So I want to hunt demons..

[magicwalker]

Out of all the books, I was wondering which class / prestige class mixture most closely would resemble an adventurer who tracks down and destroys demons (not necessarily because they are evil).

I'm looking for someone who has spent so much time hunting down demons that he's on the verge of becoming one, e.g. Illidan from WarCraft3. Doesn't necessarily have to be a melee class.

Limitations: an alignment of chaotic neutral, chaotic good, or true neutral. available to humans.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[cupkeyk]

Planer Ranger Variant from UA?

[Orzel]

Yup Planar Ranger variant

[Collin152]

I think Complete Divine has something all about taking out Demons

[Gralamin]

Also Consider:
Feats from Fiendish Codex I and II
Malconvoker from Complete Scoundrel
Almost anything from Heroes of Horror

[Frojoe21]

Knight of the Chalice deals with fighting evil outsiders if memory serves.

[Dhavaer]

Knight of the Chalice deals with fighting evil outsiders if memory serves.

Doesn't fit in the alignment limitations; KotC requires an alignment of LG.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

What about holy scourge from FC2?

[Collin152]

If not using UA, next best shot is Ranger, favored enemy Outsiders (Evil) with prestige class of Horizon Walker for those planar bonuses, if you don't like the higher level abilities of rangers, though Planar Rangers do it all better (As far as i know)

[cupkeyk]

And aside from being a planar Ranger from UA you can add the planar Ranger substitution levels from the Planar Handbook. You get some nifty abilities such as plane shift and using survival to determine where portals lead.

[TheOOB]

The biggest thing you need to hunt down demons is the abilty to use a dimensional anchor like effect. Most demons have the ability to teleport themselves+50 pounds of gear, so acually killing a demon is really really hard unless you can lock down astral travel.

So, once again, like virtually all situations, the wizard wins.

[Hallavast]

The biggest thing you need to hunt down demons is the abilty to use a dimensional anchor like effect. Most demons have the ability to teleport themselves+50 pounds of gear, so acually killing a demon is really really hard unless you can lock down astral travel.

So, once again, like virtually all situations, the wizard wins.

Yes. Mechanically, wizard "wins". You may want to try to shoot for the Sacred Exorcist from Complete Divine. It has some handy abilities, and you can use it to mold the wizard into a person that fits the flavor for what you want. A friend of mine plays a character exactly like that, actually.

[Thomas]

Anything's better for hunting demons than a ranger. (Rangers plain, you know, suck at everything.) Play a cleric; they're just about perfect for this job. Get a PrC that gives you appropriate abilities.

[Morty]

Heh, I've been thinking about making demonhunter myself, though I was aiming at human specialized in killing evil outsiders, without going Illidan. I haven't come to anything conclusive, though. Ranger would be nice conceptually- favored enemy and tracking, but I didn't want to do TWF.

[Enzario]

I'd go with a cleric. I think i remember seeing a feat somewhere (I think it was PHBII) that allows you to turn/rebuke outsiders as if they were undead. Plus clerics get all those nifty planar spells.

[Kantolin]

(Rangers plain, you know, suck at everything.)
Whoa... like, compared to other core fighter-types? Purely at demons?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

How about a wizard that specializes in using Greater Planar Binding? Instead of looking for them, he could just get up in the morning, make a circle on the floor, then murder whatever pops up for amusement. Psychologically, he loves killing. Absolutely enjoys the feeling he gets from snuffing something out. He doesn't consider it to be all that wrong, since he's killing demons and all, but he is, in fact, steadily becoming more and more demonic each time he summons one just so he can get his fix.

[Collin152]

Whoa... like, compared to other core fighter-types? Purely at demons?
He said everything... Who get's to tell him? Ooh! Ooh! Let him do it!

[cupkeyk]

Rangers need major fixing. A planar ranger with fast movement instead of TWF(simple ranger from UA) with the Planar handbook substitution levels could be highly specialize planar trackers. But then following your quarry home is not as smart as keeping him where he is.

A ranger is a good tracker at most, but just because of the free feat. Scouts, Druids, and Barbarians can just be as good with it.

[Kantolin]

Hey, I didn't mean 'Rangers are a very good class', especially when you get to 'in general'.

I meant that, insofar as directly tracking and slaying demons, the ranger seems like it'd do better than other martial classes at it through favored enemy. Sure, magic wins and a Ranger doesn't relevantly cast magic that helps him win, but compared to Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues? I'd assume a Ranger could at least compare there.

[Woot Spitum]

Out of all the books, I was wondering which class / prestige class mixture most closely would resemble an adventurer who tracks down and destroys demons (not necessarily because they are evil).

I'm looking for someone who has spent so much time hunting down demons that he's on the verge of becoming one, e.g. Illidan from WarCraft3. Doesn't necessarily have to be a melee class.

Limitations: an alignment of chaotic neutral, chaotic good, or true neutral. available to humans.

Thanks in advance for your input.

The Warcraft RPG campaign setting supplement Alliance and Horde Compendium has a Demonhunter prestige class, although finding it now that the World of Warcraft campaign setting is out may be difficult. I don't know if thw WOW setting has it though.

[cupkeyk]

Hey, I didn't mean 'Rangers are a very good class', especially when you get to 'in general'.

I meant that, insofar as directly tracking and slaying demons, the ranger seems like it'd do better than other martial classes at it through favored enemy. Sure, magic wins and a Ranger doesn't relevantly cast magic that helps him win, but compared to Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues? I'd assume a Ranger could at least compare there.

Generally, Urban Tracking and Gather Information is functionally better since demons and devils work in civilization, spreadng hedonism, corrution, tyranny, greed, and such. Rogues and Bards, especially bards since they can use Divi and cast planar binding or forbiddance from a scroll if necessary.

[Thomas]

Hey, I didn't mean 'Rangers are a very good class', especially when you get to 'in general'.

I meant that, insofar as directly tracking and slaying demons, the ranger seems like it'd do better than other martial classes at it through favored enemy.

No it wouldn't. Track and Wilderness Lore are pretty useless against a target that teleports at will (and is usually sedentary anyway, hiding in a lair, probably in a city). To hunt demons or devils, you need divination spells (both to find them and to pierce disguises), abjuration spells (to keep them at bay), and some offensive spells (since a great many especially target outsiders).

The ranger has absolutely nothing going for him. A proper melee cleric will even deal way more damage than a ranger. Favored Enemy is a decidedly pathetic ability. A THW fighter will deal a lot more damage against a demon than a ranger with favored enemy (Outsider (demon)).

So cleric.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Woops, I didn't mean holy scourge, I meant Hellreaver. My mistake.

[Kantolin]

Well... Cleric > Ranger. I am quite aware of this. A wizard would also do a better job of it (And probably a Sorceror or maybe even Bard).

I was mostly looking at:


Anything's better for hunting demons than a ranger.

That's the line that has gotten my attention. I was comparing them striclty, as I stated, to fighters/barbarians/paladins/rogues.

Yeek. A Ranger can do a more decent job than the other martial units, so if you'r eaiming for martiality, then hey.

[Druid]

If you do want to go Ranger there's a feat in BoED that lets you sense one of your favored enemies whne they're within a certain distance of you and deal extra damage to evil members of its type.

[Orzel]

If you do want to go Ranger there's a feat in BoED that lets you sense one of your favored enemies whne they're within a certain distance of you and deal extra damage to evil members of its type.

Nemesis is awesome
Greater Manyshot + Nemesis + good bow = nice
An archer planar ranger would do okay as a demon hunter. At least they won't die should they get hit twice.

Either way, no one would hunt demons alone. It's suicide most of the time. Demon hunter would require a team most of the time.

[The_Snark]

There's also those feats from either Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer, one of which increases your favored enemy bonus and the other of which ups your Power Attack ratio against favored enemies. With the right tactics, this could be killer.

Personally, I'd be a ranger/scout with the Swift Hunter feat, going Two-weapon fighting with Two-weapon Pounce... combine with Oversized Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Skirmish, maybe Leap Attack and Shock Trooper... it gets good. Might replace Scout with Fighter, because this is feat-heavy. The whole point is to catch your demon by surprise and kill it inside a round so it can't teleport away, fly, or do any of those other things that usually screw over melee fighters who fight demons.

[KIDS]

I have just recently entered a game with my demon hunter, not really close to Illidan but it is a similar concept. It's an elf ranger/warlock, who has seen countless battles against demons and slowly sunk even beneath their methods, starting to become one after a century of battle. Now he is reviled by both worlds, and seeks a honorable way out of it.

That's in RP sense.

Mechanically it also turned out to be a good idea. His primary weapon is a cold iron sickle, aided by Hideous Blow which allows you to channel eldritch blast through weapon. And note that Eldritch blast pierces almost all known resistances. Add the anti SR blast at high levels, and possibly Quicken Spell like ability (Flee the Scene) and that is it, you are a very effective demon hunter.

My final plan is Ranger 3/Warlock 7/Acolyte of the Skin 10

Acolyte of the skin I also find very flavorful, try it!
Motto: "The one who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietszche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

found a link to the relevant CS if someone is interested: Demon Hunter (http://p197.ezboard.com/fd20worldofgreyhawkfrm4.showMessage?topicID=1131.t opic)

[Thomas]

Yeek. A Ranger can do a more decent job than the other martial units, so if you'r eaiming for martiality, then hey.

No, he can't. Rangers suck in combat (even straight Fighters are better at either archery or two-weapon fighting). A Paladin would be better equipped, even, with a bunch of appropriate spells at higher levels, the ability to detect evil and smite evil, and so on. The favored enemy ability is such a minor effect on damage potential, and being able to track enemies is irrelevant in this situation.

Comparing them directly, the Ranger is, as always, the worst of the martial core classes for any job.

A scant few levels of Ranger with an appropriate prestige class on top might actually work (though you're probably better off with some Fighter levels instead) - but that's hardly even a Ranger anymore.

[Selgeron]

i'd like to point out that the fighter in no way is better than the ranger in twf for one reason.

stats.

The ranger can have a dex of 10 and still do two weapon fighting and can just pump strength up higher and higher and higher.

If the fighter wants to take twf related feats he has to bump dex up.

this is of course using just core stuff.

[Thomas]

Uh, okay. A fighter can't have 2-3 high stats? Compared to the TWF ranger who needs the same stats, plus Wis, plus decent Int not to cripple the one thing rangers have going for them (skills) ...

[marjan]

And with the DEX 10 and light armor soon he will be dead ranger.

[Leon]

Add some Bracers, Rings and Amulets and dex 10 isnt too bad

[Leon]

No, he can't. Rangers suck in combat (even straight Fighters are better at either archery or two-weapon fighting). A Paladin would be better equipped, even, with a bunch of appropriate spells at higher levels, the ability to detect evil and smite evil, and so on. The favored enemy ability is such a minor effect on damage potential, and being able to track enemies is irrelevant in this situation.

Comparing them directly, the Ranger is, as always, the worst of the martial core classes for any job.

A scant few levels of Ranger with an appropriate prestige class on top might actually work (though you're probably better off with some Fighter levels instead) - but that's hardly even a Ranger anymore.

So if its So bad then why is it still a fun class to play?
Last time i played we got to lvl 18 (techincally - had a +2 LA on my ranger) - focused on Ranged combat and was a Undeniable force of damage and essential skills

(for those that want the Numbers - 16,22,14,10,14,12)

there were certin sitations where the ranger wasnt upto the par with the other memberes of the party - but then again there were a number of situations where (OMG) the wizard was unable to do much





If it all boils down to the "Wizard can do it better/CoDzilla can do it better" then why doesnt everyone play one of those 3 classes?

[Thomas]

I don't know why it would be a fun class to play. It's not, in our games. (Unless you're just using to get into a decent prestige class.) All the other characters - most of who are nowhere near optimized (they just don't suck) - will outdo the ranger. The ranger is bad at inflicting damage, and not any good at anything else.

Edit: What's with the strawman about wizards and codzillas all the time? I've already said a straight fighter (or barbarian, or paladin) will do anything better than a ranger, and this especially.

[Variable Arcana]

then why is it still a fun class to play?
The same reason people would still play CG drow if they had to battle a +5 LA.

Starts with "D" and rhymes with "Lizzt Do'urden".

[Matthew]

Poor old Ranger. Give him back his greatness! Ranger is quite a useful Level 1, if you are playing a Martial Character and want to start out with some Skill Points, but Combat Style is a trap.

[Kantolin]

Mrr. I still generally don't understand, especially Paladin smite vs Ranger favored enemy, as I'm used to the fact that favored enemy works on each swing giving the Ranger some serious oompf when it comes exclusively to his favored enemy, and I've always looked at Rangers as more useful than Fighters since fighters can't do anything outside of combat such as spot...

...but I suppose I don't know enough about the Fighter v Ranger debate to really contribute there. So I suppose I'll concede the point to avoid further derailing the topic. ^_^

Either way, if you go with a class that does not have dimensional anchor, consider either getting a custom item of dimensional anchor, or dipping wizard/sorceror for a level and wanding it up. Or possibly use magic device. Either way, gotta have da anchor.

[The_Snark]

Rangers have their advantages. They may not hold their own in a fight against a straight fighter, but they can do other things. They've got good skill points, they've got some spellcasting (and in supplements, they get some decent spells), and with well-chosen feats can be decent in combat too. Admittedly, some of the class features are crap—the combat styles kinda limit you, and the animal companion is near useless. But they get nice stealth abilities later on. Favored enemy... is a little screwy; I never liked classes that focused on fighting certain types of opponents.

I mean, they aren't supposed to be a straight combatant. They're a combat/skill monkey character. It's like comparing beguilers to wizards and only looking at their spell lists.

That said, I prefer scouts or fighter/rogues to accomplish the same general thing, but hey.

[greenknight]

Limitations: an alignment of chaotic neutral, chaotic good, or true neutral. available to humans.

I stayed with purely Core rules, but check out my Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2155416&postcount=182). Basically any Cleric with Dimensional Anchor, Holy Word and a Bead of Karma should be able to incapacitate a Demon of appropriate CR, and beyond that it's just a matter of doing enough damage to it.

If you want more than that, add spells or feats which reduce SR, and take Zen Archery (from Complete Warrior).

[Selgeron]

Uh, okay. A fighter can't have 2-3 high stats? Compared to the TWF ranger who needs the same stats, plus Wis, plus decent Int not to cripple the one thing rangers have going for them (skills) ...

What I meant is that he wouldnt have to RAISE dex any higher and could just keep it at whatever he started with, while a fighter would most likely need to raise his dex to take imp two weapon fighting and greater two weapon fighting, or take a severe blow to strength.

Yes characters can have a few high scores but i rarely play characters with two stats 17 or over, and the only core races that could get the 19 for greater both have minuses to strength making their damage subpar. I still hold to my claim that base ranger would make a better martial class in two weapon fighting than a fighter, but maybe I just have had a lot of bad luck with TWF Fighters.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Favoured Enemy bad? I wouldn't mind a +8 bonus on damage ever time I hit a demon. I don't care what you can do with power attack.

Foe Hunter is okay if you don't mind being absolutely generic.

Wizards make the best Demon Hunters due to being able to cast Planar Binding.