Finding a motif for the BBEG

[Spore]

Hi guys,

so I need a villain. My current story revolves around a charismatic CN fleet admiral initiating a rebellion against the not-so-bad LN king of what is essentially 15th century Spain with guns. My PCs haven't gotten far enough to uncover the rebellion (supported by pirates, stray marines and even foreign nations) but they will be in due time.

The rebellion fights against the nobles to improve the rights and conditions of the common folk. Problem is the nation is always threatened by war from the north. A superior nation is to the north and all it would need is a little push to attack a weakened land. This is where my BBEG should come in.

But it should be a puppet master behind the current main plot. He or she should benefit greatly from an upcoming war, be it any way you can imagine. the BBEG should be clearly evil and should force egotistical CE group members to act against him. Current ideas:

- Cleric devoted to an Infernal Lord collecting souls to summon an Infernal Duke or worse or directly trying to convert the land into the bastion of devilkind in the material realm.
Problem: An other DM is already using devils heavily (also our table seems to LOVE evil outsiders as enemies but I feel it has been overdone) and I would dislike to use more of them.

- After years of securing the nation's stability the assassin guild's leader (think Assassin's Creed) feels like he has a right to the throne. (all the warleaders proclaiming war against the nation just ... die mysteriously for several generations, because the royal family has made their pact).

- Something elemental themed. Just because I have an Ifrit, a Sylph, a Fetchling and a Devil Spawn Tiefling in my party (yeah and a CE human). I'm thinking the followers of the kraken god think the area should be submerged into the ocean to be the kingdom of the kraken down below.

- Some kind of Naga submarine kingdom trying to submerge the land into the ocean. I just can't imagine why they want something from land dwellers.

Any creative ideas? Need any additional insight on our homebrew setting?

[Hazrond]

...Some kind of Naga submarine kingdom trying to submerge the land into the ocean. I just can't imagine why they want something from land dwellers...

Magic items would be a good choice, especially if you have a sharn-esque magic item production city somewhere on the continent

[Grollub]

how bout a rakshasa, acting in the role of a war profiteer, selling arms and supplies to each side? :smallcool:

[Hazrond]

how bout a rakshasa, acting in the role of a war profiteer, selling arms and supplies to each side? :smallcool:

of course, the weapons dissapear when out of sight after a few days of use :smallwink:

[Beneath]

An underwater kingdom might be Sahuagin who are destroying the land-dwellers out of paranoia that the land-dwellers will kill them first, maybe?

Though, I like the elemental option. The big question is what intermediaries is a Kraken god using to influence mortals?

It could also be a fey behind all of this, trying to bring both kingdoms to destruction over some unbelievably petty grievance. Fey can be like that.

Or your villains might be giants, come to turn the lands back into the primal force they once were. Maybe they're working for or being manipulated by the Kraken.

It might also be a religious leader, trying to push the two kingdoms to war so that they have an excuse to declare a religious war against one kingdom or another. Or a religious leader of a common religion who has decided that he needs more hardened war veterans for some plan or another and is engineering war for the sake of war. Or a general from the northern kingdom seeking glory for the sake of making his own bid for the throne (maybe he's helping the rebels right now, only to turn on them later).

[avr]

The elemental themed idea seems like a natural one for an aboleth who thinks big.

Nagas in myth found gems important. If there are mines of some rare gems in the kingdom perhaps they want the gems. All of them.

[Marlowe]

Hi guys,

so I need a villain. My current story revolves around a charismatic CN fleet admiral initiating a rebellion against the not-so-bad LN king of what is essentially 15th century Spain with guns.

So. 15th century Spain then.


A superior nation is to the north and all it would need is a little push to attack a weakened land.

Ah. The French.


This is where my BBEG should come in.

You already have the French and you want more villainy?

Obviously, your villain should be Cardinal Richelieu.

[Larsen]

The setting seems to be quite advanced civilizations, it could be a blight druid starting a conflict between the 2 nations to destroy them both.

Since druids like to work with elementals, there could also be a connection with the associated planes to bring more destruction.

For the beginning, the druid can just provide the admiral the weather control to help the fleet.


Edit: I thougth elementals would be imune to the diseases the bligth druid would bring, but it seems they are only imune to poison...

[Chd]

Hi guys,

so I need a villain. My current story revolves around a charismatic CN fleet admiral initiating a rebellion against the not-so-bad LN king of what is essentially 15th century Spain with guns. My PCs haven't gotten far enough to uncover the rebellion (supported by pirates, stray marines and even foreign nations) but they will be in due time.

The rebellion fights against the nobles to improve the rights and conditions of the common folk. Problem is the nation is always threatened by war from the north. A superior nation is to the north and all it would need is a little push to attack a weakened land. This is where my BBEG should come in.

But it should be a puppet master behind the current main plot. He or she should benefit greatly from an upcoming war, be it any way you can imagine. the BBEG should be clearly evil and should force egotistical CE group members to act against him. Current ideas:

- Cleric devoted to an Infernal Lord collecting souls to summon an Infernal Duke or worse or directly trying to convert the land into the bastion of devilkind in the material realm.
Problem: An other DM is already using devils heavily (also our table seems to LOVE evil outsiders as enemies but I feel it has been overdone) and I would dislike to use more of them.

- After years of securing the nation's stability the assassin guild's leader (think Assassin's Creed) feels like he has a right to the throne. (all the warleaders proclaiming war against the nation just ... die mysteriously for several generations, because the royal family has made their pact).

- Something elemental themed. Just because I have an Ifrit, a Sylph, a Fetchling and a Devil Spawn Tiefling in my party (yeah and a CE human). I'm thinking the followers of the kraken god think the area should be submerged into the ocean to be the kingdom of the kraken down below.

- Some kind of Naga submarine kingdom trying to submerge the land into the ocean. I just can't imagine why they want something from land dwellers.

Any creative ideas? Need any additional insight on our homebrew setting?

A Grey-Paladin (True-Neutral alignment) would work as an emissary of a Cthulhu-Style Kraken-God.

Make him a Prince-In-Exile, banished to the Northern Lands with his Loyal Forces by his brother, who took the throne after having assassins slay their father.

The Admiral that you mentioned is loyal to the Grey Paladin/legitimate heir to the throne, and the 'Northern Threat' is the current king's propaganda (It's really the Grey's Fleet trying to run the blockade/return home.)

For the Grey Paladin's appearance, I'm thinking a Knight with 6 Pistols in a bandoleer on his chest, and a massive pelt cape.

Just my thoughts, anyway.

[Spore]

So. 15th century Spain then.

Ah. The French.

You already have the French and you want more villainy?

Obviously, your villain should be Cardinal Richelieu.

While having the continental position of France the land is actually fluffed more like a united medieval Germany (they have more men but lack the firearms Spain has imported from "Japan/China/Asia/the West").


The setting seems to be quite advanced civilizations, it could be a blight druid starting a conflict between the 2 nations to destroy them both.

Since druids like to work with elementals, there could also be a connection with the associated planes to bring more destruction.


This....is like. Firstly evil druids are not your average evil sorcerer villain. Secondly this makes great use of the landscape and gives an excuse to use elementals, giants, fey creatures and all the other primal or first worldly creatures almost no DM has touched in our rounds.

His servants will be Naga, Elementals, Fey, Water Spirits and he even may be seen as the intermediate of the evil Kraken god, giving me possibility to use evil Clerics and the whole aberration line against the party.

Then I can also explain why victimless piracy is on the rise and no ship can escape the pirates despite being some of the quickest ships in the world. The druid spells just stop them in their tracks (no wind, no current and several water elementals stopping any movement by rowing).

[Red Fel]

Any creative ideas? Need any additional insight on our homebrew setting?

You knew I'd be here. Like a moth to a flame. Hello there.

So, you need a motif for your villain? How about this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eE0w0A-GkE)?

Ooh, right. Not that kind of motif. Okay, let's go.

You want Evil, right? Hardcore, intelligent Evil, not the savage, short-minded sort, right? But you're reluctant to employ LE, because another DM is overdoing it with Devils. Understandable. They're overplayed, if entertaining. My suggestion? NE Annihilist. Not Nihilist, Annihilist.

Let me explain. The Nihilist decides that nothing has meaning, because everything is nothing. The Annihilist decides that everything has meaning... Because it can be destroyed. We're going with that. A NE villain who has dipped his fingers into different pies for the primary purpose of destroying everything. I love your idea of the "Lord Below" concept - your villain can basically be attempting to destroy the surface world, and conquer the land above him without actually having to set foot on it. (Give him a "jar of dirt" weakness for extra chuckles.)

I'd like to add another point. If you make him an Evil Sea God worshiper of some stripe or other, you don't have to be obvious about it. Using terms like "The Lord Below" and "The Deepest Dark" and such makes him sound like an Evil Outsider, not a Sea Monster, which means you can totally blindside the players. Especially if they're overplayed on Devils.

Okay, so, musing aside, how would I swing this? Octopus motif. Think about HYDRA. (Out of the shadows.) Tentacles that span the globe, little suckers pulling at everything. The PCs learn that this rebellion is one of many. That this rebellion is receiving funds from other (successful) revolutions elsewhere in the world. That there is a certain organization, and a certain figure, pulling the strings on all of them. And that many of these successful revolutions are gearing up for war.

That's the villain's plan. Help each rebellion, so that he has a stake in the new regime, and so that the country is weakened by infighting and can easily be made paranoid. Trigger massive wars between the global powers that ruin the surface population. And then sink the depopulated continents for the benefit of his underwater cult.

I may post more later. This is just off the top of my head; it's early here, so my brain isn't awake yet.

[Spore]

[snip]

Your evil is almost a match for my own! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1eDBZj1fi4)

While I dislike your annihilist concept (you can't just make up a school of philosophy on the fly, and I am certainly not talented enough to roleplay reasoning of "I destroy things because they can be destroyed") I really like your world spanning master plan and the idea of a MAJOR plot (possibly so big even other campaigns at least have to acknowledge it) is great.

I will mix part Cthulhu, part Daemons, part Primal Nature to bring up something which could be easily a carbon copy of World of Warcraft's Twilight Hammer cult (they serve the old ones and pervert elementals into something vile). While good stealing is better than writing badly yourself I will need to change a few things from getting repetitive for my one player who played WoW.

[Red Fel]

Your evil is almost a match for my own! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1eDBZj1fi4)

While I dislike your annihilist concept (you can't just make up a school of philosophy on the fly, and I am certainly not talented enough to roleplay reasoning of "I destroy things because they can be destroyed") I really like your world spanning master plan and the idea of a MAJOR plot (possibly so big even other campaigns at least have to acknowledge it) is great.

I will mix part Cthulhu, part Daemons, part Primal Nature to bring up something which could be easily a carbon copy of World of Warcraft's Twilight Hammer cult (they serve the old ones and pervert elementals into something vile). While good stealing is better than writing badly yourself I will need to change a few things from getting repetitive for my one player who played WoW.

Yeah. I started with annihilation, but eventually I think I veered away from that.

The concept leans more towards NE or LE. The goal is destruction of life (or at least surface life) via corruption and influence. Your sources for inspiration are myriad. (I'd add The Pirates of Dark Water, because of awesome.)

Your potential for imagery is myriad as well: Visions of dark caverns deep below; the sensation of something wrapping around you, crushing you; the feeling of asphyxiation, something cutting off your breathing; phrases like "From beneath you, it devours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beneath_You)," and "Up from the depths, thirty stories high (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTItRfN-LO8)," and so forth. You can drop hints all over the place - piece of seaweed here, carving of an octopus here, merfolk skull there. Whatever you like. And you can pepper this stuff in corners and side spots throughout the campaign, have it hit them in a revelatory moment.

As for the character himself... You probably want someone a bit mad, is the first thing. Darkness + Depths + Solitude = Madness, and you've got to be just a wee bit off to want to drown the planet for some vengeful Deep Thing. Either the BBEG himself is the nutter, or one of his high-ranking minions is. (If the latter, he should probably be the one the PCs encounter most often once they've caught wise to the scheme.)

In fact, a hierarchy isn't a terrible idea. A world-spanning conspiracy needs a lot of moving parts. Obviously, having a zealot for the cause is well and good, but you need some more pragmatic roles as well. An arms dealer is an excellent choice, if part of your motivation is to steer the world into global war. And that's the sort of character the PCs can meet early and often; the smirking rogue (the personality, not the class) who prophetically warns the PCs, "You shouldn't trust anyone. Particularly me (http://m.cdn.blog.hu/be/benyo/image/201106/Petyr_Baelish_quote_wallpaper_zillobeast.png)." You could also use a few infiltration experts - masters of disguise, people who tend to turn up in various places. And a few combat specialists, professional revolutionaries and the like. Their knowledge of and loyalty to the conspiracy should vary, of course, but be sure to have plenty of them.

But the BBEG himself should be more of a shadowy presence than an active participant, for the vast majority of the plot. Even once the conspiracy is revealed, he should generally only be mentioned in whispers, his will revealed in various letters and other correspondence. Unlike his underlings, who can be revealed as NPCs the PCs have met before, the BBEG should be almost a total unknown; this allows the players to build up his image in their minds. By the time they meet him at last, they hate him for what's been done in his name, and fear him for what they think he is.

[Spore]

Subtlety is actually refreshing because the other campaign want to portray more of a power difference/epic (epic as in the story type and not the level or the amount of fun) story than the fact that your villain isn't even known by his or her full name. In one, they're trying to "revive" an undead nation under the dead pharao. In the other the roguish villain tries to reduce the number of worshippers to literally weaken a god and then destroy him via artifacts. And in the third one - well - our BBEG is a ancient red fiendish dragon working for devils destroying major landscapes (I may or may not refer to her als Lady Deathwing).

[Red Fel]

Subtlety is actually refreshing because the other campaign want to portray more of a power difference/epic (epic as in the story type and not the level or the amount of fun) story than the fact that your villain isn't even known by his or her full name. In one, they're trying to "revive" an undead nation under the dead pharao. In the other the roguish villain tries to reduce the number of worshippers to literally weaken a god and then destroy him via artifacts. And in the third one - well - our BBEG is a ancient red fiendish dragon working for devils destroying major landscapes (I may or may not refer to her als Lady Deathwing).

Subtlety is really quite perfect for a villain like this. For one thing, an underwater motif is an amazing source of terror, what with the comfortable intersection of Drowning, Deep-Dark, and The Unknown meeting together and attended to by Scary and Deadly Monsters and Here There Be Dragons. And terror and subtlety go hand-in-hand. (Sometimes more than that, but to be fair, theirs is a tempestuous on-again-off-again romance.)

For another thing, subtlety could actually be required for this guy. I like the idea of using a "jar of dirt" style weakness (see: Pirates of the Caribbean) for him. If the surface is actually anathema for him, it not only gives him a reason for wanting to destroy it, it also gives him an incentive to remain out of the way - he becomes actually incapable of handling these matters himself. That's why he operates from the shadows and through agents.

[Spore]

Well, now I have mechanical questions. My buddies told me that if I am not wanting to create a TPK early on I would leave my hands away from non scripted actual combat with sea creatures aboard a ship. Is he too dramatic or is he actually right? I know I won't sic a CR 18 kraken to their first boat trip without making a "scripted" ship-wrecked interlude.

But things like two medium water elementals are actually lethal material I feel. How am I to introduce a bit of sea combat and give the players the fear to drown without actually loosing control of whether a PC drowns or not? (Not that the kraken wants the heroes to be killed right now, they ECL 3 and cultists/rebels will try to win them for their side).

[Larsen]

How am I to introduce a bit of sea combat and give the players the fear to drown without actually loosing control of whether a PC drowns or not?


If some creatures can fight aboard without fear of falling in the sea (waterbreathing, swim speed, ...) they could devise a tactic to capsize the boat while fighting onboard. For exemple attaching grappling hooks on one side of the boat with sharks pulling toward the bottom. You define the time in rounds needed for the sharks to actually do it while describing the boat leaning more and more.
Meanwhile the fight onboard is to prevent the PCs from cutting the ropes.

[Red Fel]

There are a number of ways to handle sea combat. I'm pretty sure Stormwrack is a good source for that.

For me, at least at low levels, I'd treat it as follows: Minimize the risk of sinking. Say it's because ships would rather be boarded or something. Basically, enemies would rather engage upon a steady surface than drag PCs into the deeps. If there must be a risk of sinking, don't let it be due to kraken-grappling (at least, not at low levels). Say it's instead due to bombardment by an enemy ship or something. And in doing so, implement a timer. Basically, "X rounds until the ship is in range to fire." Once the ship is in range, each round, roll the attack, roll the damage, and have the PCs make some kind of Reflex save to avoid being knocked down if it connects. Once enough damage has triggered, have everyone make some kind of save as the ship collapses, and then switch to a narrative mode to avoid drowning them all. Note that none of this should exclude death by stupidity. If a Dwarf in full plate jumps overboard, he doesn't get saved. If someone decides to swing from the ropes onto the enemy ship without gauging the distance, let him fall. If someone decides to bull rush an enemy off the ship, he can sink or swim.But basically, I would treat naval combat, at least at low levels, as though the battlefield were an island that occasionally shakes, rather than an environment where enemies actively try to drown the PCs.

At later levels, of course, the kraken's going to want to give them a hug.

Frankly, I like the idea of using a "countdown to cinematic" method. The PCs can still fall into the water, of course, but at least at low levels you won't force it on them. Instead, you create a sense of urgency ("If we can't fight these pirates off long enough to maneuver away, we'll all drown!") without actually creating the risk.