[3.5] What about the other Incarnum classes?

[Extra Anchovies]

So now that I'm finally getting around to trying to wrap my head around Incarnum, and as I've started reading through MoI, I've realized something:

Why do people (on this forum at least) only really talk about the Totemist, and not the Incarnate or Soulborn? Sure, I've seen the other two names mentioned in passing once or twice each, but in the week and a half that I've been here I've seen some bit of Totemist shenanigans or another pretty much every day.

Is it that there's a lot more to gain from dipping Totemist than dipping one of the other two, making Incarnate and Soulborn really only useful for Incarnum-heavy campaigns? Is Totemist just that much of a better class regardless of how far you progress in it? Or is it that Totemist has coolness oozing out of its ears pretty much from the get-go?

Now that I think about it, there are a lot of classes that get talked about a lot compared to others from the same supplement (e.g. Scout vs Ninja and Spellthief, Favored Soul vs Shugenja and Spirit Shaman). I guess it struck me with Totemist because all three MoI classes use the same supplemental rule system but Totemist is the only one I'd heard much of anything about before opening MoI.

[Fax Celestis]

Totemist gets talked about a lot because its focus is primarily melee, so people talk about it to try to steer people away from other terrible options.

Soulborn gets ignored because it sucks. It's soulknife- and monk-level suck.

Incarnate can be pretty terrifyingly powerful (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916), pushing it to the top of tier 3, but it has to be put in some pretty capable hands. In actual practice, Incarnate sits in the same vague grey area that the Factotum and Binder do: pretty good at practically everything.

[Beardbarian]

The fact is that Totemist gives you a good dip and A LOT of NA.

Incarnate is in the same position regarding power and versatility, but low bab and d6 are harder to handle.

And Soulborn is... Well... Like the Paladin of incarnum but without turn undead and ACFs

[dysprosium]

Nobody talks about Soulborn because they are terrible.

Incarnates do get mentioned here and there. Personally the only thing I don't like about them is that their BAB is poor. Their soulmelds are pretty good and they have plenty of essentia to fuel them all.

Totemist gets mentioned whenever someone needs to do lots of natural attacks. A two level dip is all that is needed to bind the unique totem chakra. Plus the flavor surrounding the Totemist mentions all of the classic monsters of D&D.

Of course these are just generalities. I'm sure someone can come in and give plenty of specific examples.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Incarnate is well regarded on the forum, it is simply that Totemist are usually more exciting than Incarnates since the former are natural blenders of fangs, claws, tentacles,etc while the latter are more suited to skill-monkeying and/or support roles. Not to say they can't be fearsome fighters, specially chaotic incarnates who can be surprisingly effective archers or evil incarnate whom get some pretty high damage values just with Incarnate weapon/avatar.

Soulborns on the other hand don't get much going for them since for a meldshaping class they get too few and too late incarnum. Though they get some of the best soulmelds (thunderstep boots, extra sonic damage and a stun on every charge? Don't mind if I do). There is also a pretty ridiculous build that involves their immunity to str penalties (might be chaotic or evil soulborns only though) and tibbits to make a kitty capable of wrestling ogres.

[dysprosium]

I've seen that build. It is CE soulborns that have the clause about ignoring penalties to Strength.

[Telonius]

Incarnates are nifty. My problem with them is that whenever I'm building one, about halfway through the build I start asking myself why I'm not playing another class that just dips a level or two for the best soulmelds. Unless I'm going all-in for Incarnum feats and essentia capacity, it just gets harder and harder to justify taking the next level instead of something else. Which is fine - Incarnum is intended to be very dippable. Diminishing returns just kicks in much more quickly for Incarnate than for Totemist.

[amalcon]

Totemist has the clearest purpose of the incarnum classes: totem binds for lots of natural attacks. If you want to make lots of attacks, Totemist is one of the best ways to get there.

Incarnate is a much more versatile class. In the end I think it ends up being slightly stronger for that reason, but this makes it much less obvious what to do with one. Plus, the alignment thing can make it tricky to fit onto a particular character: if you want to play a Chatoic-aligned melee fighter, Incarnate isn't going to work very well.

Soulborn is one of those classes where it's unclear what to do with it. Most times, wherever you would use Soulborn, it makes more sense (both for optimization and for flavor) to use some other class.

[icefractal]

The thing that seems true with Incarnum in general is that it doesn't scale all that much. For example, you can dish out some impressive damage from Dissolve Spittle at 1st level, but by mid-levels it's not very impressive. Therefore, the key to using Incarnum effectively is synergy.

With the Totemist, the synergy is obvious - it gives you lots of natural attacks and movement abilities. So combine it with stuff that's good for that kind of melee. Done. For Incarnate, I find that the combinations are a bit more non-intuitive.

Also, Totemist has a pretty cool theme. Embodying magical beasts? It's easy to riff on that. Incarnate has the base Incarnum flavor, which gets a more mixed reception.

And yes, Soulborn is just bad. Paladin problem but worse, and with none of the support material that makes Paladin usable.

[Psyren]

Incarnate is a much more versatile class. In the end I think it ends up being slightly stronger for that reason, but this makes it much less obvious what to do with one.

Well, it's more than slightly stronger (how many Totemists can Gate in a Solar) but I agree it's much trickier to use in practice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wait... Incarnates can Gate in stuff? Or do you mean using mage spectacles to pump UMD and use a scroll of gate:smallconfused:

[Zombulian]

Almost all the bonuses of the incarnum classes have been pointed out, and I'd like to reiterate the point that they are an incredibly good dip. I have a habit of dropping incarnum into tons of builds, Incarnate 4 has shown up in tons of my builds as of late, as Mauling Gauntlets and Cobalt Expertise are really helpful for any Str check maneuvers such as Bull Rushing, Tripping, and Net/Harpoons.

Also I've never seen that CE Soulborn thing before. That's freaking awesome.

[Red Fel]

Well, it's more than slightly stronger (how many Totemists can Gate in a Solar) but I agree it's much trickier to use in practice.

I find one of Incarnate's great strengths is its ability to synergize. At the end of the day, you take a Totemist dip to gain a slew of natural weapons (or Blink Shirt). That's about it. But an Incarnate dip can be used to augment virtually any concept.

Want to use Enchantment spells better? There's a soulmeld for that. Bonus to ranged attacks? Soulmeld. Disrupt undead? Sure, why not. Fly a little? Soulmeld. Psionics? There's a whole PrC for that bad boy. And while it's true that you could simply take Shape Soulmeld to grab the ones you want, and Open Chakra if you're willing to spend the feat, even a two-level dip is so useful it's insane.

Think about it. For a two-level dip into Incarnate, you can shape three soulmelds, bind one (Crown chakra), and you have two Essentia to invest. You can also Detect Opposition, which is fun when you're an NG Incarnate and lack a Paladin in the party. (Or when you're a CN Incarnate and have a deep-seated hatred for "The Man.")

If you're a melee character, you can bind the Crystal Helm to the crown chakra, and all of your melee attacks will gain the Force descriptor. If you're lonely, you can bind the Soulspark Familiar there, and gain a Lesser Soulspark. If you don't have Rogues in your party, you can bind the Diadem of Purelight and be a human torch. And if you're paranoid, bind the Enigma Helm for nondetection and immunity to enchantment.

And you still have two slots to shape. Want some Lucky Dice? How about Airstep Sandals? Strongheart Vest? You've got your pick, and they work well with anything.

That's the real appeal of Incarnate, for me. It adds huge versatility to virtually any character concept. Substantially moreso, I'd say, than Totemist.

And yes. Planar Chasuble, if bound to the Soul chakra (requires Incarnate 19 or an epic feat) grants you 1/week Gate.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The thing that seems true with Incarnum in general is that it doesn't scale all that much. For example, you can dish out some impressive damage from Dissolve Spittle at 1st level, but by mid-levels it's not very impressive. Therefore, the key to using Incarnum effectively is synergy.

With the Totemist, the synergy is obvious - it gives you lots of natural attacks and movement abilities. So combine it with stuff that's good for that kind of melee. Done. For Incarnate, I find that the combinations are a bit more non-intuitive.
Pretty much this, I think. Incarnate can theoretically, do anything, it takes a fair amount of system mastery to make it do anything well. It's less newbie-friendly, less workable-out-of-the-box.

[Psyren]

Wait... Incarnates can Gate in stuff? Or do you mean using mage spectacles to pump UMD and use a scroll of gate:smallconfused:

Planar Chasuble + Soul Chakra, which only Incarnates get pre-epic.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I definitely need to read the Incarnate soulmelds in more detal, I completely missed that.

[Chronos]

Totemists are the best there is at natural-weapon combat, at least as a dip. When you're the best at something, you're going to be mentioned a lot, whenever that something comes up. They're also handy at a few other things, but those don't get mentioned nearly as often.

Incarnates are competent at a wide variety of tasks, but there's nothing they're the best at (they're not even the best at meldshaping-- A Chameleon is better at that, despite never even actually mentioning incarnum at all). They do have the advantage that, what they're good at, they're good at in a very different way than most classes, which makes it often advantageous to dip a level... but it's very hard to justify more than a dip.

[torrasque666]

IPsionics? There's a whole PrC for that bad boy.

I... I'm sorry. I don't see any PrC's in Magic of Incarnum that advance manifester level. Which one were you talking about?

[Zombulian]

Totemists are the best there is at natural-weapon combat, at least as a dip. When you're the best at something, you're going to be mentioned a lot, whenever that something comes up. They're also handy at a few other things, but those don't get mentioned nearly as often.

Incarnates are competent at a wide variety of tasks, but there's nothing they're the best at (they're not even the best at meldshaping-- A Chameleon is better at that, despite never even actually mentioning incarnum at all). They do have the advantage that, what they're good at, they're good at in a very different way than most classes, which makes it often advantageous to dip a level... but it's very hard to justify more than a dip.

I'm genuinely confused about the Chameleon comment. I get you can get extra binds and maybe soulmelds with their casting, but how are they better?

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Psionic/Incarnum theruge was in a Mind's eye article, I think the one that had the Astral Vambraces soulmelds.

The reason some people argue that Chamelon is better than incarnates and the like at Incarnum is that the Shape soulmeld feat doesn't specify what happens if you loose the feat for any reason, and therefore if a Chameleon shapes something with his floating feat and the next day you select another feat the soulmeld remains shaped, giving you pretty much all the soulmelds you want given a week or two of downtime.

[Glimbur]

I... I'm sorry. I don't see any PrC's in Magic of Incarnum that advance manifester level. Which one were you talking about?

There's a web expansion PrC that combines incarnum and psionics. Soul Manifester (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a).

Link also includes some psionic soulmelds, as has been mentioned the Astral Vambraces are pretty good because they have many options.

[Zombulian]

The Psionic/Incarnum theruge was in a Mind's eye article, I think the one that had the Astral Vambraces soulmelds.

The reason some people argue that Chamelon is better than incarnates and the like at Incarnum is that the Shape soulmeld feat doesn't specify what happens if you loose the feat for any reason, and therefore if a Chameleon shapes something with his floating feat and the next day you select another feat the soulmeld remains shaped, giving you pretty much all the soulmelds you want given a week or two of downtime.

Ehhhh that's a little bit of a stretch I'd say. It still doesn't make them better except in the sense that they have casting and all that. An Incarnate starts off with knowledge of their entire list by default anyway. Although I suppose having all access to Totemist and Soulborn melds could be pretty cool too.

[Chronos]

An incarnate starts off with access to all of them, but can still only have two shaped at a time. A chameleon can have ten shaped at once. That's a huge difference.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ehhhh that's a little bit of a stretch I'd say. It still doesn't make them better except in the sense that they have casting and all that. An Incarnate starts off with knowledge of their entire list by default anyway. Although I suppose having all access to Totemist and Soulborn melds could be pretty cool too.

I agree with you, it is just the way some people read the feat.

[Talionis]

Incarnates are great. Medium BAB would've been better. A lot of what Incarnates do is skill basses and they have flexibility so it would've been nice for them to have more skills per level so that they could better work in multiple roles. Even in mostly Incarnates, I often look for a high skill class and waste a feat on Able Learner.

Mostly being as flexible as they are they become rudderless and unable to easily be optimized. If you optimize you mostly will focus on a single Soulmeld and then only need enough essentia to power it. Thus the ever talked about dips into incarnate.

I like playing Incarnates, but find that I end up using Incarnate into Sapphire Heirarch or Soulcaster because of the lack of support in prestige classes.

[Troacctid]

An incarnate starts off with access to all of them, but can still only have two shaped at a time. A chameleon can have ten shaped at once. That's a huge difference.

Incarnates gain more soulmeld slots as they level up (by the time a Chameleon gets his bonus feat, the Incarnate has 5 soulmelds). They also unlock all their chakras, whereas the Chameleon can't naturally unlock any chakras until ECL 10, and even then they only ever get the least chakras (because they can't spend their bonus feat on Shape Soulmeld and Open Lesser Chakra at the same time, and they don't get 7th level spells to unlock lesser chakras with magic). They also get a large essentia pool where the Chameleon can, at best, get 2 points from a feat. And in order to shape 10 soulmelds simultaneously, the Chameleon still needs a Con score of 20, which is a non-trivial limitation.

[MeeposFire]

Incarnates do not get mentoined much because people do not know what to do with them at fist (or even a second or third) glance. They have low BAB and skills so they should be a magic heavy class like a wizard. Except they are not. They don't look like a warrior or a skill money so what do they do?

If you don't take a long look at what they can do then you just give up and decide to play something a bit more obvious. Personally I think it would help the perception if they had medium BAB since then people at least would not think of spellcaster when looking at him.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you don't take a long look at what they can do then you just give up and decide to play something a bit more obvious. Personally I think it would help the perception if they had medium BAB since then people at least would not think of spellcaster when looking at him.

Definitely agreed with you there. My first reaction when looking at the classes was "okay, so incarnate's the one that does melds and a little bit of other stuff, soulborn does fighting and a bit of melds, and totemist has the weird monster bits going on", but that does not really seem to be the case at all!

[Ssalarn]

Definitely agreed with you there. My first reaction when looking at the classes was "okay, so incarnate's the one that does melds and a little bit of other stuff, soulborn does fighting and a bit of melds, and totemist has the weird monster bits going on", but that does not really seem to be the case at all!

Incarnate is really good but requires a high degree of system mastery. You really want to be moving essentia every round, especially at low levels, so unless you can step back and look at it dynamically it just seems odd. It's the best multiclass option of the three.
Totemist is the one that's easiest to run and play, and he does the cool things that stand out like growing limbs and claws and breath weapons. His actual facility is lower than the Incarnate but he often gets rated higher since he requires a lower degree of system mastery.
The Soulborn, as others have mentioned, is terrible. It suffers from the "full BAB can't have nice things" syndrome you see a lot and doesn't get anything worthwhile at a level that matters.