[3.5] Wizard/Shadowcaster build help

[Extra Anchovies]

Purpose: Exactly what the title says. I'm building a Wizard 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6, because I like double nines, but haven't actually played an arcane spellcaster through higher levels before and am having trouble picking out the feats I should take and the order in which I take them. I'm also a little unsure about whether I've made the best choices as far as mysteries are concerned.

Notes: I'll be using this list of suggested fixes for the Shadowcaster (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu&p=3273239&viewfull=1#post3273239), written by Ari Marmell, the creator of the class. The most notable fix is #5 (gain a bonus feat whenever a path is completed); all of the bonus feats after 1st level are gained through this alteration to the class.

Wizard spells will be focused on battlefield control, with some debuffs on the side; Shadowcaster mysteries will be geared toward antimagic/dispelling with some supplemental battlefield control.

The build at this point: (here's a more detailed spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gYE0gkbXwGVebjU_JcOYV5GaSHTaZ9WZzbGX-WpySvA/edit?usp=sharing) of the progression if you want to take a look at the selection of mysteries)
(general feats are normal text, bonus feats are underlined, Mysteries learned are italicized)
Wizard 1: Precocious Apprentice, Collegiate Wizard, Improved Initiative (via UA variant replacing Wizard feats with Fighter feats)
Shadowcaster 1
Shadowcaster 2: Still Mystery
Shadowcaster 3
Noctumancer 1
Noctumancer 2: Shadow Familiar, Extend Spell (from completing the Ebon Whispers path)
Noctumancer 3: Invisible Spell (from completing Dark Terrain)
Noctumancer 4
Noctumancer 5: Shadow Cast
Noctumancer 6
Noctumancer 7
Noctumancer 8: Miser With Magic Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell (from completing Unbinding Shade)
Noctumancer 9: Chain Spell (from completing Black Magic)
Noctumancer 10
Mystic Theurge 1: Shadow Reflection
Mystic Theurge 2
Mystic Theurge 3
Mystic Theurge 4: Maximize Spell Quicken Spell, Irresistible Spell (from completing Dark Metamorphosis)
Mystic Theurge 5: Persistent Spell (from completing Shadow Calling)
Mystic Theurge 6
Are there any changes to the feat progression that you think I should make? I am very unsure about both my choice of feats and the order in which I take them, especially the feats above 6th/7th level, and even more especially with the metamagic feats.

[Fax Celestis]

Depending upon the focus of your spells and mysteries, you might want to consider switching one of those feats for Shadow Weave Magic and dipping one level into Shadow Adept (which isn't a double advancement class, but will advance one of your classes, your choice), which will give you Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, and Tenacious Magic for free. All four would provide you, in total:


+1 DC to enchantment, illusion, and necromancy spells and mysteries
+1 vs SR for enchantment, illusion, and necromancy spells and mysteries
-1 CL for evocation and transmutation spells and mysteries
Cannot cast [Light] spells or mysteries
Cannot be detected (and your spells and mysteries cannot be detected) via divinations by spellcasters without Shadow Weave Magic unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check vs your caster level +11 (does not apply to evocations or transmutations)
Spellcasters without Shadow Weave Magic dispel your spells and mysteries at DC 15+spell level instead of DC 10+spell level (again, does not apply to evocation and transmutation)
+4 to beat SR vs those without Shadow Weave Magic

[Extra Anchovies]

Depending upon the focus of your spells and mysteries, you might want to consider switching one of those feats for Shadow Weave Magic and dipping one level into Shadow Adept (which isn't a double advancement class, but will advance one of your classes, your choice), which will give you Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, and Tenacious Magic for free. All four would provide you, in total:


+1 DC to enchantment, illusion, and necromancy spells and mysteries
+1 vs SR for enchantment, illusion, and necromancy spells and mysteries
-1 CL for evocation and transmutation spells and mysteries
Cannot cast [Light] spells or mysteries
Cannot be detected (and your spells and mysteries cannot be detected) via divinations by spellcasters without Shadow Weave Magic unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check vs your caster level +11 (does not apply to evocations or transmutations)
Spellcasters without Shadow Weave Magic dispel your spells and mysteries at DC 15+spell level instead of DC 10+spell level (again, does not apply to evocation and transmutation)
+4 to beat SR vs those without Shadow Weave Magic


Oooh, that all looks really nice. Is it a setting-specific PrC? I think I remember reading something about the Shadow Weave being a Faerûn thing. Either way, I'll definitely look into that; I could trade one of the levels of Mystic Theurge for the Shadow Adept dip and still get ninth-level casting for both.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, it's a Faerun thing, so Check With Your DM.™ Shadow Adept and the feats are in Player's Guide to Faerun.

Still, I don't see any real reason why it would be denied (sure, the shadow weave might not exist, but you can refluff the feat).

[jiriku]

That looks like a really solid build. I'd suggest making room for Quicken Spell somewhere in level 15+, because with a dual progression and with Chain, Sculpt, and Persistent giving you more mileage out of your existing spells, you're going to wind up with a lot of unused spell slots. Alternately, invest heavily in learning swift-cast spells.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, it's a Faerun thing, so Check With Your DM.™ Shadow Adept and the feats are in Player's Guide to Faerun.

Still, I don't see any real reason why it would be denied (sure, the shadow weave might not exist, but you can refluff the feat).

Very true. Unlocking ancient magical secrets fits rather neatly with the character backstory I've been developing, so there might not be much refluffing to do at all. The gist of the backstory is this: the character, one of the top students at a prestigious college of wizardry, found an ancient book on shadow magic in the college's library and started trying to learn the long-lost arts described within. His independent study of forbidden magic was eventually discovered and he was promptly expelled, so he packed his things, stole the book (no point in keeping knowledge locked up, after all), and was drawn to adventuring by his thirst for ancient magical knowledge.

Where do you think I should fit Shadow Weave Magic into the build? Maybe drop Shadow Cast, and toss in the level of Shadow Adept before Noctumancer 6? I'll have to chop off the last level of Mystic Theurge regardless of where Shadow Adept goes, but I can sacrifice one level of shadowcasting without losing any 9th-level mysteries or forgoing a bonus feat.


That looks like a really solid build. I'd suggest making room for Quicken Spell somewhere in level 15+, because with a dual progression and with Chain, Sculpt, and Persistent giving you more mileage out of your existing spells, you're going to wind up with a lot of unused spell slots. Alternately, invest heavily in learning swift-cast spells.

Thanks! Quicken would certainly have its uses, but I feel like it would be situational enough that getting ahold of a metamagic rod would be more useful. If I were to place Quicken Spell in there somewhere, what do you think it should replace?

[jiriku]

Miser with Magic and Maximize Spell are the ones that strike me as most replaceable. Maximize isn't extremely strong, mechanically, while Miser is really a solution in search of a problem considering how many spells and mysteries you already have.

[Extra Anchovies]

Miser with Magic and Maximize Spell are the ones that strike me as most replaceable. Maximize isn't extremely strong, mechanically, while Miser is really a solution in search of a problem considering how many spells and mysteries you already have.

Maximize was one of the ones I was less sure about, yeah. Battlefield control doesn't involve too many damaging spells, and those that are damaging are either one or two dice per turn (e.g. caustic mire, freezing fog) or too high-level for Maximize outside of epic-level play (e.g. Incendiary Cloud). Miser with Magic I tossed in there because it looked nice, not because I felt it was necessary, so it can go too. Maybe switch Maximize for Quicken, and swap out Miser with Magic for Empower Spell? When working with continuous, low-damage-per-turn spells, Empower would be about as effective as Maximize if not (on average) better.

[gorfnab]

If you are taking Shadow Familiar consider taking Improved Familiar for some more options. Uncanny Forethought is nice on some wizard builds, especially on easy-bake set ups (see link in my signature). Acidic Splatter would give you an attack option for when Arrow of Dusk doesn't work.

[jiriku]

Maximize was one of the ones I was less sure about, yeah. Battlefield control doesn't involve too many damaging spells, and those that are damaging are either one or two dice per turn (e.g. caustic mire, freezing fog) or too high-level for Maximize outside of epic-level play (e.g. Incendiary Cloud). Miser with Magic I tossed in there because it looked nice, not because I felt it was necessary, so it can go too. Maybe switch Maximize for Quicken, and swap out Miser with Magic for Empower Spell? When working with continuous, low-damage-per-turn spells, Empower would be about as effective as Maximize if not (on average) better.

This is a solid approach. I've seen a lot of math demonstrating that Empower is more efficient than Maximize for most spells, and you know, when I'm attacking with a big damage spell, I just want to roll some dice. Maximize takes that away from me.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you are taking Shadow Familiar consider taking Improved Familiar for some more options. Uncanny Forethought is nice on some wizard builds, especially on easy-bake set ups (see link in my signature). Acidic Splatter would give you an attack option for when Arrow of Dusk doesn't work.

Hm. Acidic Splatter seems nice, I'd be using a good number of acid spells anyways (Caustic Mire, Vitriolic Sphere, Acid Fog, etc.) that it would remain halfway relevant (also tossing a Forcecage around a group of enemies and then picking them off would be loads of fun). I'm not as sure about Improved Familiar; having a weasel familiar would help mitigate the poor Reflex save, and putting the stealth bonuses from the Dark template onto an already sneaky little fella would create a rather effective scout if the need arises.

ETA:

This is a solid approach. I've seen a lot of math demonstrating that Empower is more efficient than Maximize for most spells, and you know, when I'm attacking with a big damage spell, I just want to roll some dice. Maximize takes that away from me.

Very true. Rolling dice is fun. I'll swap Miser with Magic for Empower, and Maximize for Quicken; the replacements are now noted in the original post.

ETA2: gorfnab, I just realized that you're the guy who assembled this wonderful little handbook! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11610) I came across it randomly in an index of handbooks, and after reading it decided to construct this build :smallbiggrin: