Knowledge Devotion vs Disguise Self

[Wacky89]

Hi how does this interaction work? Since they make a knowledge check on based what they see dont they?
What about polymorph effects/wild shape. I'm curious if any1 has had experience dealing with this.

[Seppo87]

Full RAI approach

1) they make the check
2) they add the bonus
3) you, as the DM, pretend to account for the bonus when they attack, when you actually don't
4) if they get suspicious because they figured out the opponent's AC and they believe they should have hit, allow an Intelligence check as a free action
5) if they win the check, you reveal that the creature is behaving strangely and they can't read it correctly.
6) if they fail the check, no information is provided
7) if they manage to see through the disguise, the original die roll is applied to the appropriate kinowledge check instead (or just let them roll again)

[Wacky89]

any1 else? Would like some extra input

[Silva Stormrage]

I would say that they roll the first creature type. Then roll the knowledge check each round against a DC you deem appropriate. Once they pass you tell them that they don't seem to be acting like a normal member of there race and they may have some disguise or transformation magic active.

[peacenlove]

You can secretly make a hidden spot or maybe even a Will save to disbelieve the illusion, since you basically interact with the illusion at that point (careful examination in order to remember information)

[heavyfuel]

Given that it's an Insight bonus, and it's tied to the Knowledge skill, it makes sense that the person using KDev shouldn't get the bonus for something that is, currently, unidentifiable.

Note, however, this line from the spell: "A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion."

Well, if you're fighting the guy, then you're interacting with him. As such, you get an Will save to see through it. Also, an experienced character can notice that his blows aren't being as effective as they should be and the DM should mention that.

[Extra Anchovies]

When they make the Knowledge check to determine their insight bonus, also roll a secret Will save to see if they catch the illusion right away. Then, if they fail the first will save, give them another Will save the first time they directly interact (e.g. hitting it with a stick), this time with a bonus equal to twice the insight bonus from Knowledge Devotion (e.g. if KD gives them +2 attack/damage, then the Will save is at an extra +4).

[Mr Adventurer]

I wouldn't have Knowledge Devotion give an extra, free, vector for getting a Will save vs Illusions. They can roll their check against the perceived creature but after the first attack I'd be up front that their knowledge isn't working.

Making a melee attack I would count as interaction for the illusion, of course.

If they successfully see through the illusion, they can make another KD check.

Same as when fighting invisible creatures.

The probably RAW of it is that they make their check ignoring the illusion and get the bonus...

[Extra Anchovies]

I wouldn't have Knowledge Devotion give an extra, free, vector for getting a Will save vs Illusions. They can roll their check against the perceived creature but after the first attack I'd be up front that their knowledge isn't working.

Making a melee attack I would count as interaction for the illusion, of course.

If they successfully see through the illusion, they can make another KD check.

Same as when fighting invisible creatures.

The probably RAW of it is that they make their check ignoring the illusion and get the bonus...

Well, the KD check is (not by RAW, but through common sense) almost always made at the same time as a Knowledge check to ID the creature, and it makes sense to just use the same die roll for the IDing check and the KD check (doesn't make much sense to fail to identify a monster and then get a +5 insight bonus against it). Maybe something where the Knowledge check to identify the creature is opposed by the magically disguised creature's Disguise check (with the +10 modifier from Disguise Self)? Then it's pitting one character's ability to know about a creature's physiology against another character's ability to emulate that physiology. If the PC's Knowledge check beats the disguised creature's Disguise check (rolled secretly), then they'd know that something's up and get a free Will save to disbelieve. If the Knowledge check isn't enough to beat the Disguise check but still grants an insight bonus via KD (which it always does), then they'd know after attacking it once or twice that their enemy isn't responding correctly to their blows, and they'd probably be eligible for another Will save.

[Trasilor]

Hi how does this interaction work? Since they make a knowledge check on based what they see dont they?
What about polymorph effects/wild shape. I'm curious if any1 has had experience dealing with this.

I don't see how this is an issue.

Knowledge check (and thus Knowledge Devotion) works off of Creature Type. This is not to be confused with race. Creature Type includes: Aberration, Animal, Construct, Dragon, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Outsider, Plant, Undead and Vermin.

There may be a few more, but the point is, some spells change these, others do not.

Disguise Check: Cannot change type
Disguise Self: Cannot change type.
Alter Self: Cannot change type
Polymorph: You adopt the new type - with all the benefits and penalties thereof
Wildshape: You change type - specifically to Animal
Shapechange: You change type

What is important to remember changing one's race does not change one's creature type.

[Telok]

Knowledge check (and thus Knowledge Devotion) works off of Creature Type. This is not to be confused with race...
What is important to remember changing one's race does not change one's creature type.

Trasilor seems to be correct.

However if you do allow an Aasimar or Tiefling or Elan to disguise itself as a humanoid remember that the Disguise skill is opposed by the Spot skill. Since any attempt to disguise or hide your race or type must use the Disguise skill (this includes all the spells, they only give bonuses to Disguise checks, they do not replace the skill) anyone trying to identify them is allowed a Spot check to see through the disguise.

[Curbstomp]

What Trasilor and Telok said.