appeared there, there were also 10th level spells in the Dark Sun - Dragon Kings book.

[Dunsparce]

One of my DM's created a pre-epic SNA X for my Girlfriend's Druid/Holt Warden. Basically just Elder Storm Elemental, 1d3 SNA IX options, and 1d4+1 SNA VIII and lower options. Granted it's acquired via an artifact and we're basically collecting artifacts to fight a demigod.