What class(es) should my villain be?

[Strigon]

So, our group has done some adventures, gotten acquainted, and cleared out a dungeon or two. They've gotten wind of the villain's schemes, and are just about to meet him.
I have the kind of villain I want him to be, but I can't quite decide what to make him, class-wise.
He is a ~12-14 level human raised by a king as his son, so he is skilled in anything a prince would be taught (diplomacy, bluffing, swordplay), as well as being in fairly good condition. He's not in incredible condition, still having had a fairly cushy life, but he's still tougher than most people.
But, he isn't the king's son. He was given life by an evil cult to replace the king, and as such has had their teachings as well (intimidate, as well a some minor magical abilities; I'm thinking sorcerer-esque, but that's not set in stone).

So, what does he sound like to you? An evil paladin? A fighter/sorcerer combination? Something else?
I'm all ears, and would appreciate any and all feedback!

[Zanos]

Diplomacy, Bluffing, Minor Swordfighting and Minor Magical abilities sounds like Bard to me.

[Jeff the Green]

Clearly he's a Fighter/Sorcerer/Rogue.

What to you imagine his mental stat layout being? I could see Bard (maybe divine), but also Factotum or Binder.

[Strigon]

What to you imagine his mental stat layout being? I could see Bard (maybe divine), but also Factotum or Binder.

I'm picturing 14-16 str/dex/cha, 12-14 everything else.

The issue with being a bard (I haven't had much experience with them, so I could be completely wrong here) is that he's been trained to be able to survive on the front lines of combat, if necessary.
I could absolutely see a few levels of bard, but I don't know about a straight up bard, even if he is divine.

[AMFV]

Aristocrat. He uses money to fight the players. Pays wizards, buys armies. There's nothing that his silver tongue and his bankroll can't solve.

[Extra Anchovies]

Aristocrat. He uses money to fight the players. Pays wizards, buys armies. There's nothing that his silver tongue and his bankroll can't solve.

Agreed. He wouldn't even have to be evil; even though an evil cult put him into his position of power, maybe he's just chaotic neutral and supports them because they're his buddies.

[(Un)Inspired]

I love this idea for an enemy. Having an unholy abomination transferred in to be raised by the king is awesome. So you should definitely do bard as a base class for this guy. It's kinda perfect for a dilettante noble who's been trained in some magic and swordplay and has charismatic skills.

Here's what I'd also do. Give him the Unholy Scion template from heroes of horror. It brutal for a pc with LA +5 but its basically perfect for your concept for the guy. then give him levels in ur-priest. Make it so he's started to dabble in evil magic and has learned some dark secrets to go along with his bardic stuff.

Do something like Bard 1/Fighter 1/ Bard 3/ Urpriest 9. This is 14 levels and gives him amazing evil divine magic, a dash of bardic casting and performance and unbelievable combat prowess. The best part is that he's only okay at fighting until he turns on his dark powers from Ur-Priest and becomes a combat monster.

If you want him to have slightly lower level casting only give him 7 levels in Ur-Priest and he'll only be 12th level and only have 7th level spells.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm going to say Hexblade/Warlock.

[AMFV]

Agreed. He wouldn't even have to be evil; even though an evil cult put him into his position of power, maybe he's just chaotic neutral and supports them because they're his buddies.

I'd rather have him be really evil, and just very good at not getting his hands dirty. Moriarty to the players. Untouchable because of his legal protections, possibly even befriending them using his social skills and then betraying them to make it that much sweeter.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

So, our group has done some adventures, gotten acquainted, and cleared out a dungeon or two. They've gotten wind of the villain's schemes, and are just about to meet him.
I have the kind of villain I want him to be, but I can't quite decide what to make him, class-wise.
He is a ~12-14 level human raised by a king as his son, so he is skilled in anything a prince would be taught (diplomacy, bluffing, swordplay), as well as being in fairly good condition. He's not in incredible condition, still having had a fairly cushy life, but he's still tougher than most people.
But, he isn't the king's son. He was given life by an evil cult to replace the king, and as such has had their teachings as well (intimidate, as well a some minor magical abilities; I'm thinking sorcerer-esque, but that's not set in stone).

So, what does he sound like to you? An evil paladin? A fighter/sorcerer combination? Something else?
I'm all ears, and would appreciate any and all feedback!

How are you intending him to be confronted? Will he be alone, or perhaps with minor minions, or will he be accompanied by an elite force that's deadly in their own right?

This makes a pretty big difference. I could see Bard, absolutely. Hexblade and Warlock - maybe a Glaivelock? Even a Duskblade. Perhaps give him some SLAs and make him an optimized Zhentarim Fighter.

I won't lie, though, my thought was the Noble from the DLCS, plus a desperately nasty template or two, plus some levels in Warshaper and that PrC from the BoVD that inflicts negative levels on hit. He responds to the final confrontation by calling in favors from powerful allies, made both as the prince and as the avatar of an evil cult. He supports his allies with magic through SLAs and items, and halfway through the battle his form shifts into a twisted abomination. His more terrestrial allies abandon him in horror, but are replaced by demons/undead/whatevski.

[ben-zayb]

Are you familiar with the Tome of Magic? I'm pretty sure that a straight-class Binder fits perfectly with what you want. It can be built in many ways, including a decent melee combatant. It already has Bluff, Diplomacy, and even Intimidate (as you suggested earlier) in its class skill. It also oozes out "Cult" all over its theme.

EDIT: Oh, and d8 means it can take considerably more hits than a Rogue. Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with a Rogue/Warlock mix.

[Jeff the Green]

EDIT: Oh, and d8 means it can take considerably more hits than a Rogue. Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with a Rogue/Warlock mix.

+1 HP/level is not "substantially more hits". Binder often is tougher thanks to getting more benefits from a high Constitution score and some good defenses like Dahlver-Nar's Shield Self, but the HD is almost irrelevant.

[(Un)Inspired]

Are you familiar with the Tome of Magic? I'm pretty sure that a straight-class Binder fits perfectly with what you want. It can be built in many ways, including a decent melee combatant. It already has Bluff, Diplomacy, and even Intimidate (as you suggested earlier) in its class skill. It also oozes out "Cult" all over its theme.

EDIT: Oh, and d8 means it can take considerably more hits than a Rogue. Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with a Rogue/Warlock mix.

The problem with a rogue/warlock is that the only way for them to be threatening is through UMD. At that point you could just have your BBEG be a really caster and actually make him dangerous.

[Jeff the Green]

The problem with a rogue/warlock is that the only way for them to be threatening is through UMD. At that point you could just have your BBEG be a really caster and actually make him dangerous.

Depends on the party. To a low-op group, it can be absolutely deadly—particularly if you can finagle your way into Arcane Trickster.

[Haluesen]

Hmm so here you are going with charismatic, front-line fighting ability, and some magic. Well either duskblade or hexblade could cover the magic with combat idea, or else a battle sorcerer (variant found in the UA) that goes abjurant champion for great combat ability. I believe Complete Mage also had a sorcerer variant that improved combat abilities at the cost of a little magic. Then you would just need to find some way to get intimdate I think. I know sorcerer has the bluffing down.

So depending on what level you want to go with, this villan could go with battle sorcerer/fighter (complete mage also has a variant feature that lets a fighter cast spells in light armor and with light shields, but gives up the heavier armors), and then from there go into abjurant champion. No alignment restriction, magic and swordplay while also having bluff and intimidate. As for diplomacy, I am certain there is some way in all these rules and books to obtain it. I just don't remember any certain way right now. :smallredface:

[(Un)Inspired]

How low-op are we talking here? The Damage that a rogue/warlock can put out can't really take out an entire party before then can drown him in the action economy.

I can't think of anything other than a full caster than can muster the action advantage to take on a party and add unholy scion to is gives it the saves and Hp to ensure that it's unlike to be anticlimactically baconated due to a single disastrous initiative roll.

[Jeff the Green]

How low-op are we talking here? The Damage that a rogue/warlock can put out can't really take out an entire party before then can drown him in the action economy.

I can't think of anything other than a full caster than can muster the action advantage to take on a party and add unholy scion to is gives it the saves and Hp to ensure that it's unlike to be anticlimactically baconated due to a single disastrous initiative roll.

Why are you assuming he'll be fought on his own? This seems like the kind of boss that would never be encountered without a number of bodyguards.

[Milodiah]

Agreed, but it still feels anticlimactic when the biggest damage-dealer in the room isn't the BBEG you've been pursuing across countries and foiling minor minions of for weeks.

[(Un)Inspired]

Why are you assuming he'll be fought on his own? This seems like the kind of boss that would never be encountered without a number of bodyguards.

That's a really good point. I tend to like BBEGs that can hold their own in a fight. Just off the top of my head I don't think a villain is particularly awe inspiring because his friends can beat me up. But in this case maybe that fits the character better.

[Milodiah]

To me, this villain lends himself to the strategy of "Oh no, you seem to have defeated all of my bodyguards. Alas, I am now in your custody!"

*huge malicious grin from DM*

Because there's always another plan with this kind of villain.

[Jeff the Green]

That's a really good point. I tend to like BBEGs that can hold their own in a fight. Just off the top of my head I don't think a villain is particularly awe inspiring because his friends can beat me up. But in this case maybe that fits the character better.
You don't even need the bodyguards to be better at beating up PCs than their boss. They just need to be able to keep their attention so the boss can eldritch glaive them into oblivion one by one.


To me, this villain lends himself to the strategy of "Oh no, you seem to have defeated all of my bodyguards. Alas, I am now in your custody!"

*huge malicious grin from DM*

Because there's always another plan with this kind of villain.

There's a reason Sauron set the standard for fantasy villains.

[(Un)Inspired]

To me, this villain lends himself to the strategy of "Oh no, you seem to have defeated all of my bodyguards. Alas, I am now in your custody!"

*huge malicious grin from DM*

Because there's always another plan with this kind of villain.


Ahh see thats why you should make him a bard/ur-priest like I suggested. Good charisma+Glibness+Divine Insight= super awesome manipulative liar villain that can trick the party into anything.

[sideswipe]

dashing swordsman! all talky classes take it. just to make your players want him dead.

[ben-zayb]

I dunno guys. 9th-level Spellcasting classes doesn't scream "minor magical abilities" to me.

[(Un)Inspired]

I dunno guys. 9th-level Spellcasting classes doesn't scream "minor magical abilities" to me.

Hehe it does compared to 9th level divine spells, 9th level arcane spell and 9th level psionics on one build. But yeah, I see what you mean.

[Milodiah]

BBEG doesn't have to cast] 9th-level spells, though. Or the DM could store them away just in case the PCs do something unexpected, like zoom up to level 18 or something before they face him.

[(Un)Inspired]

BBEG doesn't have to cast] 9th-level spells, though. Or the DM could store them away just in case the PCs do something unexpected, like zoom up to level 18 or something before they face him.

You don't need to be nearly that high of a level to cast 9th level spells...

[Shining Wrath]

Presumably as the king's son he's had the opportunity to learn whatever he felt like learning, so multi-class is easily explained.

As a prestige class, Zhentarim Spy (refluff) covers the false identity thing and gives you always-active undetectable alignment for a two-level dip; not sure if anyone would ever cast Know Alignment on the Prince but some cheeky adventurer just might try.

Aristocrat gives you Bluff and Intimidate. Seven levels of Aristocrat, a couple of Z. Spy, and then tack on something giving you the minor clerical abilities, like Paladin of [Tyranny / Slaughter] or Crusader.

[Vexxaar]

Anti-paladin's always a good class for a BBEG that's been born to evil, however it can tend to be a bit obvious at times when they radiate an aura of evil.
I like the idea of the silver-tongued noble, who always has some form of backup plan, even if he himself is useless in combat. That would also fit with the bard class as well, if you build it correctly.

[Strigon]

So, I went to bed, and you guys are beautiful.
A lot of you seem to be wondering what, exactly, my plan is for this guy.

Well, I plan to have them meet him and either actually save him from a test he put himself through that he wasn't quite ready for, or "save" him from a meeting with the cult who is raising him. Not decided yet.
Either way, after the saving happens, the king and his royal guard show up to take the prince home, and they invite him into the castle to thank them. So they get a nice gold bonus, a few items, and the gratitude of the king.

Later on, they stumble onto a cult who doesn't appear evil, but ~10% of the people who join aren't heard from again, which the cult simply says is "the most pure don't wish to risk soiling themselves with the unclean", or something along those lines. So the party has a few encounters, maybe tries to sneak in, or pretend to join. Either way, they figure out that those who disappear are being sacrificed to begin enchanting an amulet with some really nice effects. Basically, it has enough energy to make an entire kingdom fear the one who wears it. Not full-on mind control, but it will make the masses submit to things they normally wouldn't. They overhear some talk of the irony of this taking place on Miranda's Day, so they report their findings to the king. Question him about Miranda day, and it is a day to celebrate those who are infertile, because his wife was.
And then the king gets very confused.
He has a son, so how could his wife be infertile? Cue the prince using dark magic to kill the king, and framing the PCs, who are either thrown into jail, or escape as outlaws.
So, the prince (now king) has the amulet, and is forwarding the interests of this dark cult. He can't do everything (the amulet can only influence people so much), and he can't let everyone know he's actually an evil sorcerer. Eventually, the PCs have the epic battle with the king and his royal honour guard. And this is where I love what one of you said.
Initially, I was going to have them get halfway through the battle, have the honour guard burst in, and then they have to kill the prince while fighting off the guard.
But now, one of you gave me a much better idea.
"Oh, no! My honour guard is dead! What ever shall I do?"... But what he means is "Good. Now there are no more witnesses. Let me show you what my dark powers can actually do!"

My next comment(s) will be replying to each of you individually.

[Temotei]

Back to classes, he could be a bard/crusader or bard/warblade if Tome of Battle is open.

[Strigon]

Agreed. He wouldn't even have to be evil; even though an evil cult put him into his position of power, maybe he's just chaotic neutral and supports them because they're his buddies.
This is a thing I'll have to play around with.
Maybe he plans to dispose of the cult entirely, and keep the kingdom for himself?
... Intriguing...


I'd rather have him be really evil, and just very good at not getting his hands dirty. Moriarty to the players. Untouchable because of his legal protections, possibly even befriending them using his social skills and then betraying them to make it that much sweeter.
THIS. I am willing to rewrite my entire campaign around this bad guy!
Now, maybe it would lend itself better to another campaign, but I want this bad guy in one of my games! This one, it's tempting... It's my first all-out DM experience, so I want to give the PC's something to remember, but on the other hand, I don't want to make it too complicated... I need to consider this. I'm definitely using it eventually!


How are you intending him to be confronted? Will he be alone, or perhaps with minor minions, or will he be accompanied by an elite force that's deadly in their own right?

This makes a pretty big difference. I could see Bard, absolutely. Hexblade and Warlock - maybe a Glaivelock? Even a Duskblade. Perhaps give him some SLAs and make him an optimized Zhentarim Fighter.
Like my last post said, the fight will initially have the royal guard, him, and the party. He'll just be support then. But once the guards are gone.... It's a full-on epic boss fight, complete with will saves against mind control (or at least, being paralyzed trying to fight what your body wants to do. Just once every few turns, nothing excessive.)


Are you familiar with the Tome of Magic? I'm pretty sure that a straight-class Binder fits perfectly with what you want. It can be built in many ways, including a decent melee combatant. It already has Bluff, Diplomacy, and even Intimidate (as you suggested earlier) in its class skill. It also oozes out "Cult" all over its theme.

EDIT: Oh, and d8 means it can take considerably more hits than a Rogue. Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with a Rogue/Warlock mix.
I'll have to look into this.
I don't know much about binders, but the idea has merit. Thanks!


Hmm so here you are going with charismatic, front-line fighting ability, and some magic. Well either duskblade or hexblade could cover the magic with combat idea, or else a battle sorcerer that goes abjurant champion for great combat ability. I believe Complete Mage also had a sorcerer variant that improved combat abilities at the cost of a little magic. Then you would just need to find some way to get intimidate I think. I know sorcerer has the bluffing down.

So depending on what level you want to go with, this villan could go with battle sorcerer/fighter (complete mage also has a variant feature that lets a fighter cast spells in light armor and with light shields, but gives up the heavier armors), and then from there go into abjurant champion. No alignment restriction, magic and swordplay while also having bluff and intimidate. As for diplomacy, I am certain there is some way in all these rules and books to obtain it. I just don't remember any certain way right now. :smallredface:
Definitely worth looking into.
My players only have the Player's Handbook, so this will either be a complete shocker (which I love) or it will seem terribly unfair. But, then again, I've been letting them off a little easy up until this point. Why not throw a curveball? I mean, it's the end villain. If he can't go just beyond their comfort zone, who can?


To me, this villain lends himself to the strategy of "Oh no, you seem to have defeated all of my bodyguards. Alas, I am now in your custody!"

*huge malicious grin from DM*

Because there's always another plan with this kind of villain.
I rewrote my ending fight to accommodate this. Well done, sir!
Maybe it even takes them to a creepy vault, or shrine, deep beneath the palace?


That's a really good point. I tend to like BBEGs that can hold their own in a fight. Just off the top of my head I don't think a villain is particularly awe inspiring because his friends can beat me up. But in this case maybe that fits the character better.
An excellent point. We can't have the ending boss be a wimp, now can we? That would just be boring.

I hate to be boring... :smallamused:


BBEG doesn't have to cast] 9th-level spells, though. Or the DM could store them away just in case the PCs do something unexpected, like zoom up to level 18 or something before they face him.
Knowing my players, I'll either have to keep some spells back, because they'll just try to kill him long before their time is up, or I'll have to make sure I have some devastating spells under wraps, because they'll try something I never thought of.


You guys have been fantastic, and I have a lot to think about!
I'll still be reading this thread, since I just explained the entire campaign, I'm sure we'll all agree on something.
But for now, I'm doing an in-depth study of all classes mentioned in here.

[Strigon]

I love this idea for an enemy. Having an unholy abomination transferred in to be raised by the king is awesome. So you should definitely do bard as a base class for this guy. It's kinda perfect for a dilettante noble who's been trained in some magic and swordplay and has charismatic skills.

Here's what I'd also do. Give him the Unholy Scion template from heroes of horror. It brutal for a pc with LA +5 but its basically perfect for your concept for the guy. then give him levels in ur-priest. Make it so he's started to dabble in evil magic and has learned some dark secrets to go along with his bardic stuff.


Just read the template, and oh. My. GOSH.
That's beautiful!
I can just see it; they clear out his guard, and all of a sudden, he retreats to his shrine, deep beneath the castle. Where he transforms using Unholy Scion Body. And they chase him through dark tunnels, having quick skirmishes with him, and maybe some undead he kept to chase off nosy peasants who might find this place.
Then comes the real fight. The complete ending battle.
And it. Will. Be. GLORIOUS!

[Sian]

Charismatic Frontliner? ... Screams Marshal (Miniature Handbook) to me, maybe with some Court Herald (Power of Faerun, p108, not that the primary table got lost in editing so it is out as errata) to get around the minor magical abilities. Say Marshal 7/ Court Herald 7

[(Un)Inspired]

Just read the template, and oh. My. GOSH.
That's beautiful!
I can just see it; they clear out his guard, and all of a sudden, he retreats to his shrine, deep beneath the castle. Where he transforms using Unholy Scion Body. And they chase him through dark tunnels, having quick skirmishes with him, and maybe some undead he kept to chase off nosy peasants who might find this place.
Then comes the real fight. The complete ending battle.
And it. Will. Be. GLORIOUS!

That sounds incredibly awesome. I'd love it if you PM'd me the details of how it shakes out when you actually run it.

[Strigon]

That sounds incredibly awesome. I'd love it if you PM'd me the details of how it shakes out when you actually run it.

I'm thinking about doing a campaign journal, actually.
Being my first time as a GM, I thought it would allow for some constructive criticism, and if anything gets put in there that's especially good, it might give others inspiration for their own campaigns.