How viable is Wild Shape focused Druid?

[togapika]

I heard something about HP issues leading to being taken out by simple spells even at high levels? I've started pawing through the PHB, but I don't fully understand it all yet.

[archaeo]

I heard something about HP issues leading to being taken out by simple spells even at high levels? I've started pawing through the PHB, but I don't fully understand it all yet.

The thing with wild shape is that you basically get all the creature's HP on top of your own HP. If you get reduced to 0 hit points while in another shape, you revert back to your normal form. When a druid can do this repeatedly at high levels, you can tank a ridiculous number of hits, since every turn you can just change shapes and get a new HP bar.

The meme name for this, if you were curious, is "onion druid."

[akaddk]

It's very viable. And awesome.

If you look through the currently available list of beasts and elementals, there's already a plethora of options to choose from. Many of which will be super useful in a variety of situations, especially once you get flying and swimming. But even at 2nd-level you can shift into a Giant Spider that can climb walls and shoot a web.

I raised an issue about Grappling in a wild shape form due to the wording of Grappling requiring a "hand". I'm positive that this will be clarified and that druids in an animal form will be able to use moves like push, grapple, etc. Until then it's up in the air as to whether or not the Grappler feat is usable. If it is, then it's pure awesome since you get the stats of your animal form, most of which come with high Strength. So you can either attack a target with advantage, or pin it so that everyone else can attack it with advantage whilst your advantage negates the Restrained disadvantage for you, but not for the target against you.

Plus you can buff yourself with spells like Barkskin before shifting to counter an AC issues. And you can use spell slots to heal yourself while in the form. You can even use items that make sense for the form. For instance, a suit of armour probably wouldn't work, but a ring or a necklace would still be viable in just about any form.

And then at later levels you can turn into an elemental. Take a look at the stats for elementals. Resistances galore. The mere fact that you can choose which element to turn into is a massive advantage.

All in all I think this is possibly the first time I'm excited to play a shifting druid.

[Chen]

I'm not sure how well CR 1 creatures will stand up late game, but the wildshape specialized druid (Moon druid) seems to get CR up to 1/3 their level. Considering the way CR seems to work now this one might be viable at later levels. Note that Moon druid seems absurdly OP at low levels though. Level 2 it gains the ability to turn into a CR 1 creature which means a 34 HP bear with two attacks and 19 str. Twice per short rest. That's FAR above the combat prowess of any other class at that level. Plus those 34 HP are essentially extra, so 68 extra HP per short rest at level 2 is insane.

[emeraldstreak]

It's already great but the best is yet to come. The Dzilla will be back.


To elaborate a bit on this: there's a propensity to DnD I call "The Bleed". It's the constant addition of more and more spells and monsters in every splat and adventure book (often due to tradition: they already existed in previous editions; plus it's easier to convert than to design from scratch when meeting tight splat release deadlines). Which classes benefit disproportionally from the Bleed? Well, full casters and shapechangers, the Druid most of all.

[TheOOB]

First and foremost, you need to understand the a druid is first and foremost a caster, and if all you want to do is turn into an animal and maul people, wait for the inevitable bear warrior barbarian path. If you are not making heavy use of your spells, you are playing the druid wrong(as much as you can be playing any class wrong).

That said, Wild Shape gives an amazing amount of toughness and hp, more than any other class can muster, and with buffs you can be pretty nasty in melee too. Circle of the Moon adds some good fighting and lots of toughness to a strong caster. You won't be a fighter, but you'll be effective.

[Sartharina]

First and foremost, you need to understand the a druid is first and foremost a caster, and if all you want to do is turn into an animal and maul people, wait for the inevitable bear warrior barbarian path. If you are not making heavy use of your spells, you are playing the druid wrong(as much as you can be playing any class wrong).This may not be the case. Turning into an animal is Magic, and thus it is barred from Noncasters.

[1of3]

Oh please, take your edition where the sun don't shine. The Underdark presumably. The Totem Warrior already does magic.

[Sartharina]

Oh please, take your edition where the soon don't shine. The Underdark presumably. The Totem Warrior already does magic.And unfortunately, we've seen the Bear Totem Barbarian, and it does NOT turn into animals to maul their foes. I don't think we're getting another Bear Barbarian.

[HorridElemental]

And unfortunately, we've seen the Bear Totem Barbarian, and it does NOT turn into animals to maul their foes. I don't think we're getting another Bear Barbarian.

Funny enough, this one didn't turn into a bear and get we got one that did.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures

[Sartharina]

Funny enough, this one didn't turn into a bear and get we got one that did.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures

That Bear Barbarian is not magical.

[HorridElemental]

That Bear Barbarian is not magical.

No duh. The bear warrior however is magical even though there is already a Bear Totem barbarian that isn't.

The point is that just because there is a Bear Totem doesn't mean there can't be a Bear Warrior.

Your point has been invalidated.

[Iku Rex]

Here's a relevant rule question:

In Wild Shape, "[y]ou retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

Presumably this includes feats. Some feats improve an ability score. Example: "Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20."

Do you get this benefit in Wild Shape?


Edit:

Hm, and how does "natural armor" interact with Monk or Barbarian Unarmored Defense?

[twas_Brillig]

Hm, and how does "natural armor" interact with Monk or Barbarian Unarmored Defense?

On the one hand, you're bare-ass naked. On the other hand, you may be bear-ass naked.

Put another way, you aren't wearing armor, but you're not humanoid any more (bear doing kung-fu) and you don't have your skin anymore (that's the fluff for barbarian AC, right? Tough skin?). Personally, kung-fu bears seems like the best possible justification for letting it stack.

[TheOOB]

We don't have rules on natural armor yet, so it's impossible to say.

[HorridElemental]

Mike Mearles tweets tend to lean toward you get one base armor be it manufactured (armor/bracers of armor) or unarmored (barbarian/monk). I would say that natural armor falls under the later category.

If a monk and barbarian unarmored defense doesn't stack them I doubt natural armor would. It will probably fall under the lines of Armor + Mage Armor = no stacking.

Which is for the best. Less stacking means less abuse and numbers that stay within bounded accuracy range.

[hymer]

If a monk and barbarian unarmored defense doesn't stack them I doubt natural armor would. It will probably fall under the lines of Armor + Mage Armor = no stacking.

The question may be whether natural armor precludes unarmored defense. A brown bear, e.g., seems to get just one or two points of armour from natural, so it may be worth it still if you can pick one or the other and get wisdom to AC instead of +1 or +2.
But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[HorridElemental]

The question may be whether natural armor precludes unarmored defense. A brown bear, e.g., seems to get just one or two points of armour from natural, so it may be worth it still if you can pick one or the other and get wisdom to AC instead of +1 or +2.
But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I think the general ideal has been if you have multiple sources of AC they don't stack but you may choose which one to use (the bigger number). Wildshape doesn't get rid of your class features so you should still have unarmored defense and natural armor... You just get to pick which one applies.

I forget when mike Mearles tweeted something along these lines but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of it. I have been known to be wrong before soooo yeah there is that.

[hymer]

I think the general ideal has been if you have multiple sources of AC they don't stack but you may choose which one to use (the bigger number). Wildshape doesn't get rid of your class features so you should still have unarmored defense and natural armor... You just get to pick which one applies.

I forget when mike Mearles tweeted something along these lines but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of it. I have been known to be wrong before soooo yeah there is that.

While I agree with the overall notion, I have doubts about unarmored defense in particular. It specifies that it doesn't work when you are armored. Obviously having armor on counts as armored, but does natural armor count as armor? It looks like claws and fangs are game technically weapons (looking at stats in the back of PHB), so there's reason to think they may have decided that natural armor is armor.
But there's no certainty right now, and I don't think a DM ruling either way would break anything. Just so long as things don't stack.

[Person_Man]

Also, the fact that the Druid can't cast spells while Wildshaped for the vast majority of his career is a metagame blessing in disguise. You start in a Wildshape form, you're really hard to kill, you're mobile, you have decent melee. When you get to a really hard battle you revert to humanoid form and burn through your highest level spells. Then you can fall back on Wildshape until your party can take a long rest. The resource management is a lot more interesting and balanced then it was in 3.X/PF.