3.5 to 5e Planescape evolution, so what exactly did they change?

[Brookshw]

Heya Gang,

So I'm wondering if someone who's played some 4e and is getting into 5e would be kind enough to clue me in as to what they've done to the Planescape settings integration. From what I understand 4e seems to have sundered the great wheel, the Astral did,....something. Bad times happened in the Abyss. The whole thing sounds completely alien. Now 5e's coming along which promised Planescape again (and Spelljammer I hear) and I'm thrilled, but based on what I've heard about 4e I'm skeptical of how true it will stay to previous canon/fluff.

Did they keep it the same to 2e/3/3.5? Close? Does it come closer to 4e? What are your thoughts as to the fate of the planes in 5e.

[Naanomi]

Heya Gang,

So I'm wondering if someone who's played some 4e and is getting into 5e would be kind enough to clue me in as to what they've done to the Planescape settings integration. From what I understand 4e seems to have sundered the great wheel, the Astral did,....something. Bad times happened in the Abyss. The whole thing sounds completely alien. Now 5e's coming along which promised Planescape again (and Spelljammer I hear) and I'm thrilled, but based on what I've heard about 4e I'm skeptical of how true it will stay to previous canon/fluff.

Did they keep it the same to 2e/3/3.5? Close? Does it come closer to 4e? What are your thoughts as to the fate of the planes in 5e.
They added the Feywild into the setting, and changed the Plane of Shadow into the Shadowfell.

The elemental planes are quite a bit different. There is no Para or Quasi elemental planes in sight; and 4e's 'elemental chaos' makes an appearance as the 'deep' places where the four elements blend together.

Also the Positive and Negative Energy planes seem to be their own things, rather than a 'part' of the inner planes. From the planes chart it also looks like they are specifically linking positive energy to 'good' and negative energy to 'evil' in a formal way, rather than the informal association of the past.

Little mention of the extended prime-material plane and the Crystal Spheres/Phlogiston of Spelljammer yet that I can see.

[Brookshw]

They added the Feywild into the setting, and changed the Plane of Shadow into the Shadowfell.

The elemental planes are quite a bit different. There is no Para or Quasi elemental planes in sight; and 4e's 'elemental chaos' makes an appearance as the 'deep' places where the four elements blend together.

Also the Positive and Negative Energy planes seem to be their own things, rather than a 'part' of the inner planes. From the planes chart it also looks like they are specifically linking positive energy to 'good' and negative energy to 'evil' in a formal way, rather than the informal association of the past.

Little mention of the extended prime-material plane and the Crystal Spheres/Phlogiston of Spelljammer yet that I can see.

Thanks so much for the run down. I'm hoping there's more info out there, but perhaps it hasn't come out yet? Is there any explanation/fluff/canon for the change to the "new" cosmology if that's the right word. Retcon?

[Naanomi]

No reason in the PHB; I would guess that it is a retcon/attempt to reconcile 4e and previous edition stuff to some degree.

[EccentricCircle]

As I see it there's no need for a canonical explanation for the change, because you can make a strong case that nothing has particularly changed, it's just that we're looking at it in a different way this edition.
4th editions cosmology looks very different at face value, but most of the same elements are there (with the exception of the ethereal I think). They are just arranged differently, but that arrangement isn't a physical constant that's an inherent part of the, because the planes of existence aren't a physical thing. The way we think about them being arranged is just our way as mortals to put some kind of system around the planes by way of understanding them.

I reckon that the Great Wheel makes a lot of sense from a planewalker point of view. You want to know how the different planes are related to one another, how they are aligned and so on. Someone in Sigil needs to know all of that.

the 4e world axis system is much more prime material orientated. It doesn't care how different outer planes relate to one another so much as how you get to them from the prime and how you travel between them, via the astral sea or the elemental chaos for example. There's a focus on the Parallel planes since those are the ones that touch the prime.

The inner planes have been reorganized, but since they don't exist in space to start with this is just a different model of the planes. The Quasi and Para elemental planes are places where elements mix at the borders between the pure regions, The elemental Chaos fills a similar niche, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. You could consider a spectrum with the Pure planes at one end and the Chaos at the other, becoming increasingly mixed as it goes.
If you are a scholar on Mechanus trying to workout how the universe ticks then an all encompassing model is essential! if you are a hapless prime adventurer stumbling through the elemental chaos then knowing whether you're in a para plane or not doesn't help.

[Mandrake]

(with the exception of the ethereal I think)

Actually, both Ethereal and Astral planes do exist, called Transitive planes (PHB:301).

[Millennium]

The situation is a little more complex than evolution, because entire campaign settings have also been shifted around.

The earliest editions of FR used the same "Great Wheel" cosmology as Planescape and Greyhawk. But as early as 3.0, it discarded this cosmology for a "World Tree" model, even though Greyhawk (the default campaign setting for 3e) continued to use the Great Wheel. 4e more-or-less discarded Greyhawk in favor of its "Points of Light" default campaign setting, which used a completely different cosmological model called the World Axis, and the Realms cosmology was rewritten to use this as well.

5e has made FR the default campaign setting, but there have also been rumors that Planescape is coming back. Some of the Planescape-style planes have already been mentioned in the Basic Rules: the Elemental Planes are coming back, and planes like Mechanus and Arborea have also been mentioned. So it's probably safe to assume that 5e has gone back to the Great Wheel, or something very like it. But some 4e influences remain: in particular, the Feywild and Shadowfell (which was essentially the Plane of Shadow anyway) are still around. Exactly how they'll fit in hasn't really been mapped out yet.

[Naanomi]

The biggest change from traditional Planescape cosmology that I see is the re-association of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes away from the Inner Planes and instead 'overlaying' the Outerplanes; thus providing implicit alignment to the previously 'neutral but not really' Energy forces; and completely removing even vestigial 'Quasi-Elemental planes' and their inhabitants.

[EccentricCircle]

Actually, both Ethereal and Astral planes do exist, called Transitive planes (PHB:301).

sorry, I meant it was absent from 4e and brought back in 5e. it's described in the sidebar on the great wheel in the 4th edition Manual of the planes, but is otherwise absent from the cosmology. 5e does indeed seem to be going back to the pre 4th model in that respect.

[AuraTwilight]

The biggest change from traditional Planescape cosmology that I see is the re-association of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes away from the Inner Planes and instead 'overlaying' the Outerplanes; thus providing implicit alignment to the previously 'neutral but not really' Energy forces; and completely removing even vestigial 'Quasi-Elemental planes' and their inhabitants.

This is, incidentally, my main annoyance with the 5E Cosmology. Positive and Negative energy should've never had moral significance in the first place; the latter is just entropy, and it's absence is unmitigated, explosive cancer.

[da_chicken]

This is, incidentally, my main annoyance with the 5E Cosmology. Positive and Negative energy should've never had moral significance in the first place; the latter is just entropy, and it's absence is unmitigated, explosive cancer.

Except negative energy creates unlife. Nearly everything closely associated with the negative energy plane throughout the entirety of the history of D&D has been thoroughly evil, and the plane is known to be a location used to imprison powerful good-aligned creatures and artifacts. I think Xeg-Yi are the only non-evil creature related to the entire plane.

[pwykersotz]

Except negative energy creates unlife. Nearly everything closely associated with the negative energy plane throughout the entirety of the history of D&D has been thoroughly evil, and the plane is known to be a location used to imprison powerful good-aligned creatures and artifacts. I think Xeg-Yi are the only non-evil creature related to the entire plane.

Yeah, but that's more with people distorting the natural balance than anything else. Taking a piece of entropy and twisting it into a mockery of life and shoving it into human remains to exist in a state of neither life nor death is more the evil...the negative energy itself is just dangerous...like fire.

Edit: Campaign Idea - Evil Positive Energy cultists are causing all sorts of trouble, the good Priests of Negative Energy are needed to put things right.

[AuraTwilight]

Except negative energy creates unlife. Nearly everything closely associated with the negative energy plane throughout the entirety of the history of D&D has been thoroughly evil, and the plane is known to be a location used to imprison powerful good-aligned creatures and artifacts. I think Xeg-Yi are the only non-evil creature related to the entire plane.

Making and using nuclear bombs, which then causes irradiated nuclear kaiju monsters mankind has to defend itself against, does not mean that nuclear energy is inherently evil.

[Brookshw]

So, yay, planewalker is back up and having it's own fun little discussion (http://www.planewalker.com/content/5e-cosmology)of Planescape and the new cosmology. Still shifting through it all, but what the bleep happened to the Outlands? A good change? A bad change? Curious if it's going to actually make the cut but from what I gather it doesn't seem to have.

So place your bets!

[Yuki Akuma]

So, yay, planewalker is back up and having it's own fun little discussion (http://www.planewalker.com/content/5e-cosmology)of Planescape and the new cosmology. Still shifting through it all, but what the bleep happened to the Outlands? A good change? A bad change? Curious if it's going to actually make the cut but from what I gather it doesn't seem to have.

So place your bets!

I, uh...

It's... right there. On page 302. "Sigil and the Outlands".

[Brookshw]

I, uh...

It's... right there. On page 302. "Sigil and the Outlands".

Yeah, don't have the book. Seems the outlands were retained, but now where is it :smallconfused:

[Naanomi]

Yeah, don't have the book. Seems the outlands were retained, but now where is it :smallconfused:
Where it always was (with some reference of the Hinterlands); the map just wanted to show the Prime as the 'middle' of the Cosmos so made some concessions with the map of the Outer Planes.

[...]

I'm just scared that lawful and chaotic outsiders won't return. If we can't have Formians, what CAN we have!?

[Naanomi]

I'm just scared that lawful and chaotic outsiders won't return. If we can't have Formians, what CAN we have!?
Modrons are mentioned in the Wild Surge table I think so... Modrons?