Trouble with a high damage archer

[fishyfishyfishy]

I recently gave the Hanks Energy Bow to the swift hunter in the group as a quest reward and I am finding that the obscene damage she is capable of is now an even greater problem than ever before. Things that used to stop her cold like wind wall and damage reduction are no longer an issue for her. The party is level 10, and she can deal enough damage to take down any threat up to 5 levels higher in one or two rounds. The only thing I can think of is using miss chances. I don't want to take the weapon away, I just want to be able to challenge her. What advice can you offer?

[bjoern]

I recently gave the Hanks Energy Bow to the swift hunter in the group as a quest reward and I am finding that the obscene damage she is capable of is now an even greater problem than ever before. Things that used to stop her cold like wind wall and damage reduction are no longer an issue for her. The party is level 10, and she can deal enough damage to take down any threat up to 5 levels higher in one or two rounds. The only thing I can think of is using miss chances. I don't want to take the weapon away, I just want to be able to challenge her. What advice can you offer?

Have him go against something with a high AC and DR. that will keep him from power shotting too high. And DR gets more mileage from multiple attacks.

Hit him with something that lowers strength or dex

Force ward

[Extra Anchovies]

What exactly is Hank's Energy Bow? I know its name references the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, and that it's some sort of very powerful bow, but every link regarding it that I've come across has eventually led me to a dead-end 404 page on the WotC website.

[Forrestfire]

It's a bow that lets you power attack with a 1:1 ratio, iirc. Also, WotC moved all their 3.5 articles from www.wizards.com to archive.wizards.com, which is why you're getting 404s.

[Fax Celestis]

Entropic shield. Close quarters fighting (like a series of tunnels!).

Or stop using single opponents. Single opponents are not challenging because of the way the action economy works. Stop using all the same monster, for that matter.

What's the party's level?

[fishyfishyfishy]

What exactly is Hank's Energy Bow? I know its name references the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, and that it's some sort of very powerful bow, but every link regarding it that I've come across has eventually led me to a dead-end 404 page on the WotC website.

It must be one of the many things lost in their recent purge of all things 3rd edition. Sad.

It's a +2 composite longbow that has a base 2d6 force damage and an auto adjusting strength bonus. And you can take power shots with it that basically function like the power attack feat.

[holywhippet]

Weight of numbers maybe? Instead of giving her a small number of high HP opponents, give her a lot of low HP opponents. Ideally ones with their own ranged attacks.

If worst comes to worse, unleash Tucker's kobolds on her.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Entropic shield. Close quarters fighting (like a series of tunnels!).

Or stop using single opponents. Single opponents are not challenging because of the way the action economy works. Stop using all the same monster, for that matter.

What's the party's level?

I mentioned they are level 10 in the OP.

Single opponents are not the norm for my group. I have used large groups of enemies before. Most recently was a bunch of Warforged Crusaders and Warforged Warmages. The warmages used fell drain fell frighten arcane thesis magic missile to deliver negative levels and stack fear while the crusaders blocked the path to them and prevented the melee guys from getting by. She was more effective in that encounter than most, due to being the only one who could target the warmages and take them down two at a time.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's a bow that lets you power attack with a 1:1 ratio, iirc. Also, WotC moved all their 3.5 articles from www.wizards.com to archive.wizards.com, which is why you're getting 404s.

Ah, I thought it was something along those lines but wasn't entirely sure. Do you know if there's some way to take a www.wizards.com URL and convert it to an archive.wizards.com URL (e.g. just adding "archive." before the address), or would it take more digging to find archived WotC articles from a (now-defunct) link to the original article?

[Forrestfire]

If you can get the url that's linking you to a 404, right-click it and click "copy link address." Then you can just replace the word and go.

[Milodiah]

If the other PCs are forming a human/demihuman/humanoid/you-get-the-point wall between her and the enemies, then get enemies around that wall by whatever means necessary. A delayed ambush that waits for the last member of the party to pass by before springing the ambush. Enemies that can fly, go ethereal, teleport through the various means, enemies that can climb/jump/burrow, apparent allies/noncombatants that betray the party at the right tactical moment, etc. If all else fails, attempt to outflank the players using high-mobility enemies (even if it means sticking a little bit of 1" grid to the side of your battlemap.)

If your party's enemies are all coming from one direction, then there's a problem right there. They aren't being smart. Speaking of being smart, the enemies can tell she's putting out so much more DPS than the others, she's therefore the primary target.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you can get the url that's linking you to a 404, right-click it and click "copy link address." Then you can just replace the word and go.

Excellent, thank you! The inability to access most/all of the WotC 3e articles has been quite the thorn in my side this past week or so.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Hmm. Looks like the answer is going to be better tactics, ambushes, taking advantage of terrain, and a splash of useful spells. Cramped underground combat with deadly kobolds might be exactly what I need after all....

It gets difficult to keep up with a group of intelligent players who have excellent tactics in combat. If the party has forewarning of combat it gets even more silly to deal with because the party Artificer routinely gives her the Splitting enhancement and other abilities that might be situational.


And thank you all for the swift replies.

[Fax Celestis]

I mentioned they are level 10 in the OP.

Single opponents are not the norm for my group. I have used large groups of enemies before. Most recently was a bunch of Warforged Crusaders and Warforged Warmages. The warmages used fell drain fell frighten arcane thesis magic missile to deliver negative levels and stack fear while the crusaders blocked the path to them and prevented the melee guys from getting by. She was more effective in that encounter than most, due to being the only one who could target the warmages and take them down two at a time.

Alright, so you do have some knowledge here.

Try using targeted debuffs? Hold person is a classic, but it could range anywhere between ray of enfeeblement and armor lock to confusion and power word: stun. Or, hell, put in a few guys with Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows/Return Fire.

Edit: or a targeted dispel magic, which would strip artificer buffs and possibly turn off the now for a while (which might possibly mean it can't even be used while it's non magical, idk)

[Milodiah]

Kobold warrens, you say? Be sure to have them coming out of the walls.

[Flickerdart]

Many an archer has been humbled by a simple net - penalties to both Dexterity and attack rolls are supremely unpleasant, and the archer can be dragged towards an untimely demise by the net's thrower.

Don't forget that skirmish damage doesn't apply beyond 30 feet, and if she's that close to angry men with large swords, she shouldn't be able to keep firing with impunity. Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) will help get around pesky meat shields.

[VoxRationis]

The net has a range of 10 feet by default; while you might be able to throw it farther, you won't be able to do any dragging. I'm not sure if longer-range ones exist in some obscure sourcebook.

[Fax Celestis]

There's always the harpoon...

[(Un)Inspired]

Alright, so you do have some knowledge here.

Try using targeted debuffs? Hold person is a classic, but it could range anywhere between ray of enfeeblement and armor lock to confusion and power word: stun. Or, hell, put in a few guys with Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows/Return Fire.

Edit: or a targeted dispel magic, which would strip artificer buffs and possibly turn off the now for a while (which might possibly mean it can't even be used while it's non magical, idk)


This.

Also don't forget that enemies can have really simple combos that just waste your archers individual turns. Why didn't those warmages all have contingency and contingents spell up? Some no action walls of force and resilient spheres should make her bow pretty useless pretty fast.

If you want to avoid just throwing caster at your ranger then use stealthy darkstalker shadow hand teleporting types who can get to her and stay on her before she gets a chance to act.

OR send a counter archer after her that has levels in wizard and arcane archer. Pump his initiative and have him pin an AMF to her chest so her bow is useless.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Or, hell, put in a few guys with Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows/Return Fire.


I like this idea :smallamused:

[StoneCipher]

Give her situations where she is not allowed to really take advantage of the bow. Something to the effect of a cave system where the halls are very short and twisty. Ambushes work well too. But, regardless, make sure you don't single out the PC unless they gain a specific reputation and you can reason that a similar archer of skill would like to challenge her in sorts, for an example.

[jiriku]

Good advice all around.

On a strategic level, consider combat challenges in which the focus of the combat isn't to kill all the enemies, but to perform some other action, like defending an NPC, protecting or grabbing a macguffin, reaching a location on the other side of the battlefield within a limited period of time (assuming you have a way to not make this trivial via teleportation), or capturing an opponent alive. In these situations, the players could potentially kill all their foes but still lose the battle, so the archer's ability to kill enemies, while useful, isn't going to be the determining factor in the fight.

[daremetoidareyo]

Setting is a vital key to offset players.

Make them have to protect a caravan against intelligent raiders. Twice. Attacking from both sides.

PCs love space in combat. So make em squeeze in between sheer rockfaces when they encounter shrieking scary things.

PCs hate underwater adventures. Haaaate them. Underwater combat and magic blows.

Optimized halfling hurlers (w/way too many tangle foot bags and crystal lances) riding domesticated rust monsters: sometimes they need to humbled to be appreciative.

Depending on how serious you get: 3-5 cloakers, a home brewed trapper, some 2-3 lurker aboves, and 3 treasure chests sitting by a hearth (all 4 of which are mimics who don't attack until approached.) All in the same room. While you're at it, put some hauntshifted things in there too.

Fights on bridges, preferably lit aflame, against a wall of mooks pinning them into the center.

I sometimes have a hard time guaging a party's abilities, so I set up situations where I can add a wave or two to wear them down a bit as an xp award for tactics being more effective than I had predicted.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), for those wondering.

Encounters in small rooms and corridors that only go 10-15 ft. before another 90-degree turn are extremely difficult to make ranged attacks in, especially if the opponents have reach weapons.

Fog and darkness effects that limit visibility will prevent him from even making attacks on opponents further than 10 ft. away, and again opponents with reach make this especially difficult.

[jiriku]

Also, do you optimize your monsters for defense? My CR 15 monsters typically have 150-350 hp each, and formidable AC, saves, resistances, and immunities. If you're using stuff straight out of the book, most of those monsters are poorly designed glass cannons.

[Flickerdart]

Also, do you optimize your monsters for defense? My CR 15 monsters typically have 150-350 hp each, and formidable AC, saves, resistances, and immunities. If you're using stuff straight out of the book, most of those monsters are poorly designed glass cannons.
Really? I have found default monsters to be much the opposite - with reasonable defenses but pathetic attacks that generally avoid putting the party in any real danger while padding out encounter lengths.

[MasterFu]

Try forcing a change of tactics:

Magical (or non-magical) fog.

Burrowing/insubstantial/ethereal foes that can come at the party thru a wall or the ground.

Pits or illusionary walls that allow ambushes.

Confusion/discord effect that has the party fighting each other long enough for the monsters to close.

Curse or effect that makes the character unable to use the bow for a time. Uncontrollable rage effect that forces character to always choose melee when possible, left arm turns into a tentacle, one of character's arms is always ethereal, etc. Not permanently, but useful as a plot hook.

[Darkweave31]

An argument can be made that even though the arrows deal force damage, maybe even "force effects", they are still arrows and thus suffer wind wall... or at the vary least the 30% miss chance listed in wind wall for ranged weapons other than arrows and bolts.

Miss chance, ranges outside skirmish range, terrain, obscured vision, tight quarters, human shields (did she take improved precise shot? because awesome either way), force dragons, disable the bow temporarily with dispel magic, and my personal favorite... roleplay challenges (because fantasy chess bores me)

[Dread_Head]

Any sort of BFC spells that cut down on a Swift Hunters movement are good, think Entangle, Web, Solid Fog even Grease works if they don't have ranks in balance. Any of the multitude of low level spells that cause blindness screw with archers to no end, (glitterdust, blindness/deafness, blinding spittle etc). Heck a good old Tanglefoot bag can stop movement which should reduce her effectiveness.

Or don't rely on spells to do it, maybe the fight is happening in a tight corridor where they can't move that far or amongst difficult terrain etc.

Don't pull these tactics all the time though as the character will quickly see you are trying to nerf them and probably get a little annoyed.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Don't pull these tactics all the time though as the character will quickly see you are trying to nerf them and probably get a little annoyed.

Oh of course. I have no intention of alienating my players. I just want to be able to challenge them with combat a little more effectively every now and then. I include plenty of combat situations where enemies are unorganized pushovers.

[Darrin]

I am a little puzzled how much extra damage she is getting? Hank's Energy Bow is 2d6, which is not that much different from, say, a +1 bow with the Frost or Shock property. Power Shot can pump it up to +10 but with the same penalty on attack, presumably that would mean more missed attacks.

You mentioned Damage Reduction, but Hank's Energy Bow is, I think, one of the three force effects in 3.x that does not automatically bypass DR (the other two are the Crystal Helm soulmeld and Riverine weapons). There is no text in the description that says it bypasses DR. Force is not an energy descriptor in 3.5, so it does not bypass DR unless it's a spell effect. The Force weapon property (MIC) says it bypasses DR in the description, but if it didn't say that, it wouldn't.

Some other ideas to challenge Spikebarb Arrowpants:

Mirror image and it's little buddy instant diversion (Races of the Dragon). A gaggle of some low-level sorcerer kobolds with instant diversion, maybe wings of cover (same book) on the leader, and a few wands of magic missile might be able to put some dents in her caboose.

Blocking LOS: silent image, dark way, wall of gloom, and wall of light can be thrown up to partition the battlefield. Obscuring mist and pyrotechnics can help shut down ranged attacks and give the melee meatbags time to close the gap. Unseen servant can light a smokestick and carry it around the battlefield to give your grunts mobile cover. Unseen servant with horn of fog (2000 GP, DMG) can also create a 10' wall of fog for creatures to hide behind.

Grappling: Can't shoot a bow in a grapple. Use summon monster/summon nature's ally/conjure ice beast to plop a grappler right next to the archer. Even if it only takes her 1 round to get free, that's a round she can't use her bow. A low-level druid can shut her down with kelpstrand or blinding spittle. Sorcerers/wizards/warlocks can use earthen grasp. Grappling is one of the few things that monks are almost good at: high speed to close the distance, and Improved Grapple as a bonus feat. Feather Token: Whip is a good one-shot fire-and-forget grappler that low-level mooks can carry around.

Weather: High winds can incur a penalty on ranged attacks or make them impossible. Druids can cast cloudburst (Spell Compendium) at level 1. Sleet storm blocks LOS. Gust of wind incurs a -4 penalty on ranged attacks.

Miss Chance: You mentioned this already. Entropic shield and darkness work pretty well for that. Here's a few more: rot of ages (Dragon Magic, no save concealment), wall of smoke (Spell Compendium), cloud of bewilderment (Spell Compendium, save vs nausea), veil of shadows (Spell Compendium), and storm mote (Sandstorm).

Dex debuffs: Web, entangle effects, nets, lassos, fatigue, centipede poison, and Lahm's finger darts may drop her Dex below 13, at which point Rapid Shot (and any feats that depend on it) stops working.

Twenty 1st-level archers + drow arrow poison (Savage Species p. 47, Fort save DC 17). She'll blow a Fort save eventually.

[Fax Celestis]

I am a little puzzled how much extra damage she is getting? Hank's Energy Bow is 2d6, which is not that much different from, say, a +1 bow with the Frost or Shock property. Power Shot can pump it up to +10 but with the same penalty on attack, presumably that would mean more missed attacks.

You mentioned Damage Reduction, but Hank's Energy Bow is, I think, one of the three force effects in 3.x that does not automatically bypass DR (the other two are the Crystal Helm soulmeld and Riverine weapons). There is no text in the description that says it bypasses DR. Force is not an energy descriptor in 3.5, so it does not bypass DR unless it's a spell effect. The Force weapon property (MIC) says it bypasses DR in the description, but if it didn't say that, it wouldn't.

Presumably, Skirmish/Improved Skirmish for +4 atk/+4d6 dam, intelligent favored enemy selection to break immunities (and a little extra damage), plus any buffs the artificer throws down (magic weapon, bane, and splitting, most likely). It's actually pretty easy to get a swift hunter up to something like 15d6 an arrow if you play your cards right and have helpful allies.

[dextercorvia]

To add to the list of things that will help. The entangled condition is a penalty to dex and attacks. It won't shut her down entirely, but will reduce her ability to Power Shot or hit with said shots, which should lower the damage slightly.

Entangling Exhalation is fun for this -- so many monsters have breath weapons, and even if they don't just toss on a level or two of DFA or make them Half-Dragons.

The first level spell Stick Floor is a great hour/level spell that can make someone entangled. Sculpted you can make an entire area (say before during and after a corner so she can't just avoid it) an entangling mess.

[SinsI]

How about giving the front melee guys Tower shields? If you give up your attacks (that you can't make anyway due to being out of range), they provide total cover for wielder and guys directly behind him.

[Milodiah]

While the guys directly behind them hammer the target with Rapid Reload (light crossbow) and Rapid Shot!

[Curmudgeon]

Admit you made a mistake, and that Wind Wall still works as stated. There's nothing in Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) which states any particular ability to ignore the effects of the spell.

[fishyfishyfishy]

To answer the question on the damage she has 2d6 base, 3d6 skirmish, 2d6 improved skirmish, average +2 knowledge devotion, enhancement and favored enemy bonuses, splitting and bane are added by the Artificer if they know ahead of time. Add in the travel devotion and luck devotion and with a full attack she is capable of some pretty serious damage.

EDIT: I'm liking all of these suggestions so far and I appreciate the input everyone is giving.

[Darrin]

To answer the question on the damage she has 2d6 base, 3d6 skirmish, 2d6 improved skirmish, average +2 knowledge devotion, enhancement and favored enemy bonuses, splitting and bane are added by the Artificer if they know ahead of time. Add in the travel devotion and luck devotion and with a full attack she is capable of some pretty serious damage.

Aha. Thank you for clarifying. So, if I understand the situation correctly, if you just replaced Hank's Energy Bow with a +1 composite longbow, she'd still be doing obscene damage. Your wording in the OP seemed to imply that it was Hank's Energy Bow that was responsible for the obscene damage, and 2d6 + Power Shot didn't sound obscene enough to me.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I was under the impression that Hanks Energy Bow bypassed DR and wind. It seems that part of the problem is my own doing.

[jiriku]

Really? I have found default monsters to be much the opposite - with reasonable defenses but pathetic attacks that generally avoid putting the party in any real danger while padding out encounter lengths.

Maybe my experience is just colored by how my players optimize. They love damage-dealing builds, and by 10th level there's always at least one guy in the party who can output 100 damage per round or more. They've gradually learned to build more well-rounded characters with effective defenses, but it took a lot of character deaths for them to learn that hit points and saving throws are important.

[Piggy Knowles]

I was under the impression that Hanks Energy Bow bypassed DR and wind. It seems that part of the problem is my own doing.

It deals force damage, so it should bypass DR as does the force enhancement, but it's not spelled out. There is no reason it should bypass wind wall.

[Necroticplague]

It deals force damage, so it should bypass DR as does the force enhancement, but it's not spelled out. There is no reason it should bypass wind wall.

Force damage doesn't bypass dr.


A special type of damage dealt by force effects, such as a magic missile spell. A force effect can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality. Nothing about piercing DR. Now lets look at DR.


A creature with this special quality (extraordinary or supernatural) ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Using hanks bow is still damage from a weapon. As a result, DR applies.

[Piggy Knowles]

Force damage doesn't bypass dr.

Nothing about piercing DR. Now lets look at DR.

Using hanks bow is still damage from a weapon. As a result, DR applies.

Notice I said "should bypass DR as does the force enhancement," but that it's not spelled out. The force enhancement explicitly bypasses DR. Hank's Energy Bow can be more or less deconstructed as a +2 force composite longbow with a special ability that grants power shots. (It's not a straight conversion, but that's about as close as it gets.)

Per the force enhancement:


A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack. These force projectiles automatically overcome damage reduction and suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets, but they don't damage creatures immune to force effects.

Compare this to the older version of the force property, found in Arms & Equipment Guide, which included no such language about damage reduction.

I'm aware that Hank's Energy Bow doesn't actually have the force property, and therefore doesn't overcome DR as the force property does. I'm saying it should, though. Hank's Bow was published about a year before the MIC ever came out, but I suspect if MIC had come out first, they would have used the updated 3.5 version of the force enhancement. That's conjecture, but as a DM, I would always say Hank's Bow overcomes DR.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, any non-lazy archer should just carry around appropriate DR-piercing arrows.

[Necroticplague]

Notice I said "should bypass DR as does the force enhancement," but that it's not spelled out. The force enhancement explicitly bypasses DR. Hank's Energy Bow can be more or less deconstructed as a +2 force composite longbow with a special ability that grants power shots.

Whoops, I thought you meant should as in "I have power attack, so I should be able to trade in my accuracy for some more damage." Mea culpa.

[emeraldstreak]

Send enough (advanced) arrow demons to beat her at her own game.

[Fax Celestis]

Send enough (advanced) arrow demons to beat her at her own game.

God I love arrow demons. TWFing longbows is badass.

[emeraldstreak]

God I love arrow demons. TWFing longbows is badass.

One of the best fights we've ever done: giant woodlands map, fairly optimized party, lots of arrow demons shooting/porting/hiding at range.

[1pwny]

When in doubt: Send in the Fighters! :smallwink:

Make them take out a big number of Dex-based fighters, with a few Monks thrown in. The Fighters should all have Snatch Arrows and the follow-ups, and everybody runs.

Conclusion: A screaming mass of melee meatsheilds, that catch arrows for fun in their free time.

[Milodiah]

To cross-apply modern combat to this situation, the most common solution to a dangerous enemy armed with a precision weapon is suppressive fire. If the enemy gets shut down by sheer volume of incoming fire, and has to remain in cover or risk death, then it's mission accomplished for the moment.

[SinsI]

While the guys directly behind them hammer the target with Rapid Reload (light crossbow) and Rapid Shot!

Total cover works both ways - guys behind Tower shield wielder can't attack either.

[Psyren]

Archers are trivial to shut down. No matter how good his bow is, even if it ignores wind and DR, it can still be rendered useless by fog, magical darkness, being grappled/disarmed/sundered, wall/sphere spells, or simply having something drop into melee with him. And that's before you get to the targeted dispel and arrow snatching suggestions I saw earlier. There are plenty of ways to challenge an archer without even challenging archers specifically, and archery is still on the weak side even when it does work. This should be no problem.

[Tvtyrant]

Have them fight undead, constructs and oozes from time to time to avoid skirmish damage. All three together might be a bit much...

Make the character stay still so they cannot skirmish by using Solid Fog and/or difficult terrain. Have an opponent cast one of the many, many wall spells and then move up close. AoO fighters with spiked chains come up and make archery hard to live through.

Personally I would let the Energy Bow shoot through Wind Wall and DR, because archery mostly sucks otherwise. Heck Protection from Arrows is very similar to Heart of Earth/Stone Skin, but is two levels lower and has no costly material components because archery is clearly for NPCs.

[Fax Celestis]

Have them fight undead, constructs and oozes from time to time to avoid skirmish damage. All three together might be a bit much...

Depends on how the Swift Hunter chose their favored enemies, honestly, since that lets it break immunity for skirmish.

[Tvtyrant]

Depends on how the Swift Hunter chose their favored enemies, honestly, since that lets it break immunity for skirmish.

That is true. Throw in enough types and some of them are going to be immune :P