At what level does ordinary wizard stop caring about the world?

[Balor01]

Let's talk selfish TN wiz here, not some NG fella who wants to fix the world.

At which level can Wiz create his own (almost)unbreachable villa in which he studies/does whatever wizards do untill something wrecks magic on whole plane and gets him out to do something?

thanks

[bjoern]

Let's talk selfish TN wiz here, not some NG fella who wants to fix the world.

At which level can Wiz create his own (almost)unbreachable villa in which he studies/does whatever wizards do untill something wrecks magic on whole plane and gets him out to do something?

thanks

I feel probably around 5 or 7.

[Tvtyrant]

Level 17 nets you genesis, and you make your own designer plane of existence.

[heavyfuel]

It really depends on the setting. If there's an epic level wizard bent on destroying and conquering everybody, then I'd say lv17 at minimum because of Genesis (though there's still probably some way for him to be found and killed, especially when against epic magic)

If there are no such threat, then you can do that at lv9 which is when you can have access to "Private Sanctum" to protect you against scrying attempts. It can be done earlier with infinite gold cheese and just buying an item of mind blank.

[StoneCipher]

I would imagine never. Even if you don't care if people live or die, eventually you'll start to care if the world is being completely destroyed by something, since you'll eventually need magical components. While you could probably go out and get them on your own, it's probably for the better that the world has a functioning economy.

[Kazyan]

1. Or, slightly less sarcastic, 4, if he can get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend for his Rope Trick. 5, if he can't.

[Shining Wrath]

We need more information about the wizard, I'm afraid.

Does he need material components?

Does he have a family (a TN person would care about family, after all)?

Does he care only about knowing more magic, or does he care about impressing others?

Are there libraries / ancient tomes / whatever that might aid his wizardly endeavors out there somewhere?

[Vaz]

He always cares about the world, in some form or manner.

He creates himself a persona which would allow him to create a guild of mages who he will slowly drip feed his more powerful spells down. This guild then gradually spreads across the world, where the accumulated knowledge of every mage researching their own individual spells and hiring of bounty hunters acquires all of the spell components he will ever need.

[Balor01]

We need more information about the wizard, I'm afraid.

Does he need material components?

Does he have a family (a TN person would care about family, after all)?

Does he care only about knowing more magic, or does he care about impressing others?

Are there libraries / ancient tomes / whatever that might aid his wizardly endeavors out there somewhere?

Allrighty. Just concider a normal human wizard. I guess every creature has a certain incentive in life, so this could be knowledge, wealth, a ton of women. At a certain level (needs not be lvl 20) all of these things can be easily obtained.

I really fail to see how something as mundane as material componenets would matter to a high level wiz.

Family could be some sort of issue. Let's say he has a family. If that means his wife (or vives. or grooms. or loli succubus) he could just have them in his sanctum.

I guess as said, every person cares about something. Lets say there is one thing he cares about. A normal thing.

There are always tomes.



He creates himself a persona which would allow him to create a guild of mages who he will slowly drip feed his more powerful spells down. This guild then gradually spreads across the world, where the accumulated knowledge of every mage researching their own individual spells and hiring of bounty hunters acquires all of the spell components he will ever need.

Why not just jump to Sigil on a shopping trip here and there? Or get an ancient worm dragon buddy with 20 lvls of Wiz. He must know all the stuff.

The ideas with lvl 1 and 5 etc. ... are just silly. Its again a mechanical solution, so typical for people unable to see beyond RAW. It's not what I'm asking and you know it.

[StoneCipher]

Why not just jump to Sigil on a shopping trip here and there? Or get an ancient worm dragon buddy with 20 lvls of Wiz. He must know all the stuff.

Well, I suppose the Sigil solution would work, but you'd then still care about the outside world and venture out of your magical compound. So, you wouldn't be a truly isolationist mage.

As for befriending an ancient worm dragon, that would be difficult to do, unless you were a widely known mage, and were worthy of a dragon's friendship.

You could always just go live at the Spire and hang out with Boccob.

[Nousos]

I'd say it really depends on the wizard. One who gained any levels through adventuring would realize that the fastest way to gain power would be to continue adventuring. If one lived a "normal" wizard life and wanted to pursue scholarly research to the exclusion of all all else, then it would likely be as soon as he can use private sanctum.

[Barstro]

I'd say it really depends on the wizard. One who gained any levels through adventuring would realize that the fastest way to gain power would be to continue adventuring. If one lived a "normal" wizard life and wanted to pursue scholarly research to the exclusion of all all else, then it would likely be as soon as he can use private sanctum.

Also depends on what "caring about the world" means and what the wizard's endgame is. Does he just want to read books all day, or does he want to control everyone around him like a living game of Starcraft?

An all-powerful wizard that does not interact with anyone/anything else is the exact same as a powerless person in a psych ward with delusions so strong that he thinks he's a wizard.

If a wizard just wants to be left alone, then as soon as he can safely build a tower and be self sufficient. For greater solitude; create a demiplane.

[Dorian Gray]

Allrighty. Just concider a normal human wizard. I guess every creature has a certain incentive in life, so this could be knowledge, wealth, a ton of women. At a certain level (needs not be lvl 20) all of these things can be easily obtained.

The ideas with lvl 1 and 5 etc. ... are just silly. Its again a mechanical solution, so typical for people unable to see beyond RAW. It's not what I'm asking and you know it.

Hey. Don't do that. Insulting people for answering your question isn't cool. You asked:



At which level can Wiz create his own (almost)unbreachable villa in which he studies/does whatever wizards do untill something wrecks magic on whole plane and gets him out to do something?

And the response was that it could be done at either level 4 or level 5. If you didn't want rules advice, you shouldn't ask for it. We are saying that by level 5ish, the wizard is capable of making a safe house that is impenetrable to anything he doesn't want coming in- an extended Rope Trick, in this case.

Specifically, at level 5, the Wizard can cast Extended Rope Trick, which lasts ten hours, at least twice a day, and can cast Rope Trick, which lasts 5 hours, to cover the remaining time. Pulling up the rope makes the area completely closed off from the outside world, and the Wizard has unlimited food and water. He can then spend the rest of his life studying in peace.

[Vaz]

A wizard cares about Material Components. Cheap ones, whether it is higher OP Dark Chaos Shuffle'd Ignore Components or whatever, or a Spell Component Pouch.

Even excluding the stupidity of the pouch for certain things (Artifacts, Ice Assassin clumps of hair etc), I am not a fan of its versimilitude. Either way, you are going to want to gain access to rarer or more expensive ones.

Why pay for something when you can have people do it for you? The wizard necromancer miner who works for you, casting his wall of salt to sell for additional funds, while some of the Skeleton miners dig out gemstones or whatever.

By elevating the populace, he not only gets people to donate to his personal wealth (that wealth typically being his knowledge repository), but a load of free stuff.

There is no such thing in a campaign as a 20th level TN wizard. There is simply a powerful wizard with a particular bent to his personality. That is why there are things like Sense Motive so one can estimate levels entirely in character.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to give you a more nuanced reply, then.

At level 4 or 5, he can have solitude as described.
At a level depending upon DM fiat, he can have a tower. That's a function of wealth rather than spells. I think most DMs don't permit the unlimited wealth tricks.

In terms of items needed for his research, some things (e.g., 5,000 GP diamonds) are not going to be just lying around. So he needs a source of income and a trustworthy friend to do his shopping. The source of income might be that available to any other feudal lord, i.e., taxes, but that implies someone trustworthy to manage the fief while the wizard wizards. A high enough level to create a trustworthy friend is probably around 15.

If his family inhabits his sanctum, they also have needs. Consider Prospero's daughter Miranda in The Tempest. A normal family pretty much precludes complete isolation; but if the family are all also wizards, they can share in his odd lifestyle.

Barring unlimited wealth shenanigans, I'm calling it level 15.

[Spore]

By level 1 you have but your spellbook to your name.
By level 5 you have a neat array of spells and one or two useful rods/wands.
By level 9 you can freely teleport around in your world and avoid greater scale desasters.

I'd say level 9. Unless it's the apocalypse or you have found a place where you really really REALLY want to stay you can always just leave. About 900 miles in any direction. That rules out a lot of potential dangers.

[Beneath]

Saying that wizards don't need to care about the world is an exaggeration. They care about those close to them, their suppliers, and so on. What they outgrow is things like being able to benefit from holding a position of rulership or other common types of power because their intrinsic power is so much greater.

An unbreachable villa, well, there's always a bigger fish. It'll never be unbreachable.

Let's rephrase this question: At what point can a wizard villain hide in a dungeon and send minions to do the dirty work? Which can start as soon as you get minions that last long enough for you to send them to do things. Lesser Planar Binding comes online at 9th level, enchantments to allow you to find and bind things come on earlier (At that level your best would be Dominate Person, which lasts days. You've had Charm Monster, which lasts for days, and Lesser Geas, which lasts until completion of a task, since 7th level. Charm Person and Suggestion are unsuitable because of their shorter durations)

The Leadership feat nets them a few minions from level 6 onward. Or, because they're a villain, they can have hobgoblins or gnolls or something they rule though GM Fiatfear.

4th level spells also include a few with good plot reach, like Scrying and Detect Scrying (and the above-mentioned 5th-level Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum)

Your impenetrable villa here has Illusory Wall shenanigans going on, to say nothing of Explosive Runes and things of that sort. At 9th level you can add Permanency and Wall of Stone so you can sculpt it how you like it (sadly, Disintegrate isn't yet available. You can make do with Stone Shape or by binding/summoning earth elementals).

You can act on the world from the safety of your study through Dream and Nightmare spells, plus the usual Sendings. When the meddlesome heroes breach your last defense you can escape into the night with Teleport.

At 10th level (or 9th with a CL increase) you get the ability to make 2nd level spells permanent, dramatically increasing your available defenses. At 11th you get 6th level spells, like Disintegrate (good for excavating large blocks of stone) and Guards and Wards (for when the meddlesome heroes find your dungeon), and the proper Planar Binding, meaning you can get outsiders of up to 12 hit dice (so demons up to Glabrezu and devils up to Hamatula, plus greater barghests, night hags, efreet and djinn, Salamanders and Xorn through Average, adult Tojanida. Or if you'd rather have angels do your dirty work, Trumpet Archons, Astral Devas, and Ghaeles).

All of these are SRD spells. SpC spells might add more to this but I don't have them at my fingertips nearly as easily as I do SRD spells.

I'd put the range at which a wizard can start relying on ensorcelled minions obtained under their own power instead of any social role at 7th-9th, with a few trying it at 6th and using more mundane power, and lairs really getting dramatic at 11th.

---- edited to add: ----

Failing that, if you're neutral and just want to hide out, it's similar. Though, in that case you'll be less with the minions and militarized defenses, and more making your villa seem like there's nothing of value there, or alternately having really showy defenses. Though, if you're going to be getting supplies, even just books, from the outside, you need an income source, which might be hard to hide. You can use the Stronghold Builder's Guide rules if you want, or you can use Profession/Craft, or you can use Fabricate, or you can raid/charge protection money/taxes/whatever the kids are calling it these days.

This doesn't change the level requirements that much. If you want to get a good deal on your stronghold using the SBG you have to be 9th level for the Landlord feat.

[AMFV]

The ideas with lvl 1 and 5 etc. ... are just silly. Its again a mechanical solution, so typical for people unable to see beyond RAW. It's not what I'm asking and you know it.

It's a difficult question and there really is no RAW answer. A TN Wizard will still be motivated by things and have interests. Even a wizard who is just completely living in his sanctum may have an interest in the outside world at some point. You aren't giving us enough specifics. TN doesn't necessarily mean completely apathetic, it means that you aren't strongly pulled towards Good or Evil, or Law or Chaos. That could mean any number of things.

Mordenkainen was much more likely to interfere in the world than Elminster was, Elminster was NG and Mordenkainen was TN. This is because Mordenkainen explicitly cared about the balance of the world for his own inscrutable reasons. So the only in-world example of a high level TN wizard we have was somebody who was prone to dramatic interference.

[Balor01]

Hey. Don't do that. Insulting people for answering your question isn't cool.

And the response was that it could be done at either level 4 or level 5. If you didn't want rules advice, you shouldn't ask for it. We are saying that by level 5ish, the wizard is capable of making a safe house that is impenetrable to anything he doesn't want coming in- an extended Rope Trick, in this case.

Specifically, at level 5, the Wizard can cast Extended Rope Trick, which lasts ten hours, at least twice a day, and can cast Rope Trick, which lasts 5 hours, to cover the remaining time. Pulling up the rope makes the area completely closed off from the outside world, and the Wizard has unlimited food and water. He can then spend the rest of his life studying in peace.

You know what I am getting at.

Anyway, let me upgrade the question. It is hard for me to imagine a lvl 20 wizard taking on, say, a contract to defend a large merchant city. To him, say, 4 mio gp a year is rather ... useless. Thatswhy I wonder at what point wizard just jumps on his silver surfboard and takes a millenia long roadtrip among the stars.

[StoneCipher]

I dont think that it is an ordinary wizard at all that would do that. I think honestly he would have to be bat **** insane to just unplug from the world at large entirely. Even if he had infinite resources, most would yearn some kind of interactions.

[AMFV]

You know what I am getting at.

Anyway, let me upgrade the question. It is hard for me to imagine a lvl 20 wizard taking on, say, a contract to defend a large merchant city. To him, say, 4 mio gp a year is rather ... useless. Thatswhy I wonder at what point wizard just jumps on his silver surfboard and takes a millenia long roadtrip among the stars.

As we've pointed out the only in-universe example of a TN high level wizard tended to be very interested in the affairs of the world. So that suggests that what you are presenting as a foregone conclusion is hardly that.

The closest we have to what you are describing is actually Acerak. Who did take a lengthy vacation while he was amassing power to become a God, but he was also an Epic Level Demilich.

[Psyren]

What high level characters do really, really depends on the cosmology and setting. At those level you become noticed by the major players (deities, organizations, rival adventurers etc.) and so I find the notion that you will be entirely left alone is unrealistic.

Take the most famous wizard hermit, Halaster. People (and deities) bang on his door all the time.

[Zanos]

You know what I am getting at.

Anyway, let me upgrade the question. It is hard for me to imagine a lvl 20 wizard taking on, say, a contract to defend a large merchant city. To him, say, 4 mio gp a year is rather ... useless. Thatswhy I wonder at what point wizard just jumps on his silver surfboard and takes a millenia long roadtrip among the stars.
Unless the wizard is minting more cash with free wishes gold is still useful for acquiring magic items, buying materials to craft, or learning new spells, including very expensive spell research.

It only takes a a couple spell slots to bind something and compel it to defend the city for you anyway.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Take the most famous wizard hermit, Halaster. People (and deities) bang on his door all the time.

Maybe he built that labyrinth just to get a little time to himself. :smallbiggrin:

[AMFV]

What high level characters do really, really depends on the cosmology and setting. At those level you become noticed by the major players (deities, organizations, rival adventurers etc.) and so I find the notion that you will be entirely left alone is unrealistic.

Yep, the only way to actually accomplish that seems to be faking your death or actually dying and transcending the mortal coil.

[bjoern]

You know what I am getting at.

Anyway, let me upgrade the question. It is hard for me to imagine a lvl 20 wizard taking on, say, a contract to defend a large merchant city. To him, say, 4 mio gp a year is rather ... useless. Thatswhy I wonder at what point wizard just jumps on his silver surfboard and takes a millenia long roadtrip among the stars.

Road trip among the stars.......well that would pretty much be a god then. I'd say level 60 or 70. Give of take 20 levels.

[Psyren]

Yep, the only way to actually accomplish that seems to be faking your death or actually dying and transcending the mortal coil.

Faking your death won't work - once you pass level 11, everything you do becomes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) tracked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vision.htm) by the cosmos itself.

Even Vecna-blooded won't work - even if you find a way to obtain it, the man himself will be able to keep tabs on you, as your very existence would fall under his portfolio.

[AMFV]

Faking your death won't work - once you pass level 11, everything you do becomes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) tracked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vision.htm) by the cosmos itself.

Even Vecna-blooded won't work - even if you find a way to obtain it, the man himself will be able to keep tabs on you, as your very existence would fall under his portfolio.

Well Acerak managed to avoid notice. Furthermore Legend Lore is not required to provide current information, as such you can definitely note that any legends you'd obtain from that spell could be ancient. Since it doesn't provide you with much usable information it's not necessarily all that useful.

[Ruethgar]

Level 1 Wizard, ECL 5 with Chosen on Mystra. Use Whispering Way and optionally War spells for your SLA's and you can have Wish, Plane Shift, Genisis, and Astral Projection so at level 5 you no longer have to worry about the world and are relatively safe in your own demi-plane with the option of safely leaving if you need to.

Or just Lucid Dream some spell traps of trans dimensional 9th level spells at level 1 and be set there. If you wish to avoid that cheese, try this gouda instead: Elven Generalist Wizard 1.


Road trip among the stars.......well that would pretty much be a god then. I'd say level 60 or 70. Give of take 20 levels.
Infinite gold shenanigans + stronghold = space ship. Level 9 is easy to get that if you want the matched investment from Landlord(level 6 if you have a major bloodline).

[Psyren]

Well Acerak managed to avoid notice.

Clearly he didn't - he has the most famous tomb in D&D history!

What he was able to do was keep the nature of that tomb secret - for a time at least. As Tome of Magic shows, he failed in his mission and ended up divorced from reality as a result.


Furthermore Legend Lore is not required to provide current information, as such you can definitely note that any legends you'd obtain from that spell could be ancient. Since it doesn't provide you with much usable information it's not necessarily all that useful.

It specifically states you get better information every time you use it, so eventually you will get something relevant. Furthermore, Vision lets you ask a specific question and get an answer, so ask about something current.

[AMFV]

Clearly he didn't - he has the most famous tomb in D&D history!

What he was able to do was keep the nature of that tomb secret - for a time at least. As Tome of Magic shows, he failed in his mission and ended up divorced from reality as a result.


Well for thousands of years (I believe, don't quote me I haven't read RtToH in a long time). At the very least hundreds of years. Theoretically if he had just been mucking around and not trying to ascend to Godhood he might have avoided notice altogether.



It specifically states you get better information every time you use it, so eventually you will get something relevant. Furthermore, Vision lets you ask a specific question and get an answer, so ask about something current.

True, but that takes a very long time, and eventually will get costlier than it's worth. It's probably not worth doing for every single expired Wizard. Also you'd have to ask the right specific question. I'm not saying that it's impossible to work on picking up on a Wizard who's trying to hide, only that they might be successful in avoiding notice for a very very long time.

[Psyren]

True, but that takes a very long time, and eventually will get costlier than it's worth. It's probably not worth doing for every single expired Wizard. Also you'd have to ask the right specific question. I'm not saying that it's impossible to work on picking up on a Wizard who's trying to hide, only that they might be successful in avoiding notice for a very very long time.

Oh I agree - I'm just saying it's possible, not that it's trivial.


Well for thousands of years (I believe, don't quote me I haven't read RtToH in a long time). At the very least hundreds of years. Theoretically if he had just been mucking around and not trying to ascend to Godhood he might have avoided notice altogether.

If you're not going for immortality though, what are you doing? :smalltongue:

I'm reminded of Zero Punctuation:

"If superpowers are to be had, handing them out to random passersby seems to be as good a system as any because then we can all ask ourselves if we'd use the gift to help people or blow up the entire world. Of course I would ask why we can't have more options. Can't I just help the people as a day job and destroy the world on the weekends? Or maybe I just **** the whole complicated business and go back to working at Wal-Mart, using my powers to jump start the little carts the fatties ride around on."

If you do nothing at all I could see you avoiding notice for longer, but eventually someone is going to want your help overthrowing the evil tyrant king or magicking their cat down from a tree or something, and journey across the Xargoth Plains to find you :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

So in conclusion, if the wizard has serious power of any sort, that power will be noticed by those whose business it is to be aware of the powerful - deities, kings and their minions, other wizards, et cetera.

If the wizard has little power then certain tricks can let them withdraw from contact with most people, so long as they lack any personal entanglements like friends or family. And have enough money to buy whatever they need, which leads to power, which leads back to item #1.

I suspect that the set of "powerful enough to hide, not powerful enough to draw attention by those you can't hide from, no social needs, and economically self-sufficient" is small but not empty. However, it is also probably a not very interesting set of people.

[ArqArturo]

The moment you start casting magic. I mean, look at Raistlin, he have two ducks about the world.

[StoneCipher]

I would say if you were going at the angle of - "When can a Wizard seclude himself and not have to concern himself with most worldly affairs?" That would be as soon as you get rope trick. You can go out and get what you need when you need it and just kinda set up a small study. You won't be noticeable enough to be pestered or sought out.

As for a high level wizard, you can surely create some kind of fortress and seclude yourself, only going out to enlist people for resource gathering, and the like.

I would say a Wizard would be able to ignore everything but total world destruction events. He won't concern himself with warring countries, but if demigorgon decides that he wants to have a romp with his demon hordes, I'd say that even the most neutral of Wizards would attempt to stop that in some fashion. Whether it be research, direct aid, or magic weaponry for the heroes of the world.

[AMFV]

Oh I agree - I'm just saying it's possible, not that it's trivial.

Not only is it possible, but it's the back thread of many campaigns (find the hermit wizard and convince him to do X)



If you're not going for immortality though, what are you doing? :smalltongue:

Acerak was already very much immortal, he was trying to become a God. He got tired of mere immortality and wanted more than that, he got greedy.

[Psyren]

Acerak was already very much immortal, he was trying to become a God. He got tired of mere immortality and wanted more than that, he got greedy.

Immortal in the lich sense though, i.e. dependent on a very clear achilles heel. (Or series of heels, since he was a demilich.) So the desire for the lich to not rest on its laurels is understandable.

[loodwig]

Free will is really the decision of the character. If I have an aspiration for a sociopathic hermetic lifestyle granted only by obtaining sufficient power to do so, I'll do what I can to get that power, and at best tolerate mundane life until then. Even if I have a family, I could find a greater calling in doing whatever I want, even to the point of prioritizing over protecting / providing for my family. It's certainly not good, but in the context of the character describe, you said TN, not LG. I've met plenty of parents who go off to "find themselves" and abandon their children in the process, so this isn't beyond the realm of personal feasibility with a modern American, let alone a Wizard.

As such, this is a question of ability. A lvl 5 wizard can probably venture off on his own and be a reasonable hermit. But just being able to summon a fireball or rope doesn't make you an omnipotent creature divorced from mankind. I do feel this happens around when you can cast spell level 7 or 8 in Pathfinder (and probably in 3.5, but I'm not learned enough to make that claim). Indeed, I've created evil NPCs where I struggle with this problem as a character concept. Why would they be after a powerful artifact to help them rule the world, when they can just create their own plane and populate it with slaves? Why have a fortress when you can teleport to miles inside a mountain and be permanently safe from pesky adventurers. Why fight your opponents when several times per day you can attempt to just mentally dominate them and make your worst enemy your best friend until you ask him to do something completely out of character, and even then he only gets a +2 to a new saving throw? Why raise an army to fight a city when you can cloudkill the populace a few times over? Why even pursuit research when you can once per day wish for that exact knowledge?

Seriously, figuring out the MO for a wizard at a high level is a daunting task, because at some point terrestrial reality is something of a bad joke, and even love is a triviality compared to the awe of all of creation at your fingertips. Even a PC wizard has to deal with the fact that at some point he's only fighting with the party because it's amusing... a bit like playing kickball with a bunch of kids and pretending to run to 1st base.

[TandemChelipeds]

Free will is really the decision of the character. If I have an aspiration for a sociopathic hermetic lifestyle granted only by obtaining sufficient power to do so, I'll do what I can to get that power, and at best tolerate mundane life until then. Even if I have a family, I could find a greater calling in doing whatever I want, even to the point of prioritizing over protecting / providing for my family. It's certainly not good, but in the context of the character describe, you said TN, not LG. I've met plenty of parents who go off to "find themselves" and abandon their children in the process, so this isn't beyond the realm of personal feasibility with a modern American, let alone a Wizard.

As such, this is a question of ability. A lvl 5 wizard can probably venture off on his own and be a reasonable hermit. But just being able to summon a fireball or rope doesn't make you an omnipotent creature divorced from mankind. I do feel this happens around when you can cast spell level 7 or 8 in Pathfinder (and probably in 3.5, but I'm not learned enough to make that claim). Indeed, I've created evil NPCs where I struggle with this problem as a character concept. Why would they be after a powerful artifact to help them rule the world, when they can just create their own plane and populate it with slaves? Why have a fortress when you can teleport to miles inside a mountain and be permanently safe from pesky adventurers. Why fight your opponents when several times per day you can attempt to just mentally dominate them and make your worst enemy your best friend until you ask him to do something completely out of character, and even then he only gets a +2 to a new saving throw? Why raise an army to fight a city when you can cloudkill the populace a few times over? Why even pursuit research when you can once per day wish for that exact knowledge?

Seriously, figuring out the MO for a wizard at a high level is a daunting task, because at some point terrestrial reality is something of a bad joke, and even love is a triviality compared to the awe of all of creation at your fingertips. Even a PC wizard has to deal with the fact that at some point he's only fighting with the party because it's amusing... a bit like playing kickball with a bunch of kids and pretending to run to 1st base.

That isn't necessarily such an issue in-character, though. Sure, Genesis and the like are spells you can give your character while leveling up, but Spells Known are exactly what the name implies: Spells known. A wizard may be high enough level to create a demiplane, but if their player never chose to give them that spell, the wizard simply never learned it. It remains a gap in their knowledge, and barring scrolls, they are just as incapable of it as they were the level before.

[StoneCipher]

That isn't necessarily such an issue in-character, though. Sure, Genesis and the like are spells you can give your character while leveling up, but Spells Known are exactly what the name implies: Spells known. A wizard may be high enough level to create a demiplane, but if their player never chose to give them that spell, the wizard simply never learned it. It remains a gap in their knowledge, and barring scrolls, they are just as incapable of it as they were the level before.

The Wizard would know genesis if his main prerogative was to be left alone. You'd have to work pretty hard at disappearing from the face of the earth. Assuming it's not known is silly.

[AMFV]

Immortal in the lich sense though, i.e. dependent on a very clear achilles heel. (Or series of heels, since he was a demilich.) So the desire for the lich to not rest on its laurels is understandable.

True, if only he'd been more competent at ascending to Godhood. I guess the lesson is if you're going to be a sneaky Lich and try to ascend, be like Vecna, not like Acerak.

[Amphetryon]

Allrighty. Just concider a normal human wizard. I guess every creature has a certain incentive in life, so this could be knowledge, wealth, a ton of women. At a certain level (needs not be lvl 20) all of these things can be easily obtained.

I really fail to see how something as mundane as material componenets would matter to a high level wiz.

Family could be some sort of issue. Let's say he has a family. If that means his wife (or vives. or grooms. or loli succubus) he could just have them in his sanctum.

I guess as said, every person cares about something. Lets say there is one thing he cares about. A normal thing.

There are always tomes.




Why not just jump to Sigil on a shopping trip here and there? Or get an ancient worm dragon buddy with 20 lvls of Wiz. He must know all the stuff.

The ideas with lvl 1 and 5 etc. ... are just silly. Its again a mechanical solution, so typical for people unable to see beyond RAW. It's not what I'm asking and you know it.
Ah, so you're asking for the answer you have conceived in your head, and we're to guess? That's not how I read the OP, but I do appreciate the clarification.