What sort of feat should a Farmer have?

[CyberThread]

I don't mean like chicken zombie b/s, or something like endurance, but what sort of options would a farmer have if they were skilled beyond the lame bonus to endurance checks?

[Rubik]

Nobody in a D&D world should ever have an NPC class -- unless they're abusing it in some way, such as with Infested With Chickens. Campaign settings are ridiculously dangerous, and food is far better served via Create Food and Water traps.

So how about Improved Initiative, or Precocious Apprentice?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Most non-adventurers will be making either Craft or Profession checks to make a living, so Skill Focus would make the most sense.

[torrasque666]

Nobody in a D&D world should ever have an NPC class -- unless they're abusing it in some way, such as with Infested With Chickens. Campaign settings are ridiculously dangerous, and food is far better served via Create Food and Water traps.

So how about Improved Initiative, or Precocious Apprentice?

Now hold on there. This isn't necessarily a Tippyverse, and you're telling me that you expect each and every single person you meet to be a Fighter or a Rogue or a Cleric? If everyone had adventuring classes, what makes your party any different?

[Rubik]

Now hold on there. This isn't necessarily a Tippyverse, and you're telling me that you expect each and every single person you meet to be a Fighter or a Rogue or a Cleric? If everyone had adventuring classes, what makes your party any different?Who could survive in a world where 99% of the creatures are vicious, nasty tempered, and magical?

Evolution would ensure that nobody who couldn't survive would.

So, yes, I'd expect everyone to either be a PC class or an optimized NPC class (ie, expert or adept, mostly).

Commoners just don't make sense when friggin' housecats can one-shot them with a sneeze.

[torrasque666]

Who could survive in a world where 99% of the creatures are vicious, nasty tempered, and magical?

Evolution would ensure that nobody who couldn't survive would.

Not when the world is protected by heroes. and magic. and heroic magic. that kinda **** helps keep Dibbit McDirtFarmer alive.

[CyberThread]

Yeah , stop feeding the defence industry, just becuse big bad beholders are in the underdark, doesnt mean they weill ever come to City America. Us commoners can defend each other and become citizen warriors during the weekend and do our part in protecting our city.

[Nousos]

Except when your common animals are all capable of killing commoners at will, you are probably going to need something to tip the scales. You can either toil in the dirt and make just enough to eat and maybe hire someone to defend you a few times a month, or you can teach yourself to do it and take all the sweet loot "that the strange laws of the universe say you must get if you kill something, nobody knows why" for yourself.

[RhoTheWanderer]

Most non-adventurers will be making either Craft or Profession checks to make a living, so Skill Focus would make the most sense.
I second that notion. After all, if you look at the community generation charts in the DMG, most tiny hamlets are lucky to have one level one wizard (let alone a whole slew of wizards able to cast fabricate over and over again). Also, spellcasting is expensive, so you'll still have plenty of normal blacksmiths churning out horseshoe after horseshoe and sword after sword. Likewise, while there will be Heroes' Feast spells, most people won't be able to afford them. Therefore, normal conventional farmers will still be common (as well as probably poor. Medieval European serfs=sharecroppers that are often exploited by the "noble class"). Furthermore, without access to advanced medical care (read as: magic. Even Cure Minor Wounds would be probably be expensive for a commoner.) or basic knowledge of how disease occurs, many people would die from various minor infections (*cough*cat scratches that come in contact with pig feces on the farm). Albeit, this does assume real world logic, not 3.5eD&D logic.

Edit: Plus, while now days many families only have 1-3 children, it wasn't all that uncommon in pre-industrial agrarian societies for a family to have alot more children. It made up for the mortality rate, and it provided more workers on the farm who mostly asked just for room and board. Heck, my dad grew up on a farm in eastern Wisconsin back around the 70's or so, and he had 11 other siblings. We humans can breed like jack rabbits if we need to do so (and sometimes when we don't need to do so).

[Arbane]

D&D Rules for non adventuring stuff turn out to be borked. Film at 11.

Anyway, to answer the original poster's question, Skill Focus: Profession/Craft would be a safe, if boring choice.

[Mithril Leaf]

Who could survive in a world where 99% of the creatures are vicious, nasty tempered, and magical?

Evolution would ensure that nobody who couldn't survive would.

So, yes, I'd expect everyone to either be a PC class or an optimized NPC class (ie, expert or adept, mostly).

Commoners just don't make sense when friggin' housecats can one-shot them with a sneeze.

Evolution would also ensure that the dominant species would be whichever the most apt to survive, reproduce, and remove competition is. Which is most likely some form of spawning intelligent undead. Probably the Shadow, but maybe a wight. Thus if you have a world with a population that isn't just spawning undead, you probably have some NPC classed individuals. Or you have a Tippyverse.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I also had this handy handbook open: The Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook)

[Vaz]

Who could survive in a world where 99% of the creatures are vicious, nasty tempered, and magical?

Evolution would ensure that nobody who couldn't survive would.

So, yes, I'd expect everyone to either be a PC class or an optimized NPC class (ie, expert or adept, mostly).

Commoners just don't make sense when friggin' housecats can one-shot them with a sneeze.

Why would said creatures attack all the time? You're stronger than bugs, so why don't you go and hunt down every single bug in the world? Because, you know, that's exactly what you're saying. The creatures just don't have the interest in doing so.

A farmer is unlikely to be optimized - they're using at best, an NPC non-elite array, or maybe even just the standard array (10 10 10 11 11 11). They're not "rolled randomly" they are the standard for their race, which is as above. This means that they have 2 skill points as a commoner, or maybe, as an expert, 6 skill points. How he became proficient with armour or to get the same BAB as a MARSHAL or NINJA though is questionable, and why he is particularly skillful, with a high will save, less so. As is the ability to choose any 10 class skills. The class skills chosen suggests someone trained to become an expert in that particular field - being able to pick up things like Knowledges, Lucid Dreaming, etc or other "trained only" skills is a bit of an issue that I can't see a farmer actually having.

As a farmer, he's likely extremely capable of making a profit on his animals, but he needs to take care of them - Handle Animal and Profession (Farmer). He might be extremely capable at one or the other - Skill Focus in one or the other, more likely Profession (Farming). If he is a cowboy, however, he might have Handle Animal and Ride, with either a skill focus in one or the other depending on what's necessary.

Also, you've got to remember that in some parts. For example, a Cowboy Farmhand might well have a Ride check of 4 - that way he can ride with just his knees without having to pass that check. However, there's not actually that much which is necessary for a massively high Ride check. A Masterwork tool costs 50gp, which is normally out of the commoners GP bracket, but if he's part of a farm, might not be too far out of the price range. A Human raised as such, might have the "Saddleback" feat, which means that they'll always make the Soft fall check, but short of that, unless you're expecting your cowboy to fall off his saddle a lot, he's not going to need any real ranks in it whatsoever. He can take 10 to guide his mount with his knees so that he can use his lassoo, or whatever. If he's going across some dangerous terrain which might cause the mount to rear or whatever and cause him to fall, then yes, that increased Ride check will do him favours.

There are only a few trained skills, which rarely have an application in a combat situation - Knowledge, Autohypnosis, Handle Animal, Disable Device, Lucid Dreaming, Martial Lore, Open Lock, Profession, Decipher Script, UMD, UPD, Spellcraft, Psicraft, Sleight of Hand, Truespeak, and Tumble.

Of those, Knowledge, Decipher Script, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Open Lock, and Handle Animal are only of real use to a commoner - Autohypnosis has several combat related feats, but its one out of combat feats is reliant on having it not only as a class skill, but with a bonus to wisdom and possibly a focus in it (Skill Focus). At 1st level, an NPC Expert has 4 ranks in it, +3 from Skill, and +1 from 12-13 Wisdom using the nonelite array. This means that they can take 10 should they meet the prequisites for it, but they don't even need the Skill Focus, unless they're attempting to ignore Caltrop Wounds - and why they'd need that I'd wonder. The skill focus is there for when they need to think under pressure etc "distracted or threatened" which can allow them to recall things that they've read perfectly.

Skill Focus (Profession; Farmer) turns a profit for a Farmer an extra 1.5gp /week in money. A Farmer with 4 ranks and SF turns from making a minimum of 2gp to 4gp, and their max from 12 to 13gp for a weeks work. Assuming an average of 10.5 for a d20, a farmer goes from 364gp profit to 442gp - that's a profit of 78gp/year, or the cost of a new horse.

[Rubik]

Why would said creatures attack all the time? You're stronger than bugs, so why don't you go and hunt down every single bug in the world? Because, you know, that's exactly what you're saying. The creatures just don't have the interest in doing so.If a commoner homestead can be wiped out by a small clowder of feral cats, they've got to be easy meat, and anything even remotely carnivorous and hungry can devour as many as they want, with little to no threat to themselves.

As a metaphor, would you (IRL) rather eat a ready-made feast, or try to stalk, attack, and kill a rabid hippo with, at most, a knife?

[Jeff the Green]

Aside from Skill Focus, Great Fortitude and Toughness aren't out of the question. Being able to survive 75% more injuries or having an additional 10% chance of kicking an infection is nothing to sneeze at when you have little access to healing magic. (I think there are some feats like Great Fortitude but with a bigger bonus in a more restricted set of circumstances exist and would be better, but I don't remember them and I'm too lazy to look it up.)


If a commoner homestead can be wiped out by a small clowder of feral cats, they've got to be easy meat, and anything even remotely carnivorous and hungry can devour as many as they want, with little to no threat to themselves.

As a metaphor, would you (IRL) rather eat a ready-made feast, or try to stalk, attack, and kill a rabid hippo with, at most, a knife?

If a wolf pack decides it wants to eat any given human that walks around in its territory, it will. Wolves have evolved to not do that because humans react with extreme violence and disturbingly canny plans when one of their friends is eaten.

[Rubik]

If a wolf pack decides it wants to eat any given human that walks around in its territory, it will. Wolves have evolved to not do that because humans react with extreme violence and disturbingly canny plans when one of their friends is eaten.But those are reasonably capable humans, not pitiful, half-starved rock farmers with "class features" that are far worse than even basic Humanoid hit dice, with terrible stats and skills.

[Spore]

It depends. If you want a "template" for all farmers, Profession (Farmer) would be the best. But farmers have different backstories - much like PC or NPCs with other NPC classes. An elderly farmer might have served as militia and has feats that give him mastery over some farm tools or weapons improvised weapons or a simple weapon focus. The twenty-something farmhand might have improved unarmed strike and takes up boxing to get the attention of the females and some extra income. His wife might be pious and have Skill Focus Knowledge Religion and could tell you about cultist activities in the area. Her son might be bullied and taken levels in adept instead of farmer - giving him superior social skills (to be used to avoid bullies but also haggle his father's wares at the market). His sister might be a talent with animals and get herself an animal companion and the fitting SF Handle Animal.

[Vaz]

If a commoner homestead can be wiped out by a small clowder of feral cats, they've got to be easy meat, and anything even remotely carnivorous and hungry can devour as many as they want, with little to no threat to themselves.

As a metaphor, would you (IRL) rather eat a ready-made feast, or try to stalk, attack, and kill a rabid hippo with, at most, a knife?

Depends if it it's worth my while. A lion will hunt wildebeest, but if they fight back, they tend to slink off. The threat of pain, or even loss of life is a massive risk for the average housecat animal. They rarely have the single minded determination to fight to death unless there is some other reason - starving, or protecting babies etc.

A housecat can be intimidated away. This is RPG and simulation aspect of the game, even if you don't succeed on the check.

In regards to combat, it is just as likely for the cat to die if he doesn't kill the human, i think the maths was worked at.

[Rubik]

His sister might be a talent with animals and get herself an animal companion and the fitting SF Handle Animal.Or, more likely, Wild Cohort.

[loodwig]

Last night the local Duke joined the party in fighting to save his men when trolls ambushed us while running through the forest. The guy had like 4 levels in "noble" and was armed with a falchion. He wasn't super impressive in combat of course, but he managed to not die, much like you'd expect. Not every lord is Ned Stark, but that doesn't mean they're worthless either. If you feel that your world is too dangerous for the commoners to survive, then perhaps throwing a PC level into some of your named NPCs wouldn't be a bad idea (I do it often enough). Then again, there's something to be said about the heroes being true "heroes" compared to a simple farmer. Above about lvl 5, no guard or townsmen will pose a threat to you... but a dragon surely will. And if dragons are as common as commoners (suddenly having flashbacks to skyrim), then your world might need some tweaking.

To the OP, I'd say focus on skills, but make them proficient in something. If I were the proud man farming for my family, I'd probably be reasonably good in a fight if I had to be. I wouldn't shriek if a mountain lion came onto my plot, but I'd also probably be outmatched, even if I got a good hit in with a pitchfork or other gardening implement. I figure most commoners are like that: not totally helpless against reality, but totally helpless against the supernatural and extraordinary.

[Jeff the Green]

But those are reasonably capable humans, not pitiful, half-starved rock farmers with "class features" that are far worse than even basic Humanoid hit dice, with terrible stats and skills.

We may have differing definitions of "capable". Even level 1 commoners with the standard array are going to be able to set up ambushes and traps for predators, to use ranged weapons to their advantage, and to gang up on them. Besides, a small settlement with a predator problem probably won't deal wth it themselves but will seek protection from their lord or hire specialists the way France dealt with la bête du Gévaudan. Yes, a wolf pack may be able to terrorize a village and may even be mostly invulnerable to the villagers' attempts to kill them, but they're still going to die when the hunters come.

[Vaz]

From a pure optimization aspect, sure.

Butunderstand is full of unoptimized NPC's, that is what makes the PC so important.

A PC as far as I can understand doesn't go 'ding, I am now a level 9 wizard, with the Widen Spell feat', it is simply a wizard who has grown more powerful and has learned to cast more powerful spells and can even modify some to affect a wider area.

Similarly, a Commoner doesn't go through life and pick up Wild Cohort because that is the most powerful option, it goes through life and experiences things, doing things it is good at, by virtue of its abilities and skills, that are either taught to it, or it has innately. That skill focus: profession farmer might not be the most powerful feat when it can take a couple of flaws and work its way up to 9th level spells, but the farmer is who he is. He might be an extremely poor farmer, with no ranks in Profession Farmer, or he might be an exceedingly good one, where he can pick up nearly 450 gp a year.

Alternativvely, he might a blacksmith, who is asked to turn out a sword and shield of the finest quality. He might have profession blacksmith, but without Weaponsmithing, he might struggle to make the order, maybe even ruining the equipment. A highly capable one might have a check of 21+ with his apprentice helping him, which allows 210sp. An unskilled one, without a +5 to his check cannot even take 10, so might fail by 5 or more.

To become a better blacksmith, they do not think 'i'm going to go adventuring' they think 'I need to practise harder'. The nearest they might be able to do is replace their dotted around skill points via retraining. It is a bit daft that retraining your skills from k. Nature makes you thicker as you shift them into Blacksmithing, but thems the rules.

It just so happens that someone who adventures becomes better, and does so at an accelerate rate. If someone was to join the fantasy equivalent of the royal marines, they would spend 32 weeks training to overcome a few lower level challenges, such as completing assault courses while fatigued (stressing them out so that they cannot just 'take 10'), or surviving for 5 days on low food and sleep. Those that get in are capable of passing those tests are those who are either higher level already, consistently lucky, or improve themselves through the training 'leveling up'. Meanwhile, they might retrain their civvy habits, such as Profession: Baker or whatever.

Those that aren't capable are booted out, those who cannot retrain quick enough, or level up quick enough are on civi street, where they can either retrain back into Civi life, or continue with practising to get into the military.

The military might retrain the marines feats, from SF, to WF(SA80) say.

[Twilightwyrm]

Who could survive in a world where 99% of the creatures are vicious, nasty tempered, and magical?

Evolution would ensure that nobody who couldn't survive would.

So, yes, I'd expect everyone to either be a PC class or an optimized NPC class (ie, expert or adept, mostly).

Commoners just don't make sense when friggin' housecats can one-shot them with a sneeze.

First off, the house cats killing commoners things is mostly fanciful conjecture. While it is quite a bit more possible then in reality, attacks of opportunity typically prevent that sort of thing from happening.
Second, removing all references to magical beasts, you are basically describing the state of medieval Europe, which, weirdly enough, had plenty of people one might accurately describe as "commoners". That is why fiefdoms existed. Some nasty monster, monstrous raiding party, or the like spotted in the area? Take yourself and your family inside the keep of your local feudal lord (you know, the one that either had class levels them self, or has a small army of people with class levels) and let them take care of the problem.
Third, the problem you describe isn't actually alleviated by switching everyone over to PC classes. Your average 1st level NPC is going to be killed by a pack of wolves, a rampaging bear, a marauding Chimera, or an orc raiding party without noticeably more effort than one that happens to be a 1st level commoner. Hell, if they elected to swap in wizard or sorcerer, they have about the same chance of being killed by the house cat as the commoner (because, if you'll recall, they do not have the same stats as adventurers). The problem you seem to be describing seems to be one of NPCs being under-leveled compared to the perceived threats of a campaign world, not the wrong class. And wouldn't you know it, but the DM's guide actually takes time to point out that an NPC living out on the frontier, who would need to routinely defend them-self, is going to have more class levels than one in a relatively safe location. So if you want to emphasize them being commoners, do what the PF NPC Gallery does and start them out with a level of commoner, but then add an additional level of warrior, rogue, expert, fighter or whatever other class you think fits their environment.

[SinsI]

Don't underestimate physical abilities of farmers. Standard array is for weak city dwellers; farmers are full of men with Str and Con 16-18.

[Vaz]

Strength 18?

Not sure how you get that.

13, maybe. Just because the carryweight table might be a relatively inaccurate way of judging strength does mean to say that a relatively high strength character can do x (I think it works out that a housecat can carry what a str 15 character might struggle). Str 13 Farmers are quite a lot stronger than Str 8 bookist city dwellers. Then again Str 13 Barmen and Guardsmen are stronger than Str 8 city dwellers, or Str 8 country folk. It just so happens that a Str 8 country lad is a bit rarer than one in the city, but more to do with the environment encouraging particular aspects of life. A city dedicated to making money might have a few more trader character, with less fighter types, encouraging spending money, while a borderland castle guarding a mountain pass against raiding bugears might have a few brainy kind: stores and admin, say, with a Commander in charge and making plans. He might be a strategist or general, with abilities determined by his experience, while the rest are mostly beefy fighters, with class levels like Warrior, and maybe even Fighter, Barbarian, Marshal, Warblade, Crusader, or maybe even Paladin or Hexblade depending on the bent of the race/military training.

[hamishspence]

(I think it works out that a housecat can carry what a str 15 character might struggle).

How are you getting that?

A D&D Housecat is only Str 3 (and, as a Tiny Quadruped, can lift 3/4 of what a Str 3 Medium Biped could).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging

So, it could lift 3/4 of 30 lb (22.5 lb) as a Heavy Load, and 3/4 of 60lb (45lb) "off the ground" but only stagger around with it at a rate of 5 ft per round.

[Vaz]

Eh, I was trying to remember an old discussion on another forum regarding it. Misremembered, osrry.

[Spore]

Don't underestimate physical abilities of farmers. Standard array is for weak city dwellers; farmers are full of men with Str and Con 16-18.

Standard array is also made for people without any character or profile.

I estimate a Farmer would have Str 13-14 Dex 10-14 Con 12+ but to stay within non elite array his mental stats suffer. Now an Int 9 Farmer isn't what you would call dumb. He just has no concept of book knowledge and no need for that. His appraise checks are dampened and maybe he isn't a people person (Cha 7-8).

I always find the 3x11/3x10 array to be dull and idiotic. If you want to simplify a standard NPC give them 10 across the board. If you want to accentuate, do so manually and in larger increments than +1/-1.

Example arrays:
12/8/14/9/10/7 This farmer is clumsy, strong and incredibly sturdy, but he has no sense of diplomacy or empathy. He doesn't shun book knowledge but he has no real concept for it.
9/13/12/9/8/12 His wife is a lot more dexterous and still fit but slightly irrational and charming. She has the same problem with knowledge as her husband.

Both are not the pinnacle of humanity but not bland and uncreative as the standard array. Keep in mind that these stat arrays are not to be mismatched with gender stereotyping. There's a difference between stereotypes and clichés. You could have a butch female farmer and her husband the smart but frail merchant. But this is an example of interesting NPC farmer arrays.

[hamishspence]

Eh, I was trying to remember an old discussion on another forum regarding it. Misremembered, osrry.

It's still on the strong side - animal strengths in general may be a bit extreme in D&D.

[Vaz]

If cats have 3 strength, how do they kill humans, when it is -4 to damage? Bit sleepy, so might be missing something.

[SinsI]

Strength 18?

Not sure how you get that.

Manual labor is a pretty good exercise method, and they are better fed, too.
It is common that farmers or blacksmiths are physically stronger than warriors - i.e. Conan was, originally, a blacksmith.

[hamishspence]

If cats have 3 strength, how do they kill humans, when it is -4 to damage? Bit sleepy, so might be missing something.

Minimum damage 1 with a successful attack, no matter the negative modifiers:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#minimumDamage

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't mean like chicken zombie b/s, or something like endurance, but what sort of options would a farmer have if they were skilled beyond the lame bonus to endurance checks?

Jack of All Trades (+5 skill points) seems fairly promising.


Nobody in a D&D world should ever have an NPC class -- unless they're abusing it in some way, such as with Infested With Chickens. Campaign settings are ridiculously dangerous, and food is far better served via Create Food and Water traps.

Setting aside for a moment the wisdom of picking any particular class, NPCs don't get to choose such things (the DM is making them when world-building after all), the classes are descriptive of who and what they are. So that Farmer didn't pick Commoner 1, he just is a commoner 1 by virtue of life experience/accident of birth.

This is similar to the sense in which the people populating the world who aren't the players have no say in what race they happen to have been born.


Who could survive in a world where 99% of the creatures are vicious, nasty tempered, and magical?

Societies and Communities. Any individual Commoner, Warrior, Adept, Expert, or Aristocrat might be comparatively weak, but they become strong through teamwork.

So yeah, a black bear is dangerous to 1 Warrior. But 6 warriors mounted, equipped with long spears, bows, and a pack of hunting dogs? Not so much now. Magic is powerful, but there's (almost always) a mundane work around that a group can implement to overcome even magic. Probably at a massive disadvantage, but nothing, nothing, is impossible.


But those are reasonably capable humans, not pitiful, half-starved rock farmers with "class features" that are far worse than even basic Humanoid hit dice, with terrible stats and skills.

Humans are relatively defenseless physically, having little muscle mass and no natural weaponry. Absent any planning or thought are likely to be devoured or killed by most carnivorous wildlife. Humanity wins because of planning and tool use.

Back to the original question, besides Jack of All Trades, I think you could just randomly pick a feat. Different people pick up different tricks.

[Vaz]

18 is one less than a Black Bear though. According wikipedia, a cub was seen flipping a stone that a 21 strength creature would find heavy as an example.

The absolute limit of human strength is more likely to be found in a job requiring immense strength, sure, but not as a rule. 18 Strength is also typical for that of an trained Orc Warrior 4 (nonelite array) if focusing on Strength.

[Haluesen]

If cats have 3 strength, how do they kill humans, when it is -4 to damage? Bit sleepy, so might be missing something.

If I remember the theory correctly, it was because all attacks do at least 1 damage and cats get 3 attacks per round. Combine that with great stealth skill bonuses and the tendency to roam in packs and you have some sudden death to characters with low health.



On the topic itself, I generally agree with either Skill Focus in either Handle Animal or Profession (farmer), Animal Affinity, or Endurance. But I know someone already mentioned The Commoner's Handbook, and that I think has the best advice for making flavorful commoners or just to make a fairly effective farmer or worker. I highly recommend anyone read through it.

[DeltaEmil]

If cats have 3 strength, how do they kill humans, when it is -4 to damage? Bit sleepy, so might be missing something.Cats have a good attack bonus from their Dexterity and size (2 claw attacks +4 and a bite attack -1). Every attack deals 1 damage at minimum, even if penalties to the damage rolls reduce the damage result to 0 or less. A commoner normally doesn't get maximum hp at first level since a commoner is normally an NPC and not bestowed with a player character class. A cat has an AC of 14, making it rather difficult for a commoner to hit the cat with an attack of opportunity when it enters the commoner's space, and with further attacks.

[Coidzor]

Except when your common animals are all capable of killing commoners at will, you are probably going to need something to tip the scales.

Pigs, cows, horses, donkeys, mules... they can all kill a grown man. Generally they're not particularly interested in doing so, but they are all capable of doing so, or at least grievously injuring a person.

Even a good-sized dog can on its own, if it's really serious and the person doesn't have a decent ability to defend themselves.

[Arbane]

How often is a peasant going to be 30 years old and still level 1?

[Vaz]

Pretty much 99% of the time.

If theyre anything special, then they're unlikely to be a peasant, by deed or station.

[Rubik]

Setting aside for a moment the wisdom of picking any particular class, NPCs don't get to choose such things (the DM is making them when world-building after all), the classes are descriptive of who and what they are. So that Farmer didn't pick Commoner 1, he just is a commoner 1 by virtue of life experience/accident of birth.

This is similar to the sense in which the people populating the world who aren't the players have no say in what race they happen to have been born.The problem is that any world with the kinds of threats regularly encountered by people in a D&D world (such as those in the R.A. Salvatore novels) will obliterate anyone with commoner levels, and so commoners will die very quickly. It's a matter of natural selection. In a world where life-ending threats lurk everywhere, you'd best be able to defend yourself physically or magically, or have the mental stats to pull off a Tucker's Kobolds, or you're gonna die.

Groups of starving, completely uneducated peasants aren't going to last long.

[Coidzor]

Groups of starving, completely uneducated peasants aren't going to last long.

Most of those are somebody's loot though, so there's the reprisal from their evil overlord to consider for anything past a certain level of intelligence.

[atemu1234]

Not when the world is protected by heroes. and magic. and heroic magic. that kinda **** helps keep Dibbit McDirtFarmer alive.

Is there a hero for every housecat?

[torrasque666]

No, no there isn't. But a housecat has about the same chance of killing a commoner as it does being killed by said commoner. A commoner with even 12 strength(probably a farmer of some sort, like the one being discussed) only needs to land a single hit to disable a housecat. A farmer likely has a sickle as his one weapon. A sickle deals, on average, 3.5 damage to a housecat's 2 HP. a house cat deals 1 damage, always to a commoner's 4 hp(is there any rule that says only PC classes get max HP at 1st level? Not to my knowledge). A commoner has 1-3 turns to hit the cat once​. Is a cat likely to kill a commoner? Yes. Is a commoner just as likely to kill a cat? Also yes.

[atemu1234]

No, no there isn't. But a housecat has about the same chance of killing a commoner as it does being killed by said commoner. A commoner with even 12 strength(probably a farmer of some sort, like the one being discussed) only needs to land a single hit to disable a housecat. A farmer likely has a sickle as his one weapon. A sickle deals, on average, 3.5 damage to a housecat's 2 HP. a house cat deals 1 damage, always to a commoner's 4 hp(is there any rule that says only PC classes get max HP at 1st level? Not to my knowledge). A commoner has 1-3 turns to hit the cat once​. Is a cat likely to kill a commoner? Yes. Is a commoner just as likely to kill a cat? Also yes.

It says only PCs do. So on average 2.5 hp for a commoner.

[Coidzor]

Most housecats will start off with an Indifferent attitude. Part of what makes keeping them fed if they start to get hungry important, lest they turn on their masters.

And probably the Commoners also have a lot more dogs around than we'd otherwise think, to deter the cats from doing anything too foolhardy.

...Actually, has anyone compared the numbers between cats and dogs?

Dog
avg 6 HP (7 hits fromt the cat to drop to -1, 6 hits to drop to 0 and possibly cause to flee)
+3 Init
40 move speed
-3 Grapple
AC 15 (cat needs to roll a 9 or better to hit with claws, a 16 or better to hit with bite)
1 Bite +2 to hit, 1d4+1 damage average damage 3.5
Spot/Listen +5 (cat has +3 over dog not hearing it, +11 over dog not spotting it)

Cat
avg 2 HP (expected: 1 hit from the dog to drop to -1, minimum damage from 1 hit will drop cat to 0 and possibly cause to flee)
+2 Init (dog is slightly more likely to go first, barring a surprise round due to the cat stealthing in)
30 move speed (cat is not going to outrun the dog, may be able to outmaneuver given the smaller size, though)
-12 grapple (if they get into a grapple, then the dog has an effective +9 relative to the cat)
AC 14 (dog needs to roll a 12 or better to hit)
2 claws +4 (1 damage), 1 bite -1 (1 damage)
Tiny - has to enter opponent's square, provoking AoO.
Hide +16, Move Silently +8


Cat's DPR 60% of 1 damage + 60% of 1 damage + 25% of 1 damage = .6+.6+.25 = 1.45
70% of 1 damage on a charge(can it charge?) = .7
60% of 1 damage when entering opponent's square otherwise = .6

Full round attacks to drop Dog based on DRP = 5

Dog's DPR 45% of 3.5 damage = 1.575
55% of 3.5 damage on a charge = 1.925

Rounds/Attacks to drop Cat based on DPR = 2


No, no there isn't. But a housecat has about the same chance of killing a commoner as it does being killed by said commoner. A commoner with even 12 strength(probably a farmer of some sort, like the one being discussed) only needs to land a single hit to disable a housecat. A farmer likely has a sickle as his one weapon. A sickle deals, on average, 3.5 damage to a housecat's 2 HP. a house cat deals 1 damage, always to a commoner's 4 hp(is there any rule that says only PC classes get max HP at 1st level? Not to my knowledge). A commoner has 1-3 turns to hit the cat once​. Is a cat likely to kill a commoner? Yes. Is a commoner just as likely to kill a cat? Also yes.

NPCs don't get max HP for their first HD. That's part of why in published modules and adventures those first level orc warriors don't all have the same HP despite having the same Constitution score and HD size.

I can't recall exactly where it's written, though.

[torrasque666]

It says only PCs do. So on average 2.5 hp for a commoner.

Can I get a source on that, one that explicitly says NPC's don't? Because all I have is :
For his or her first Hit Die, a 1st-level character gets the maximum hit points rather than rolling.
Which says character, not player character. A NPC is still a character.

Scratch that. Found it. DMG Pg 110: Elite and Average characters. However, it implies that their HP is still rolled, rather than just averaged. So 4 HP commoners are still possible, just not the average. My point about a commoner really only needing one hit to disable a cat still stands though.

[Spore]

How often is a peasant going to be 30 years old and still level 1?

By normal D&D demographics about 100%. And yes, D&D is a poor system to simulate NPC growth. Still in my world (and when I use the NPC codex from PF) experienced older humans have up to 4 levels of NPC classes.

And if you fear that 1. level PCs are too weak to defeat them? Yes, that's how it should be. You don't just come straight out of Wizard Academy and beat up Veterans by the dozen.

[Haluesen]

No, no there isn't. But a housecat has about the same chance of killing a commoner as it does being killed by said commoner. A commoner with even 12 strength(probably a farmer of some sort, like the one being discussed) only needs to land a single hit to disable a housecat. A farmer likely has a sickle as his one weapon. A sickle deals, on average, 3.5 damage to a housecat's 2 HP. a house cat deals 1 damage, always to a commoner's 4 hp(is there any rule that says only PC classes get max HP at 1st level? Not to my knowledge). A commoner has 1-3 turns to hit the cat once​. Is a cat likely to kill a commoner? Yes. Is a commoner just as likely to kill a cat? Also yes.

Another thing to take into account there is that the cat gets 3 attacks, so 3 fair chances to do damage. If the commoner misses that one attack, then the cat has more than a 50% chance to disable the commoner.

Then again that is why there are trained dogs, slings, and persuasive bowls of milk. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Another thing to take into account there is that the cat gets 3 attacks, so 3 fair chances to do damage. If the commoner misses that one attack, then the cat has more than a 50% chance to disable the commoner.

Then again that is why there are trained dogs, slings, and persuasive bowls of milk. :smallbiggrin:And balls of yarn, and sacrificial children...

[Mithril Leaf]

A farmer's most valuable asset in defending his farm is probably his selectively bred mule who's father drank from the runoff of the wizard's tower alchemy drain.
A Magebred Mule that's for helping defend the farmer would probably have 2 hooves at 1d6+5 damage, +6 to hit, 18 AC (leather armor is 40 GP, but infinitely reusable) and a carrying capacity of 400 pounds at light load. Something like that can easily kick out a wolf, and humans can spare the points to learn to ride them. Only 56 GP each, and you can just let them graze. It drops down to 16 if you already have the armor.

[Haluesen]

And balls of yarn, and sacrificial children...

Heh the ball of yawn would merely postpone the inevitable. At least the milk bowl would buy more time to run. :smallamused:

That said, I gotta disagree with your general sentiments in this thread. There are a lot of threatening things in most D&D worlds it is true, but the point of heroes is to make sure those people live. And walled cities are perfectly well defended from standard threats. Yeah there are those small villages that end up destroyed from monsters and beasts, but that really is the exception rather than the norm. And in my campaign setting at least, commoners and similar NPC classes are fairly optimized to protect from low CR monsters, animals, and a-hole adventuring parties. There is a lot to be said for proper planning and the advice laid out in The Commoners Handbook. It works for more than just commoners after all. :smallsmile:

[Lans]

Shape soulmeld:Lucky Dice would be good. Basically +1 to all rolls

[Rubik]

Shape soulmeld:Lucky Dice would be good. Basically +1 to all rolls+1 to all rolls, provisionally. You only get one roll at a time, unless you randomly roll a 7 on your 2d6, and you might not even use that bonus on the round when you get it (such as choosing a bonus to saves and not being targeted).

[Vaz]

A farmer is unlikely to be put into a situation when he cannot 'take 10', which is enough to pass most checks he would be required to make.

[Vogonjeltz]

The problem is that any world with the kinds of threats regularly encountered by people in a D&D world (such as those in the R.A. Salvatore novels) will obliterate anyone with commoner levels, and so commoners will die very quickly. It's a matter of natural selection. In a world where life-ending threats lurk everywhere, you'd best be able to defend yourself physically or magically, or have the mental stats to pull off a Tucker's Kobolds, or you're gonna die.

Groups of starving, completely uneducated peasants aren't going to last long.

I haven't read the Salvatore novels, but my impression is that they explore the adventures of adventurers, not regular folks. I'm inclined to think running away might be a common past time for those who encounter wild things. (i.e. The Run feat and a good Con score).

[Rubik]

I haven't read the Salvatore novels, but my impression is that they explore the adventures of adventurers, not regular folks.While true, there were plenty of places in the books that showed "regular folks" getting slaughtered by the dozen by both low- and high-level threats. Several large families got obliterated by a couple of barghests, for instance.

Pretty much anything above CR 2 could wipe out several villages on its own before high level characters could make their way there, and the world is chock-full of them.


I'm inclined to think running away might be a common past time for those who encounter wild things. (i.e. The Run feat and a good Con score).That seems like the best plan, really. Fleeing is about the best most commoner-types can hope for without a deus ex machina arriving in the nick of time.

[Vaz]

A 6th level Outsider, with the Strength that of a capable Orc Warrior, Spell-like Abilities, Darkvision, and 3 natural attacks is "low-levelled"?

Admittedly, it is in the realms which involves some pretty high level folk, but while I've only got a couple of Forgotten Realms Adventures, one of those is Sons of Gruumsh, intended for Level 4 characters.

A 6th level Human Bard is the owner of the biggest and most prominent tavern in the city of Melvaunt, while the Bouncer is a Human Warrior 6. These are people who have to deal with Drunken Sailors, and Mercenaries, like the Dwarves found later on - Fighter 3's, or the Bravo's - the "toughest thugs" in the employ of someone who would gain eventual control of the city. Not everyone in FR is running around with Elminster type levels.

[malonkey1]

Another thought here is, why are we assuming all the farmers will be Commoner 1? In truly dangerous areas, there's plenty chance of farmers needing to protect their livestocks, even from a small pack of wolves, earning then some XP over time. 4 Commoner 1 (commoner array, of course), will be able to hit a wolf pretty good, (under ideal conditions, flat-footed flanked wolf, AC 12 being rushed by a charge attack from 4 villagers at a total of +4, a wolf's got a 65% chance of getting hit at least once, for an average of 4 or 5 damage a shot, a good 1/3 of its HP), and they also have the benefit of being able to lay traps and wait in ambush (flat-footed AC is always better than normal, even for a round).

In a fight between a coupl of commoners and a wolf (a CR-appropriate beast for 4 adventurers, mind) a few commoners have a real shot! Now, tally up the wolf attacks over the years, and a sufficiently lucky and experience farmer may be well able to level up, maybe even multiclass into Warrior. Savage humanoids may be a bit more problematic, but they're usually pretty distant from civilization, and places prone to such attacks are usually well-protected, well-fortified, or soon abandoned.

[Jeff the Green]

Shape soulmeld:Lucky Dice would be good. Basically +1 to all rolls

I wouldn't go with Lucky Dice, but in a setting/region where such is plausible (for example, in my setting a great number of Dwarf NPCs have some access to Incarnum while the ability is rare among reptilians or half-orcs, while the FR fluff—it's related to heavy magic and Karsus and passed on through bloodlines—would make it likely to be rare in things that don't have human introgression (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introgression)) a number of soulmelds would potentially be useful. A quick perusal of my soulmeld quickref (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?310443-A-few-useful-charts-Soulmelds-and-Domains) suggests a few options: Truthseeker Goggles, Acrobat Boots, Keeneye Lenses, Riding Bracers, Sighting Gloves, Pauldrons of Health, Lifebond Vestments, Necrocarnum Mantle, and Hunter's Circlet all seem to give bonuses that a significant proportion of commoners and experts bonuses. And there are some others that might be very useful for specific professions or environments.

[Haluesen]

Another thought here is, why are we assuming all the farmers will be Commoner 1? In truly dangerous areas, there's plenty chance of farmers needing to protect their livestocks, even from a small pack of wolves, earning then some XP over time. 4 Commoner 1 (commoner array, of course), will be able to hit a wolf pretty good, (under ideal conditions, flat-footed flanked wolf, AC 12 being rushed by a charge attack from 4 villagers at a total of +4, a wolf's got a 65% chance of getting hit at least once, for an average of 4 or 5 damage a shot, a good 1/3 of its HP), and they also have the benefit of being able to lay traps and wait in ambush (flat-footed AC is always better than normal, even for a round).

In a fight between a coupl of commoners and a wolf (a CR-appropriate beast for 4 adventurers, mind) a few commoners have a real shot! Now, tally up the wolf attacks over the years, and a sufficiently lucky and experience farmer may be well able to level up, maybe even multiclass into Warrior. Savage humanoids may be a bit more problematic, but they're usually pretty distant from civilization, and places prone to such attacks are usually well-protected, well-fortified, or soon abandoned.

To be fair Commoner makes the most sense for a farmer. It's not really a vocation that seems to fit under expert very well. Though an Expert farmer would certainly be interesting. :smallbiggrin: And I know that there are things in the DMG stating that a commoner in a more rural area with more threats could go up levels, but I also agree with the Commoners Handbook that if a commoner gains enough exp to level up, he has earned the right to stop being a commoner. He could develop into a warrior or expert, maybe even an adept if the story allows.

But I agree with your overall point here, a group of commoners with sufficient time to prepare can handle quite a few threats handily. :smallsmile:

[malonkey1]

To be fair Commoner makes the most sense for a farmer. It's not really a vocation that seems to fit under expert very well. Though an Expert farmer would certainly be interesting. :smallbiggrin: And I know that there are things in the DMG stating that a commoner in a more rural area with more threats could go up levels, but I also agree with the Commoners Handbook that if a commoner gains enough exp to level up, he has earned the right to stop being a commoner. He could develop into a warrior or expert, maybe even an adept if the story allows.

But I agree with your overall point here, a group of commoners with sufficient time to prepare can handle quite a few threats handily. :smallsmile:

Oh, yes, I agree that Commoner is the most probable 1st-level class. I'm just saying that Commoner 1, while the most ahem common, is hardly the only kind of commoner you see. And actually, a few generations of farmers passing down agricultural secrets would be a really good excuse for a peasant farmer who's Expert 1 (class skills include Profession[Farming] of course, probably Handle Animal, Use Rope, possibly Survival, Knowledge[Nature] and/or [Local], etc.).

[Jeff the Green]

Oh, yes, I agree that Commoner is the most probable 1st-level class. I'm just saying that Commoner 1, while the most ahem common, is hardly the only kind of commoner you see. And actually, a few generations of farmers passing down agricultural secrets would be a really good excuse for a peasant farmer who's Expert 1 (class skills include Profession[Farming] of course, probably Handle Animal, Use Rope, possibly Survival, Knowledge[Nature] and/or [Local], etc.).

Actually, you could make a good argument for the more independent farmers—homesteaders rather than serfs—to be Experts by default. It takes a significant amount of knowledge and skill to run a farm and if the governing body has something like land-grant colleges (not an unreasonable idea, actually), this is even more justified. I'd expect your average homesteader to have at least one Profession, Handle Animal, Ride, a couple Crafts (probably not fully trained, though), Use Rope, and some of the senses, social skills, and athletics.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't mean like chicken zombie b/s, or something like endurance, but what sort of options would a farmer have if they were skilled beyond the lame bonus to endurance checks?

I give a pretty decently optimized farmer example (given the constraints of starting with crappy commoners) in this guide:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9NJIs751Af3i0IEIJwCkIp9H9YFiZYZ7u-wmYVaheI/edit

And, of course, I give the rules that a highly wealthy society can improve their citizenry and yeomanry.

Go take a look at it!

[Coidzor]

Another thought here is, why are we assuming all the farmers will be Commoner 1? In truly dangerous areas, there's plenty chance of farmers needing to protect their livestocks, even from a small pack of wolves, earning then some XP over time. 4 Commoner 1 (commoner array, of course), will be able to hit a wolf pretty good, (under ideal conditions, flat-footed flanked wolf, AC 12 being rushed by a charge attack from 4 villagers at a total of +4, a wolf's got a 65% chance of getting hit at least once, for an average of 4 or 5 damage a shot, a good 1/3 of its HP), and they also have the benefit of being able to lay traps and wait in ambush (flat-footed AC is always better than normal, even for a round).

In a fight between a coupl of commoners and a wolf (a CR-appropriate beast for 4 adventurers, mind) a few commoners have a real shot! Now, tally up the wolf attacks over the years, and a sufficiently lucky and experience farmer may be well able to level up, maybe even multiclass into Warrior. Savage humanoids may be a bit more problematic, but they're usually pretty distant from civilization, and places prone to such attacks are usually well-protected, well-fortified, or soon abandoned.

Do wolves actually attack humans, especially humans in any number, without either a druid or similar entity controlling them/egging them on or during starvation conditions like the worst part of a bad winter?

Or, y'know, being attacked first by a bunch of commoners going around looking for wolves to kill for XP and to keep them from going after their livestock?

[atemu1234]

Or, y'know, being attacked first by a bunch of commoners going around looking for wolves to kill for XP and to keep them from going after their livestock?

This is always a possibility; again, reasons why Commoners do not see use in my games. The lowest common denominator for classes in my campaigns, even for NPCs, is going to be Expert. Doesn't it make more sense than being a commoner? Everyone has talents and wants to do something, so everyone is an expert at something.

[malonkey1]

Do wolves actually attack humans, especially humans in any number, without either a druid or similar entity controlling them/egging them on or during starvation conditions like the worst part of a bad winter?

Or, y'know, being attacked first by a bunch of commoners going around looking for wolves to kill for XP and to keep them from going after their livestock?

Good point, yes, but I just pulled up wolves as an example. Plus, if wild game is at a low (let's just say a Druid has been casting summon nature's ally at an improbable rate), a wolf will eventually go after livestock, but that's only if they're starving. An overconfident Kobold or Goblin (or even a couple overconfident individuals) might be more appropriate, but then commoners lose at least some of their "superior brainpower" advantage. If they're Pathfinder Humans, then that gives the poor schmucks a leg up as an extra +1 to attack, HP, or a few skills.

[Coidzor]

This is always a possibility; again, reasons why Commoners do not see use in my games. The lowest common denominator for classes in my campaigns, even for NPCs, is going to be Expert. Doesn't it make more sense than being a commoner? Everyone has talents and wants to do something, so everyone is an expert at something.

It sorta depends on the society, really. The thralls at the bottom of a viking-style civ might be Commoners while the freemen are Experts, Warriors, or Warrior/Experts with a not-insubstantial warrior class of Warriors and Fighters and Barbarians. Or in a built-up city, the stevedores, warehouse-types, and other similar laborers are probably Commoners instead of Experts.

[Psyren]

Who could survive in a world where 99% of the creatures are vicious, nasty tempered, and magical?

Not even close. There are mundane animals, insects, plants and people in every setting, and these make up the vast majority. The magical and dangerous stuff is out there, but most commoners barely even hear about it much less see it.

[Rubik]

Not even close. There are mundane animals, insects, plants and people in every setting, and these make up the vast majority. The magical and dangerous stuff is out there, but most commoners barely even hear about it much less see it.Whereas the exact opposite is true for adventurers, merchant caravans, wandering minstrels, maidens in towers, and basically everyone else who has a quest or three to dispense.

[Psyren]

Whereas the exact opposite is true for adventurers, merchant caravans, wandering minstrels, maidens in towers, and basically everyone else who has a quest or three to dispense.

That's due to them coming to you though. Police may be a minority of the population, but if you run a donut shop... :smallsmile:

[Haluesen]

Oh, yes, I agree that Commoner is the most probable 1st-level class. I'm just saying that Commoner 1, while the most ahem common, is hardly the only kind of commoner you see. And actually, a few generations of farmers passing down agricultural secrets would be a really good excuse for a peasant farmer who's Expert 1 (class skills include Profession[Farming] of course, probably Handle Animal, Use Rope, possibly Survival, Knowledge[Nature] and/or [Local], etc.).

It is definitely possible for there to be non-commoner farmers. I was just mentioning that it is the first class that comes to mind when thinking of a farmer to me.


Actually, you could make a good argument for the more independent farmers—homesteaders rather than serfs—to be Experts by default. It takes a significant amount of knowledge and skill to run a farm and if the governing body has something like land-grant colleges (not an unreasonable idea, actually), this is even more justified. I'd expect your average homesteader to have at least one Profession, Handle Animal, Ride, a couple Crafts (probably not fully trained, though), Use Rope, and some of the senses, social skills, and athletics.

This is actually not a bad idea. I mean it's not like there aren't specifically trained farmers and school for such things in real life. So applying such things to a campaign is pretty fair. :smallsmile:


Do wolves actually attack humans, especially humans in any number, without either a druid or similar entity controlling them/egging them on or during starvation conditions like the worst part of a bad winter?

Or, y'know, being attacked first by a bunch of commoners going around looking for wolves to kill for XP and to keep them from going after their livestock?

It real life I don't think so normally. In D&D though those wolves are always vicious and looking for meat. :smallamused:

[Vaz]

A commoner taking 10 or 20 is likely to be able to make most untrained skills checks anyway. It doesn't need to be an expert, unless it is something like a scholar of multiple knowledge disciplines, which is not covered by Apprentice feats from DMG 2.

Other than that, most trained only checks refers to those with extremely specific applications - those of use to an expert type NPC are relegated to knowledges, autohypnosis, lucid dreaming, handle animal, and maybe disable device, and Handle Animal is a Commoner ability as well.

A Medicine Man who takes the tribe on Vision Quests might have Lucid Dreaming, Heal, Autohypnosis, Knowledge Nature, Geography and Planes, and Survival. An archeologist might have 7 knowledges.

Without taking cross class skills, which is unlikely, and not having someone to train them, a commoner will focus on what they are capable at in life. Without training otherwise.

Remember as well that some people might not necessarily have a focus in one thing in particular. They might not have maximum ranks, they might only have a couple of ranks in it. Not all farmers are Profession Farmer with 4 ranks. Some are only 1 rank with ranks in say jump or climb from being a child, but as they grow older and have less time to work on that, they improve their farming skills at the expense of working on their tree climbing. The best farmer in the world has a score of +10 to those checks, by being venerable, skill focus and maxed ranks.

Not every farmer is so capable - like I said earlier, the mechanics provide the rules for the characters abilities, not the mechanics definings the character. A farmer cannot 'choose' skill focus out of the metagame. They already have it, it is just a matter of whether or not they make use of it. For example, you might find something like a 'scholar' with no ranks in knowledges, and a skill fpcus in basketweaving. Either intentionally or not, henis illsuited for the job. But like those who are in government they are still there anyway.

[bulbaquil]

Probable feats: Skill Focus (Profession (farmer)) (particularly if they're more dedicated - yeoman are more likely to have this than serfs), Great Fortitude (for resisting diseases etc.), Skill Focus (Handle Animal) (particularly if their farm focuses more on animals than vegetables/fruits etc.), Lightning Reflexes (getting out of the way of raging bulls etc.), Toughness (particularly if they get into a lot of scrapes and/or deal regularly with the more dangerous farm animals), Endurance (increasingly more likely if they've been in the militia or the like). Maybe Self-Sufficient.

Think of the background of the individual farmer and choose stats/feats/skills accordingly. NPCs generally don't get to optimize.

[unseenmage]

Just stumbled across the [Creature Type] Trainer feat in Arms & Equipment Guide and thought of this thread. Needs 8 ranks in Handle Animal though. On the other hand, it's a different feat for each creature type.

Now I want a Wizard who animates objects and has a Cohort who trains them. Because pointlessness, that's why.

[Lans]

This is always a possibility; again, reasons why Commoners do not see use in my games. The lowest common denominator for classes in my campaigns, even for NPCs, is going to be Expert. Doesn't it make more sense than being a commoner? Everyone has talents and wants to do something, so everyone is an expert at something.

A friend of mine used commoner for teenagers, and farmhands.

[Vaz]

Just stumbled across the [Creature Type] Trainer feat in Arms & Equipment Guide and thought of this thread. Needs 8 ranks in Handle Animal though. On the other hand, it's a different feat for each creature type.

Now I want a Wizard who animates objects and has a Cohort who trains them. Because pointlessness, that's why.

Might want to square away that Int -, though. And you can already train Int 1 or 2 creatures of a different type with +5 to the DC anyway.

[Coidzor]

And you can already train Int 1 or 2 creatures of a different type with +5 to the DC anyway.

Where's that established? I'm only aware of Animals and Magical Beasts that Handle Animal can do by default, penalty or no, and that's in Core. Everything else I've seen requires a feat, like etiher Dragon Trainer from, IIRC, Races of the Dragon, or this [Creature Type] Trainer from Arms and Equipment Guide.

[Mithril Leaf]

Where's that established? I'm only aware of Animals and Magical Beasts that Handle Animal can do by default, penalty or no, and that's in Core. Everything else I've seen requires a feat, like etiher Dragon Trainer from, IIRC, Races of the Dragon, or this [Creature Type] Trainer from Arms and Equipment Guide.

I believe, in one of the Underdark books or Lords of Madness you can do it to Aberrations too, but I'm not sure.

[Coidzor]

I believe, in one of the Underdark books or Lords of Madness you can do it to Aberrations too, but I'm not sure.

That... does ring a bell, come to think of it.

[Vaz]

Where's that established? I'm only aware of Animals and Magical Beasts that Handle Animal can do by default, penalty or no, and that's in Core. Everything else I've seen requires a feat, like etiher Dragon Trainer from, IIRC, Races of the Dragon, or this [Creature Type] Trainer from Arms and Equipment Guide.

Handle Animal skill - special section

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm

The feats like Dragon Trainer etc allow higher Int monsters to be trained.

[Aharon]

But those are reasonably capable humans, not pitiful, half-starved rock farmers with "class features" that are far worse than even basic Humanoid hit dice, with terrible stats and skills.

But the HD of a single human don't matter. And while they are ****ty, even commoner HD do add something. By RAW, the average level of the highest level commoner in a thorp is 7 (4d4-community modifier 3). While these are crappy levels no PC would take, it's still enough to best a wolf.

[Azoth]

I have to aggree with some of the other posters. The feats a PC or NPC have can vary greatly even towards reaching the same end goal.

Hell, farmer Bob could be dimwitted disowned son of a great wizard. He still plows fields like the next guy and sells crops for less money than PC's spend on a single meal, but he could have justifiably Magical Training .

Int 10 won't make him a passing wizard, but with three cantrips a day under his belt he can manage better than some other farmers.

Drought going on, and he has 3 gallons of water a day to keep himself hydrated and a small personal garden? Guess he isn't going to starve this harvest.

Rash of illnesses brought on by contaminated food...good thing he knows Purify Food & Drink.

Still a human commoner 1 farmer, but due to background he has a feat most would never consider putting on a commoner yet alone a farmer .

[Gavinfoxx]

Joe Farmer
Type: Humanoid
Human Commoner 1
XP: 0
ECL: 1
CR: 1/2
Feats: Skill Focus: Profession (Farmer), Skill focus: Profession (Herdsman)
Stats: Wis 13, Str 12, Int 11, Con 10, Dex 9, Cha 8
Skills: Farming and Herding skills, mostly, and Handle Animal. Cross-class in Knowledge Nature.
Hit points: 2. Weapon proficiency: Sling