Questions to you GM's

[andysowhat]

I had my 3rd session in a campaign now. and the GM have thrown a "diplomancer" on me 3 times. for no apparent reason. well the reason was you have too much money or something along those lines. (when the truth is that I haven't spent nearly a dime since my starting gold... had 110gold for 3 sessions.)

what his npc do is basically: If I lost my horse last battle 2 minutes ago. now GM's npc randomly find my lost horse and try to sell that same horse to my character. even I perception check it for being my horse. but he just spams several diplomacy checks on me. denies me to attack the npc, and makes me loan my own horse for 20gold. even I can summon my own mount, and I play my character as it: doesn't care about non magical items. like I don't care about buying a horse. I even make it clear to the GM that I don't want to buy my own horse back. I don't even care about the horse at all because its not magical. I even tried to attack the guy who tried to sell me my horse. and GM just nope.avi even my ingame character knew he was getting scammed....

wtf -.-

do you have some tips on how to respond?!? I'm so leaving this campaign....

[Phelix-Mu]

Point your DM at your favorite text-based adventure game and explain how playing it is now superior to the game s/he is running. If your character has mechanically-reinforced blinders on for simple stuff at low levels, perhaps it is just for the small stuff, until the plot really gets rolling.

But the omens are bad. I'd have an honest talk with the DM about wanting to be able to do as you wish with your character.

Alternatively, have your character stuff wax in their ears or otherwise become incapable of conversing with the diplomancers. If you could find a way to not speak common, that might also solve a couple problems (which the DM could sidestep with even greater ease, ofc...so an out-of-character talk is probably the way to go).

[jaydubs]

Diplomacy should not be used in that way against player characters. It even says in the description it's meant to be used to change the attitude of NPCs.

"You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check."

Besides that, DMs should not be trying to dictate player character's choices outside of things like dominate spells.

If you're otherwise enjoying the campaign, I'd suggest talking to the DM about it. Point at that 1) you're not enjoying it, and 2) it's not supported by the rules. Instead of being critical, just explain that you find it frustrating to have control of your character taken away. If he/she refuses to cease, leave the campaign.

[Strigon]

One thing a GM should never do is say "you can't do that", unless you are physically incapable of actually doing it (I.E., I turn this dirt into a +1 longsword!). That's completely opposed to the very nature of any RPG.
So, right off the bat, he's in the wrong.
Next, if he allowed you to get too much money (even though you were saving it, so it's not a big deal), that's his issue. He needs to find a way to take you down a notch fairly, if that's an issue. Or he could talk to you OOC and explain the issue. If he's handling it this way, he's an awful GM and you really should find another.

TL;DR, He's a crappy GM and you've done nothing wrong. Find someone who's fair.

[Zanos]

Your DM sounds terrible. As jaydubs mentioned, by RAW diplomacy doesn't actually do anything to player controlled characters, which you could bring up.

I recommend having a chat with your DM out of character about how you feel his behavior is unreasonable. This doesn't sound like the behavior of a particularly mature or experienced DM, however. I hope there's another group near you because I feel you'll probably have to leave this campaign.

[draken50]

Bad GM, If you're a big enough person to explain why rationally and calmly, never hurts to let people know. It might help him out down the line.

If not, and no judgement, honestly. Time to move on.

[Extra Anchovies]

ETA: Ninja'd four times, but maybe I contributed something new :smalltongue:

I had my 3rd session in a campaign now. and the GM have thrown a "diplomancer" on me 3 times. for no apparent reason. well the reason was you have too much money or something along those lines. (when the truth is that I haven't spent nearly a dime since my starting gold... had 110gold for 3 sessions.)

what his npc do is basically: If I lost my horse last battle 2 minutes ago. now GM's npc randomly find my lost horse and try to sell that same horse to my character. even I perception check it for being my horse. but he just spams several diplomacy checks on me. denies me to attack the npc, and makes me loan my own horse for 20gold. even I can summon my own mount, and I play my character as it: doesn't care about non magical items. like I don't care about buying a horse. I even make it clear to the GM that I don't want to buy my own horse back. I don't even care about the horse at all because its not magical. I even tried to attack the guy who tried to sell me my horse. and GM just nope.avi even my ingame character knew he was getting scammed....

wtf -.-

do you have some tips on how to respond?!? I'm so leaving this campaign....

Just hearing about what your GM is doing is making me mad.

1. Even if a successful Diplomacy check changes a character's attitude to Helpful, it doesn't mean they will accept any deal regardless of its fairness. If my best friend found something of mine that I had lost, pretended that they didn't know it used to be mine, and tried to sell it to me? I'd first ask them if they were joking, then take the item back by force.


DIPLOMACY (Cha)
...
Check: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful diplomacy check.
...
Sidebar: Influencing NPC Attitudes
Use the table below to determine the effectiveness of Diplomacy checks (or Charisma checks) made to influence the attitude of a nonplayer character...
Nonplayer characters. There are no references in the PHB or in any other 3e book I have read that at all mention using the Diplomacy skill on characters. The Diplomacy skill, and the attached rules for NPC attitudes, exist because there is no human player to represent those NPCs. Whether your character likes or dislikes another character (whether PC or NPC) and/or whether they will accept deals from that character is ENTIRELY up to you; the DM cannot, repeat cannot force your character to do anything that you do not want your character to do, excepting mind-control magic and fear effects. Let your DM know that Diplomacy is ONLY applicable when a player character is attempting to influence a nonplayer character, or when a nonplayer character tries to influence another nonplayer character.

If they continue to try to force conditions on you, walk away from the campaign and never look back. The worst sort of DM is the sort that sees the player characters as just another part of their game world that they get to control, and that's the sort of DM you seem to be stuck with.

[andysowhat]

blah. good im not the only one thinking this is incredibly stupid. I could agree on the GM's trying to diplo me if it was something my character really wanted. like maybe a monocle that see magical things xD I gladly pay overpriced maybe even tripple the normal price, only cuz my character is obsessed with magical items. but ****... not a horse that is mine... and topping it all... I can summon a mount myself

[Fax Celestis]

While you're at it, point him at the Wealth By Level table in the DMG on pg. 135.

[andysowhat]

So I just basically gave the GM rules of how to use diplomacy and spellcraft. and I said I'm not very fond of how he took controll over my character ingame.

he replied.

do I discriminate your character?
you cant use spellcraft to help you cast spells. final.
and your character really wanted to buy your own horse, I manage to use diplomancy on your character and your character really wanted to loan your own horse because I threw a natural 20. just think about the other time when I made "another player" buy erotical dolls for 60gold which was worth 1 gold.


and then I declared I'm out of the campaign. you think this is right of me?

[Extra Anchovies]

So I just basically gave the GM rules of how to use diplomacy and spellcraft. and I said I'm not very fond of how he took controll over my character ingame.

he replied.

do I discriminate your character?
you cant use spellcraft to help you cast spells. final.
and your character really wanted to buy your own horse, I manage to use diplomancy on your character and your character really wanted to loan your own horse because I threw a natural 20. just think about the other time when I made "another player" buy erotical dolls for 60gold which was worth 1 gold.


and then I declared I'm out of the campaign. you think this is right of me?

Again, the DM can never, never tell you what your character wants to do (assuming that your character is not being magically controlled). That's what makes it your character, and not just one of his NPCs. Your DM sounds like a frighteningly bad DM from your descriptions; find a different group and you will almost certainly see what you've been missing out on.
ETA: What you've been missing out on by not having a DM that actually lets you play the game, I mean.

[oxybe]

No game is better then a bad game, IMO. I've left games for similar offenses, as well as lesser ones or simply a clashing of styles (IE: the game was going in a direction or focusing on things I personally didn't care for. It wasn't bad, just not my cup of tea.).

There's no shame or problem with wanting to stop playing a game you're not having fun with. If anything, I'd wonder why one would willingly continue doing an activity they dislike.

[Jermz]

Good job on getting out of a bad situation fast. The GM is childish, and obviously is on some kind of weird and irrational power tilt. He clearly doesn't know, or willfully ignores the rules, is intent on railroading the entire campaign, and doesn't give a whit about player agency or fun.

Looks like you're playing online? If so, maybe see if you can join one of the PbPs here on the Playground. I've scanned that forum now and again and it does seem like there are both serious GMs and players out there.

[Knaight]

One thing a GM should never do is say "you can't do that", unless you are physically incapable of actually doing it (I.E., I turn this dirt into a +1 longsword!). That's completely opposed to the very nature of any RPG.
It's hardly opposed to the very nature of any RPG. The GM or even players restricting allowed actions some can be entirely fine - if everyone agrees to have a heroic game, the PCs shouldn't be murdering children. Then you have cases where there are really, really terrible players who want to have their PC try to rape another one or similar, and shutting that down and denying it entirely is reasonable GMing.


blah. good im not the only one thinking this is incredibly stupid. I could agree on the GM's trying to diplo me if it was something my character really wanted. like maybe a monocle that see magical things xD I gladly pay overpriced maybe even tripple the normal price, only cuz my character is obsessed with magical items. but ****... not a horse that is mine... and topping it all... I can summon a mount myself
D&D specifically generally doesn't have diplomacy work on the players. Some games have social skills that do, and house ruling D&D in the vein of those games with house rules you are alerted to would have been reasonable.

Of course, that's not what happened here at all. The specific case is more a matter of the DM finding a lazy, stupid way to railroad because they feel they gave out too much wealth and apparently couldn't find a better way to handle it.


Again, the DM can never, never tell you what your character wants to do (assuming that your character is not being magically controlled). That's what makes it your character, and not just one of his NPCs.
The restrictions highlighted above remain relevant, though barring certain actions and explicitly saying what characters do are different cases. In any case, the character can remain yours even if they can be influenced in non-magical ways that mechanically involve some level of GM control, though that would be a house rule.

The specific situation in the thread remains an example of horrible GMing.

[prufock]

So I just basically gave the GM rules of how to use diplomacy
Since you haven't mentioned Spellcraft up to this point I'll assume it's a different issue.


do I discriminate your character?
you cant use spellcraft to help you cast spells. final.
and your character really wanted to buy your own horse, I manage to use diplomancy on your character and your character really wanted to loan your own horse because I threw a natural 20. just think about the other time when I made "another player" buy erotical dolls for 60gold which was worth 1 gold.
Your GM's argument is basically that because he used the rules incorrectly for other characters, you shouldn't complain when he does so for you.

:confused:

Diplomacy is meant for NPCs. PERIOD. It's right there in the PHB for him to read if he doesn't agree.

Taking away player agency for no good reason is poor GMing. PERIOD.

Your GM is being illogical and it doesn't seem like there's any real rationale behind it other than messing with his players.


and then I declared I'm out of the campaign. you think this is right of me?
If you aren't having fun, and the GM is unwilling to change, leaving is the most rational course of action. No gaming > bad gaming.

[Yahzi]

and then I declared I'm out of the campaign. you think this is right of me?
Your DM completely blew it. If some NPC used diplomacy on you to convince you to pay for your own horse, it doesn't go like this:


"The NPC rolls a 20, so you agree to buy your own horse."

What it looks like (in the hands of a competent DM) is this:


"While you are bemoaning the loss of your horse, a stranger takes pity on you and agrees to sell you his horse for a very low fee of 20 gp. It's the same breed and color as your old horse, but it looks healthier and stronger, with a fine glistening coat and well-braided mane."

So yes, you are right to run away, but not because your DM used Diplomacy on you; rather, because your DM does not understand how to run a game. Further proof is his bragging about ripping off another player. If an NPC cons you out of 59 gp, the only way you know that is if an NPC tells you in the game. The DM telling you is just the DM bragging out-of-game. Who wants to play any game with a guy like that?

[andysowhat]

Since you haven't mentioned Spellcraft up to this point I'll assume it's a different issue.

When I threw a spell I had a 50% chance of succsess. like 10 or lower was automatically a spell fail. and 11 and above was automatically a sucsess. even I was a sorcerer with high spellcraft willsave som attackbonuses etc etc etc. I could never get over 50% chance of sucsessfully with whatever specs I had. cuz he said it was 50/50 final

he even desided my magic missiles had a will save against them. and instead of getting the 10 + 1 for spell level + 4 charisma modifier = 15+ will save

he gets to throw 10 or more for willsaves. final. so basically I had 25% chance to damage a creature with a magic missile.

and now I'm really confused how its really working -.-"

[Fax Celestis]

Answer me a question: how old is your DM?

[andysowhat]

Answer me a question: how old is your DM?

his age is 22years

[Fax Celestis]

Could've fooled me. Your DM is acting like a grade schooler.

Look, whatever you were playing, it may have used the PHB and DMG, but it wasn't D&D.

[Spore]

Holy Handgrenade. This behaviour in games feels like when I played Cowboy and Indians back in elementary school: "You're dead." "Am not." transfers flawlessly to "You buy your own horse back." "No, I don't."

He is the kind of guy I wouldn't want to play Monopoly or even cards with. His game isn't about roleplaying. It's about winning. Ask him if he is done winning D&D if you may revert back to a normal game. Or better yet, ask your fellow players how they feel. No game is better than a terrible one that is sure. But you may still want to play with the other guys.

[bjoern]

Holy Handgrenade. This behaviour in games feels like when I played Cowboy and Indians back in elementary school: "You're dead." "Am not." transfers flawlessly to "You buy your own horse back." "No, I don't."

He is the kind of guy I wouldn't want to play Monopoly or even cards with. His game isn't about roleplaying. It's about winning. Ask him if he is done winning D&D if you may revert back to a normal game. Or better yet, ask your fellow players how they feel. No game is better than a terrible one that is sure. But you may still want to play with the other guys.

If he won't let you attack the NPC, just call him a ***** and kill the horse. Make him come up with a new scheme.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Just move on, perhaps to one of the PbP games on this very forum.

[Brookshw]

So I just basically gave the GM rules of how to use diplomacy and spellcraft. and I said I'm not very fond of how he took controll over my character ingame.

he replied.

do I discriminate your character?
you cant use spellcraft to help you cast spells. final.
and your character really wanted to buy your own horse, I manage to use diplomancy on your character and your character really wanted to loan your own horse because I threw a natural 20. just think about the other time when I made "another player" buy erotical dolls for 60gold which was worth 1 gold.


and then I declared I'm out of the campaign. you think this is right of me?

That dm, at best, is making up some very odd house rules that don't seem to contribute anything to the fun of the game. If you aren't having fun deciding to spend you're time elsewhere is perfectly acceptable.

I assume there was more to the exchange but doesn't seem like it would have mattered.

I also assume the dm provided the loot that became "too much", such things can happen but in general its better to discuss it ooc and be honest rather than jeopardize the game with heavy handed measures players dislike.

[andysowhat]

oh, yeah please. any sort of tutorial or similar where I can just join in for a dnd session? on the internet or etc

[StoneCipher]

Aside from all of your diplo shenanigans, the DM thought that 110 gold was TOO MUCH?

I mean, seriously. Even if a level 1 had 1000 gold, there's not too much they can do with it to be game breaking.

[Jornophelanthas]

When I threw a spell I had a 50% chance of succsess. like 10 or lower was automatically a spell fail. and 11 and above was automatically a sucsess. even I was a sorcerer with high spellcraft willsave som attackbonuses etc etc etc. I could never get over 50% chance of sucsessfully with whatever specs I had. cuz he said it was 50/50 final

he even desided my magic missiles had a will save against them. and instead of getting the 10 + 1 for spell level + 4 charisma modifier = 15+ will save

he gets to throw 10 or more for willsaves. final. so basically I had 25% chance to damage a creature with a magic missile.

and now I'm really confused how its really working -.-"

This is NOT how it works.

Spell failure is only an issue for sorcerers (or wizards) if they are wearing armor while casting. And even then, it is a (small-ish) percentage chance of failure. The best way to avoid this is to not wear armor, so you have 0% spell failure chance.

Spellcraft has nothing to do with it. Spellcraft is mainly used to identify the spells that are being cast by NPCs and enemies.

Every individual spell has different rules for saving throws. Magic Missile allows no saving throw. It always hits (as long as you can see the target, and it is within range of the spell).

If the spell does allow a saving throw, the spell description will state if it is a Fortitude, Reflex or Will save, and the target needs to make the saving throw. You should never roll a saving throw against your own spells. (Unless you do something stupid like casting a Fireball centered on yourself.)

---

This DM was not playing a roleplaying game, he was just running an excuse to bully you (and the other players). You made the right decision to leave.

[Oko and Qailee]

It doesn't matter HOW the DM is screwing you. Yes, diplomacy can't be used on PC's, but a DM like this would just swap the story and say "well instead they cast dominate person on you."

The point is that the DM is screwing you at all. You're right to quit IMO, this DM sounds terrible in my opinion.

[andysowhat]

so I do not need to throw 1d20 to make a check if I can use magic missile?

**** im so screwed in the head xD

does anyone wanna play a solo campaign with me? giving me hints and tips?

[StoneCipher]

Nope. Not unless you need to make a caster level check for SR.

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.

Spell Resistance applies, but at that level you're not likely to find anybody that has it.

[Extra Anchovies]

oh, yeah please. any sort of tutorial or similar where I can just join in for a dnd session? on the internet or etc

Are you just looking for a play-by-post game to join? There's a section of this forum dedicated to that, so it's a good place to start. If you mean that you want to find a way to learn how D&D actually works, you could maybe try to find a game in the play-by-post subforum that seems interesting and let the DM for that game know that you're pretty much new to the system, and they'll probably work with you from there.

[andysowhat]

Are you just looking for a play-by-post game to join? There's a section of this forum dedicated to that, so it's a good place to start. If you mean that you want to find a way to learn how D&D actually works, you could maybe try to find a game in the play-by-post subforum that seems interesting and let the DM for that game know that you're pretty much new to the system, and they'll probably work with you from there.

sure I'll try that :)

[Dorian Gray]

so I do not need to throw 1d20 to make a check if I can use magic missile?

**** im so screwed in the head xD

does anyone wanna play a solo campaign with me? giving me hints and tips?

Nope! Any caster can cast any spell he has prepared (or known, in the case of a sorcerer) with a 100% success rate (unless you wear armor, but...). Now, for certain spells, the enemy gets a save- but a large part of what makes Magic Missile good is that it doesn't allow for saves and doesn't need an attack roll. It looks like your DM was in that magic place between being completely ignorant about the game and being a massive arse.

If you look on the section of these forums called "Finding Players (Recruitment)", you'll find some online games. Also, you can look for players at your friendly local game store- Pathfinder Society is really cool.