Level 10 spells

[Melcar]

Have anyone here ever played with the old level 10 or above spells? I remember something about Mystra only changing the way magic work, thus making the old spell write-up of the level 10-11-12 non functionel. But could a mage not research the spells, if one were to find such a spell? WHat do you guys think`?

[Segev]

From which edition?

[WeaselGuy]

I seem to recall reading about this in a FR splatbook a while back, but I'm away from books right now, so I can't look it up... maybe Lost Empires of Faerûn?

[Tvtyrant]

There were a lot more in Darksun's Dragon Kings Accessory. They tend to be a little weaker though.

[Starmage21]

Dark Sun had some level 10 spells.

a 2e splat Netheril had 10th through 14th level spells. Mystra barred spells above 9 from accessing the weave. So theyre no longer possible in Faerun. Doesnt mean they cant happen elsewhere, where there is no weave.

[Segev]

I lack the books these were in. How do various levels of spells >9 compare to epic spells?

[Starmage21]

10th+ spells are NOT epic spells. Epic spells refers specifically to the system that appears in the Epic Level Handbook, which was something of a 3.0 update to the "True Dweomers" system that appeared in AD&D 2nd Edition DM's Option: High Level Campaigns book. Epic spells can be a bit cheese without proper DM adjudication.

The 10th+ spells that appear in Netheril: Empire of Magic quickly branch out in scope and power to the point that the only published 14th level spell stole the power of a god and required some seriously epic material components.

I'm not familiar with Dragon Kings, so I cant comment on it.

[Segev]

I'm aware of what Epic Spells are; I was more asking how the 10th+ level spells compared to them, since epic spells and 9th level spells are all I have to compare them to as benchmarks.

The 14th level spell is Karsus's Folly, I take it?

[Starmage21]

I'm aware of what Epic Spells are; I was more asking how the 10th+ level spells compared to them, since epic spells and 9th level spells are all I have to compare them to as benchmarks.

The 14th level spell is Karsus's Folly, I take it?

Yes. It was titled Karsus' Avatar.

The other 10th+ level spells were much more reasonable, but blew the scales to smithereens in terms of 1-9th spells. One 10th level spell created an acid cloud that IIRC affected miles and was carried by normal weather.

I know for a fact you can download the PDF somewhere for free and it wouldnt be piracy, thanks to WotC giving them away for free with no sort of licensing.
http://en.booksee.org/book/1246992

Try that.

[Zanos]

Karsus's Avatar was 12th level.

I shudder to think what a true 13th level spell would do.

[Starmage21]

Karsus's Avatar was 12th level.

I shudder to think what a true 13th level spell would do.

Derp on my part. Yes. a 12th level spell that could temporarily steal the power of a god. Perhaps a 14th could do so permanently.

[Segev]

Maybe a 13th could use giant golden statues of the caster as a material component to make not a demiplane, but a portion of the material plane into their personal playground, as maleable to their will and as much a part of them as their own fingers.

[Starmage21]

Maybe a 13th could use giant golden statues of the caster as a material component to make not a demiplane, but a portion of the material plane into their personal playground, as maleable to their will and as much a part of them as their own fingers.

I'm re-reading Empire of Magic now. Karsus' Avatar appears to be permanent. 11th level spells allow for BIG changes to terrain or areas, but in specific ways. I'd say a 12th level spell that didnt require any hugely exotic material components could do what you want, given the existing scale.

Mavin's Worldweave: 11th level, permanently alters weather in area 1 mile/level
Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere: 11th level spell that prevented travel to or from an entire crystal sphere by spelljammer.

[Segev]

I'm re-reading Empire of Magic now. Karsus' Avatar appears to be permanent. 11th level spells allow for BIG changes to terrain or areas, but in specific ways. I'd say a 12th level spell that didnt require any hugely exotic material components could do what you want, given the existing scale.

Mavin's Worldweave: 11th level, permanently alters weather in area 1 mile/level
Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere: 11th level spell that prevented travel to or from an entire crystal sphere by spelljammer.

Impressive.

(I was making a joke reference to 3rd circle sorcery, but sometimes 3CS is underwhelming compared to what its hype builds it up to be, so maybe I missed the mark a bit.)

[Melcar]

Its true, that the most powerful spell ever casted (as far as what we know) was level 12. But the imaskar empire did ban an entire pantheon from accesing Toril, by their Gods-wall spell, that might have been similar level or perhaps level 13?

But as far as my question, as I remember, Mystra just changed how level 10+ spells functioned not derectly dis-allowing those spells. Which would mean that it still possible albeit extremely difficult. But what is your take on having high end NPC like Larloch, Ioulaum, Srinshee have access to level 10 true dweomers?

[Starmage21]

Its true, that the most powerful spell ever casted (as far as what we know) was level 12. But the imaskar empire did ban an entire pantheon from accesing Toril, by their Gods-wall spell, that might have been similar level or perhaps level 13?

But as far as my question, as I remember, Mystra just changed how level 10+ spells functioned not derectly dis-allowing those spells. Which would mean that it still possible albeit extremely difficult. But what is your take on having high end NPC like Larloch, Ioulaum, Srinshee have access to level 10 true dweomers?

Mystra banned 10th+ level spells. This had no effect on epic spells. Epic spells were always possible, the archwizards just never used them.

This means that if your campaign setting allows for 10th+ level spells, you could have them. Dark Sun apparently specifically allows for some.

I did look up the Arcanist levels required for certain spells: 10th level spells available at 20th. 11th level at 35, and 12th at 40. The Arcanist didnt have spell slots, so no telling what their slot totals would be at those levels.

[Segev]

Well, just from the SRD, here is a list of the cleric, druid, and sor/wiz 9th level spells.


Cleric
Astral Projection: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
Implosion: Kills one creature/round.
Miracle: Requests a deity’s intercession.
Soul Bind: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
True Resurrection: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

Druid
Antipathy: Object or location affected by spell repels certain creatures.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Elemental Swarm: Summons multiple elementals.
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Shambler: Summons 1d4+2 shambling mounds to fight for you.
Shapechange: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX: Calls creature to fight.
Sympathy: Object or location attracts certain creatures.

Sor/Wiz
Freedom: Releases creature from imprisonment.
Imprisonment: Entombs subject beneath the earth.
Mage’s Disjunction: Dispels magic, disenchants magic items.
Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.
Gate: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Teleportation Circle M: Circle teleports any creature inside to designated spot.
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.
Dominate Monster: As dominate person, but any creature.
Hold Monster, Mass: As hold monster, but all within 30 ft.
Power Word Kill: Kills one creature with 100 hp or less.
Crushing Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or crushes your foes.
Meteor Swarm: Four exploding spheres each deal 6d6 fire damage.
Shades: As shadow conjuration, but up to 8th level and 80% real.
Weird: As phantasmal killer, but affects all within 30 ft.
Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Soul Bind: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
Wail of the Banshee: Kills one creature/level.
Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Shapechange: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.
Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.
Wish: As limited wish, but with fewer limits.

As a passing note, Clerics seem to have Astral Projection, just like wizards, but we only ever seem to hear about wizards using it as a "get out of death free" card.

Power level varies across these spells, but the stand-outs are things like Foresight, Wish, Gate, Miracle, True Ressurection, Time STop, and Astral Projection. This is also where a number of "kill lots of people at once as an instant effect" spells come in. Evocations are largely ho-hum in this list, but that's an artifact of "just doing damage" being underwhelming as a general rule once you get to this point. And none of the 9th level evocations quite breech into the "strategic scale weapon" area of effect.


So that might be a place to start for 10th level spells: strategic scale damage. Hit whole cities at once (without relying on mechanical tricks that were almost certainly not intended nor conceived of by the designers). Maybe level 11 lets you strategically hit only who you want to (though that's probably best done with Shaped Spell or other metamagic applied to your 10th level ones).

Given that Mass versions of spells tend to be 2-3 levels higher than their single-target versions, maybe level 11 also has Mass Shapechange, usable on your whole party. As we're way up here, it probably uses your CL, rather than target HD, as the limits for the form. I feel like it should grant the hp of the target form, as well, if it's more than your own (treating extra as temp hp).

Mass True Resurrection is probably a level 11 spell, too. Maybe level 12, if the material component is not 25k per person. Definitely should target a city-scale area.

Level 10 should also probably have "True Polymorph," which is as PAO, but with an Instantaneous duration.

I want to put the "you can hear conversations where your name is mentioned" as a Diviniation spell, but it might honestly be as low as 9th.

Mass Dominate and Dominate Monster are both 9ths. I'm honestly not sure Mass Dominate Monster needs to be much higher than 10th, though.


However, what's always more interesting than just "scaling it up" is coming up with new, impressive effects that really stand out. Shapechange is a stand-out spell not because it's scaled up polymorph, but because it adds the ability to keep shifting as much as you like. Gate is a 2-way passage between planes that happens to allow you to call an outsider, setting it apart from Planar Binding (which is the classic "summon a demon and bind it to your will" effect).

For a 10th-level Divination effect, how about "Pastwalk?" This spell would allow you to project your awareness back in time, perceiving everything from now back to an amount of time based on your CL, then move around like a ghost to observe it moving forward from that point. All in the casting time of the spell (I'm thinking 1 minute, maybe 10). So you could do something like sit in an area where a theft occurred, watch "backwards" to the moment you see it happen, then play it out "forwards," following the perpetrator as he leaves until you see where he went. It might take additional magics to track him if he could hide from you after stealing it (or steal it without you seeing how it was done), or could teleport, or the like, but if you just have to watch him and follow him, you can see where he took it.

[Starmage21]

Tolodine's Killing Wind
(Conjuration/Summoning)
Level: 10
Field: Inventive
Range: 100 yd/lvl
Components: V
Duration: 1 hr/lvl
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: 100 yd/lvl
Saving Throw: Special
Tolodine’s Killing Wind was designed to kill large numbers of
creatures, and it worked well. When cast, billowing vapors moved
away from the caster at an incredible rate of speed, overtaking
anything within the area of effect unless magical means were
used to escape.
Creatures caught within the cloud were entitled to a single saving
throw versus spells to resist being killed by the spell.
Creatures made a saving throw with a modifier based on the caster’s
sacrifice.
The casting of this spell automatically drained two life-levels
from the caster (though for purposes of area of effect, range, and
duration, the caster’s original level was used). In addition, the
caster could opt to sacrifice more life energy, imposing a -1
penalty to all saving throws for every two levels so sacrificed
to a maximum of -10). The one side effect to this, however, was
that there was a 5% chance per level drained voluntarily that the
caster’s essence would be pulled into the Negative Energy plane
forever.
If pulled into the Negative Material Plane, one of two things
occurred. If the caster was alive, the essence was consumed and
the caster killed. The spellcaster was lost forever and couldn’t be
resurrected or brought back to life in any way. If the spellcaster
was undead, the essence continued to exist but it was trapped in
the Negative Material Plane.


Consider this on the scale of AD&D 2e 1-9 Wizard spells, and then realize that 3e blew that out of the water. MANY 2e Quest Spells for clerics became 8th and 9th level spells in 3e.

*edit*
If I were to convert this to 3rd, it would be up there with Implosion, IE a spell that ends whoever fails the save, and is not considered a [Death] effect. Most spells that were killing spells in 2e required a save vs death. This one requires a save vs spell. The level loss would probably convert to an XP cost.

[Melcar]

Its true that some spells would fit into the level 9 scope of things, and then again some wouldn't. But following the chapter about forbidden magic in "secrets of the magister" it not impossible to cast level 10 spells at all. It has become difficult and dangerous. So well thats that...?

[With a box]

I thinks if we have 10th level spells online, some of 9th spells at now is too borken witch should get more higher level.

[hamishspence]

Power level varies across these spells, but the stand-outs are things like Foresight, Wish, Gate, Miracle, True Ressurection, Time STop, and Astral Projection. This is also where a number of "kill lots of people at once as an instant effect" spells come in. Evocations are largely ho-hum in this list, but that's an artifact of "just doing damage" being underwhelming as a general rule once you get to this point. And none of the 9th level evocations quite breech into the "strategic scale weapon" area of effect.


BoVD'S "Apocalypse from the Sky" is strategic-scale - but also not good for the caster.

Frostburn's "Fimbulwinter" also works- strategic-scale climate change.