Valor Bard attack question

[MeeposFire]

Wow that has to be the unsexiest title to a thread I have ever made...

NOw my question is this. A valor bard can make an attack as a bonus action after casting a spell. 1st I believe it is just an attack and not an attack action correct so only 1 attack also did it specify melee or was it any weapon attack? 2nd how would the damage compare if I chose to add a combat related cantrip to my bard using my standard bard spell choices from other classes? Eldritch blast, ray of frost, shocking grasp, etc could make for decent damage followed by an attack. How does it compare to a typical valor bards weapon attacks? Is it ahead, behind, or about the same as using typical attack routines and does that depend on weapon choice as normally I would probably wield a shield or use two weapons so I could for instance be comparing a cantrip+attack against 2 attacks+bonus dual wield attack.

I don't own the book yet I am just using my musings while looking at it when I was at the store so I may have missed some rules and I know I do not have enough knowledge to make an informed choice on my own yet.

[Scirocco]

It just says "weapon attack" so I'd assume it could be used with ranged weapons.

The rest of that is just mathing stuff...

[MeeposFire]

It just says "weapon attack" so I'd assume it could be used with ranged weapons.

The rest of that is just mathing stuff...

Yes sadly without the book I cannot get into the math. I was hoping some early thoughts from people here would help me think of which way to go thematically in case I get invited to a game and get to play before I own the book. I would like some idea of what I would do.

Of course if it turns out similar or better to use cantrips I would then need to choose which one to use...

[MeeposFire]

As an additional question as for weapon and cantrip damage what bonuses to damage can you get? I know you get ability bonus to damage with weapons and magic bonuses if you use a magic weapon but is there anything else and are there any bonuses that work with cantrips? That would probably influence my choice as well.

[Townopolis]

In short, no cantrip receives bonus damage. They all deal a 1dx damage, which upgrades as you level to eventually reach 4dx. With the right cantrip, I believe the cast+attack method will provide the highest DPR for a valor bard. Other melee classes will have a variety of extras they get to add to attacks that make a full attack spread superior, but valor bards only lose one or two regular attacks in exchange for, eventually, four dice of damage.

For this, I recommend one of two cantrips:

Vicious Mockery - low damage, but native to bard and lets you use a 2h weapon or shield.
Poison Spray - high damage, but requires a free hand.


Both allow a save, so you'll want to raise your Charisma to make that hard in addition to keeping Strength or Dexterity high for attacks (STR being better for damage). If you're okay adding another cross-class cantrip and want to avoid too much MAD, Shillelagh will let you use Charisma for weapon attacks, but requires you fight with a club or staff.

Maximum damage will be achieved by combining Poison Spray, Shillelagh, and a high Charisma.

[MeeposFire]

Poison spray does more damage than say eldritch blast with its 4d10 beams and why does it need a hand open more than any other spell does it have a special extra requirement?

Hmm shillelagh would allow me to minimize needed attributes which is a good thing so I may need to consider that is that a cantrip as well?

[Scirocco]

Poison spray literally says that the puff of gas comes from the palm of your hand, hence requiring a free hand.

[Dark Tira]

Poison spray literally says that the puff of gas comes from the palm of your hand, hence requiring a free hand.

That's not how the rules work. It requires a free hand because it has a somatic component. If you take the warcaster feat you no longer need a free hand as long as you are using a weapon.

[MeeposFire]

That's not how the rules work. It requires a free hand because it has a somatic component. If you take the warcaster feat you no longer need a free hand as long as you are using a weapon.

That is cool because if I took war caster I could theme it as being a breath of poison which is neat enough I suppose.

[Townopolis]

It's actually Vicious Mockery that's special since it only has a verbal component. Poison Spray is the single highest-damage cantrip. Also, you will be sad if you try to mix melee attacks and any cantrip that uses an attack roll.

Incidentally, both Poison Spray and Shillelagh are druid cantrips, so you could grab both with the Magic Initiate feat if you wanted.

[DCraw]

I'm still waiting for my copy of the PHB to arrive, so this is all based on the Basic rules. It doesn't look like you add your ability modifier to spell damage (including cantrips) unless the spell explicitly tells you to. That said, with the scaling of cantrips you may find that the extra damage outweighs the lack ability modifier by about 5th level. In general, cantrips seem to increase in damage by one die at levels 5, 11, and 17. I'm not sure how cantrip/weapon damage would be affected by any of your buffs, though, so you may need to look into that.

Note that most cantrips have a somatic component, so they can't be used while wielding a 2-handed weapon. By RAW this includes bows, but you may be able to convince your DM to let you hold the bow in your left hand, cast with your right, then draw and fire an arrow with both hands. There really is no need to have your hand on the string if you don't have an arrow nocked. The other option is to wield a one handed sword (although note that cantrips with ranged attack rolls will be at disadvantage it you're within melee range of an enemy).

I don't know what you're giving up by choosing a cantrip over a higher level spell, but here are the options that seemed promising:

Fire Bolt: 1d10 (up to 4d10) fire damage with a ranged attack roll. 120' range. It can also be used to ignite unattended flammable items.
Poison Spray: 1d12 (up to 4d12) poison damage with a con save. 10' range. No disadvantage because it's not an attack roll.
Ray of Frost: 1d8 (up to 4d8) cold damage with a ranged attack roll. 60' range. On a hit, reduce the targets speed by 10'.
Shocking Grasp: 1d8 (up to 4d8) electric damage with a melee attack roll (with advantage if they're wearing metal armour). On a hit, the target cannot take reactions.

There will probably be other options in the full PHB worth considering.

[1of3]

As an additional question as for weapon and cantrip damage what bonuses to damage can you get? I know you get ability bonus to damage with weapons and magic bonuses if you use a magic weapon but is there anything else and are there any bonuses that work with cantrips? That would probably influence my choice as well.

Sorcerers can add Cha to damage.

[MeeposFire]

It's actually Vicious Mockery that's special since it only has a verbal component. Poison Spray is the single highest-damage cantrip. Also, you will be sad if you try to mix melee attacks and any cantrip that uses an attack roll.

Incidentally, both Poison Spray and Shillelagh are druid cantrips, so you could grab both with the Magic Initiate feat if you wanted.

Wouldn't shcking grasp work with melee if I so choose it is a melee attack and not ranged like most of the others.

I also noticed that in addition to sorcerers warlocks can get cha to eldritch blast but as far as I can tell it would require an actual level of warlock to get the invocation.

[DCraw]

Wouldn't shcking grasp work with melee if I so choose it is a melee attack and not ranged like most of the others.

I also noticed that in addition to sorcerers warlocks can get cha to eldritch blast but as far as I can tell it would require an actual level of warlock to get the invocation.

Both Poison Spray and Shocking Grasp will work in Melee. Poison spray does not have an attack roll, and so has nothing for you to have disadvantage on, although it grants the target a con save. Being in melee distance will not affect this save, but other factors might.

Shocking Grasp has a melee attack roll, which does not suffer from disadvantage from being in melee range, and it even gets advantage if they are wearing metal armour. It does less damage, but also denies them reactions (AoOs).

[neonchameleon]

A Valorous Bard gets two attacks/round from level 6 if they take an attack option. Or one cantrip and one attack if they take the combo option at level 13. By level 13 the cantrips should be doing 3 dice of damage and attack using your casting stat (Bards are fairly blatantly a dex/con class). 3 dice is only weaker than an attack if you are using Vicious Mockery, and that inflicts disadvantage.

That said, there's the issue with needing an extra hand. In melee you want a rapier and shield anyway - so you really need a feat to exploit this. At range you're good. One hand holding the bow, the other free for arrows and spells.

Does Vicious Mockery make an attack roll or force a save?

Edit: The Bard power move for combat is at level 10 to steal capstone spells from the Ranger (like Swift Quiver - two ranged attacks as a swift action) or the Paladin. But that takes casting your high level spells...

[Human Paragon 3]

Well, how about taking cantrips that don't deal damage, such as illusions or healing? That way you can attack twice when you want to deal damage, or attack and cast when you want versatility.

[Yorrin]

Well, how about taking cantrips that don't deal damage, such as illusions or healing? That way you can attack twice when you want to deal damage, or attack and cast when you want versatility.

If only there were healing cantrips. But really you should keep both options open- have a solid attack cantrip and have a solid combat utility cantrip and switch as needed.

[hawklost]

If only there were healing cantrips. But really you should keep both options open- have a solid attack cantrip and have a solid combat utility cantrip and switch as needed.

There is a 'healing' cantrip. Spare the Dying stabalizes people. Sureit isn't exactly as useful as giving someone 1 hp every casting or anything, but it IS a healing cantrip :smallbiggrin:

[MeeposFire]

Well, how about taking cantrips that don't deal damage, such as illusions or healing? That way you can attack twice when you want to deal damage, or attack and cast when you want versatility.

Cantrip really no but generally I think the best in combat heal that is not a full heal seems to be the healing word spells since they are a bonus action to cast and thus you can attack twice and use that spell.

I think my best option may involve a slight dip into warlock for 2 levels. Doing so grants me eldritch blast and the ability and will allow me to take an invocation that gives me the ability to get cha damage on my blast. This is significant levels of damage because the spell launches several blasts per use and multiples can hit for multiple instances of +cha damage. So at higher levels my bard could be doing this

eldritch blast 4d10+20 (assuming 20 cha and all 4 hit which is not a gimme but this is theoretical) and then shoot a ranged attack for DX+dex.

If I pick up haste as a spell from another class(and I think I will it is a bard classic so I am surprised that it isn't a bard spell since it has been in 2e, 3e, and 4e) I can do this instead.

Attack 2X DX+dex, eldritch blast (haste action) 4d10+20, bonus action attack dX+dex.

Pretty nasty and being ranged I avoid a lot of potential danger of losing concentration and since I can make an attack after casting I can keep attacking while buffing with haste.

This could be a worth while dip in the end as unless the capstone is more meaningful than I think (it is cool but I don't think it is the be all end all) then I don't think I miss much. Only thing I see is 1 6th level spell, 1 seventh level spell, and the ability score improvement (unless multiclassing accounts for this I do not have those rules in front of me). The 2 spell slots a day do not bother me much personally but if I miss out on that ability enhancement/feat that could sway me unless I find I don't need it.

EDIT:ooops just realized that haste does not allow you to cast a spell with its extra action so I am back down to a 4 hit spell and then two attacks with a weapon in that round. Still lots to think about I think.

EDIT2: I am not sure this can be answered yet without a MM but do you all think that attack roll based spells will end up being better in general or saving throw based spells? Eldritch blast can get multiple cha damage on it but ranged attack roll spells are harder to use up close whereas saving throw spells don't care. The roll itself would end up similar I think but I am not sure.

[Sharogy]

Cantrip really no but generally I think the best in combat heal that is not a full heal seems to be the healing word spells since they are a bonus action to cast and thus you can attack twice and use that spell.

I think my best option may involve a slight dip into warlock for 2 levels. Doing so grants me eldritch blast and the ability and will allow me to take an invocation that gives me the ability to get cha damage on my blast. This is significant levels of damage because the spell launches several blasts per use and multiples can hit for multiple instances of +cha damage. So at higher levels my bard could be doing this

eldritch blast 4d10+20 (assuming 20 cha and all 4 hit which is not a gimme but this is theoretical) and then shoot a ranged attack for DX+dex.

If I pick up haste as a spell from another class(and I think I will it is a bard classic so I am surprised that it isn't a bard spell since it has been in 2e, 3e, and 4e) I can do this instead.

Attack 2X DX+dex, eldritch blast (haste action) 4d10+20, bonus action attack dX+dex.

Pretty nasty and being ranged I avoid a lot of potential danger of losing concentration and since I can make an attack after casting I can keep attacking while buffing with haste.

This could be a worth while dip in the end as unless the capstone is more meaningful than I think (it is cool but I don't think it is the be all end all) then I don't think I miss much. Only thing I see is 1 6th level spell, 1 seventh level spell, and the ability score improvement (unless multiclassing accounts for this I do not have those rules in front of me). The 2 spell slots a day do not bother me much personally but if I miss out on that ability enhancement/feat that could sway me unless I find I don't need it.

EDIT:ooops just realized that haste does not allow you to cast a spell with its extra action so I am back down to a 4 hit spell and then two attacks with a weapon in that round. Still lots to think about I think.

EDIT2: I am not sure this can be answered yet without a MM but do you all think that attack roll based spells will end up being better in general or saving throw based spells? Eldritch blast can get multiple cha damage on it but ranged attack roll spells are harder to use up close whereas saving throw spells don't care. The roll itself would end up similar I think but I am not sure.

Is there any rules specify which level the spell caster level is refering to?
Based on your assumption, any class multiclass 2 level into warlock is capable of getting a 4d10+20 ranged attack at a character level 17, which is questionable at best? Surely any monk would go for atleast 1 into warlock as their capstone suck and a free 4d10 ranged option beats out throwing darts any day and any time.

[MeeposFire]

Is there any rules specify which level the spell caster level is refering to?
Based on your assumption, any class multiclass 2 level into warlock is capable of getting a 4d10+20 ranged attack at a character level 17, which is questionable at best? Surely any monk would go for atleast 1 into warlock as their capstone suck and a free 4d10 ranged option beats out throwing darts any day and any time.

It is kind of a moot point regardless I can still choose eldritch blast for my bard choices of spell mysteries. The warlock level 2 is for the cha damage boost.

But note that it would take an unusual monk anyway since most monks do not have high and EB requires cha for both attack and damage.

[Sharogy]

It is kind of a moot point regardless I can still choose eldritch blast for my bard choices of spell mysteries. The warlock level 2 is for the cha damage boost.

But note that it would take an unusual monk anyway since most monks do not have high and EB requires cha for both attack and damage.

Well the point is obv if the spell caster level = character level or class level, while as bard obv you can still claim it to be a bard spell.
But It does matter to some extend, for a better example, i can make a 19 Monk//1 Druid, i now have poison spray for 4d12 , instead of 1d4+5 throwing dart as a ranged option.

[Theodoxus]

Just grab the magic adept feat (afb, sorry, don't remember the exact name) and get 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell. Your monk can then use Poison Spray and Druidcraft (cuz luls) and Cure Wounds 1/day for when you're about to die, or something.

[Townopolis]

Poison Spray has a 10 foot range, you're going to want Produce Flame (30'), Thorn Whip (30'), or Sacred Flame (60') for your WIS-based ranged attack. /nitpick

And, on that note, I was wrong when I suggested that a bard could take Shillelagh and Poison Spray with Magic Adept, as the feat is worded such that you would end up having to use WIS for both cantrips when you really want to use CHA, so you -would- want to take them as spell mysteries.

[Yagyujubei]

eldritch blast would never get +20 to dmg, you add your ability modifier not your actual ability score....it would be 4d10+5

[MeeposFire]

eldritch blast would never get +20 to dmg, you add your ability modifier not your actual ability score....it would be 4d10+5

I may need some outside confirmation but as I rcall the one ability says add cha bonus as damage on a hit with eldritch blast and unlike all other cantrips eldritch blast creates 4 beams all with a separate attack roll. That means unlike all other cantrips it can hit up to 4 times at higher level. Am I remembering the exact wording incorrectly as that certainly is possible?

[Vhaluus]

I may need some outside confirmation but as I rcall the one ability says add cha bonus as damage on a hit with eldritch blast and unlike all other cantrips eldritch blast creates 4 beams all with a separate attack roll. That means unlike all other cantrips it can hit up to 4 times at higher level. Am I remembering the exact wording incorrectly as that certainly is possible?

I believe you are correct

"When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma
modifier to the damage it deals on a hit."

[Townopolis]

I may need some outside confirmation but as I rcall the one ability says add cha bonus as damage on a hit with eldritch blast and unlike all other cantrips eldritch blast creates 4 beams all with a separate attack roll. That means unlike all other cantrips it can hit up to 4 times at higher level. Am I remembering the exact wording incorrectly as that certainly is possible?

It clearly works the way you think it works, but this is also the kind of thing I can easily see a DM saying clearly doesn't work that way. I.e. you are correct, but check with your DM anyways.

[MeeposFire]

It clearly works the way you think it works, but this is also the kind of thing I can easily see a DM saying clearly doesn't work that way. I.e. you are correct, but check with your DM anyways.

Fairly certain that won't be a problem but I will keep it under advisement.

I also noticed the issue with taking shillelagh without using magic mysteries but I forgot to mention it. It was a good idea though.

4 attacks with cha damage on it and a bonus ranged attack is pretty powerful but it does require 2 levels of warlock and I don't see any way around it. The problem with that is that you give up a set of ability bonuses for that and that means even more pressure on your ability scores since you need dex for weapons and cha for spells. As far s I know there is now way to get a ranged cha weapon attack (well unless the warlock hex blade can be ranged and I don't know that and I also can't seem to find anything saying that attacks made with that weapon are with cha and even if it is that is even more levels of warlock which could cost me my 9th level spell). I could instead go without the warlock levels but then I am down to either using a cantrip and a weapon attack which at that point it might be better just to go with weapons in general. Not sure though there is a coolness factor to cast and strike (but I also hate not using class features and so I will miss out on my extra attack). I could also just go warlock but being a bard is something I do in every edition so...

Tough possible trades ahead.

[Yagyujubei]

Yeah I re-read everything and that does seem to be how it works, god that's strong in so many combinations...

[ambartanen]

(well unless the warlock hex blade can be ranged and I don't know that and I also can't seem to find anything saying that attacks made with that weapon are with cha and even if it is that is even more levels of warlock which could cost me my 9th level spell).


You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you summon it...

It cannot be ranged and it does not attack with charisma or add it to damage. There is a 12th level warlock invocation (lifedrinker) that adds charisma to the pact weapon's damage on top of whatever attribute you are already using to attack. Presumably you can also use shillelagh on the weapon although actually getting access to it as a blade warlock is quite tricky. I suppose two attacks for 1d8+2*cha might be worth it though.

Why wouldn't charisma be added to each attack of an eldritch blast? Seemed pretty clear to me that it is specifically what the invocation is stating.

[Vhaluus]

Fairly certain that won't be a problem but I will keep it under advisement.

I also noticed the issue with taking shillelagh without using magic mysteries but I forgot to mention it. It was a good idea though.

4 attacks with cha damage on it and a bonus ranged attack is pretty powerful but it does require 2 levels of warlock and I don't see any way around it. The problem with that is that you give up a set of ability bonuses for that and that means even more pressure on your ability scores since you need dex for weapons and cha for spells. As far s I know there is now way to get a ranged cha weapon attack (well unless the warlock hex blade can be ranged and I don't know that and I also can't seem to find anything saying that attacks made with that weapon are with cha and even if it is that is even more levels of warlock which could cost me my 9th level spell). I could instead go without the warlock levels but then I am down to either using a cantrip and a weapon attack which at that point it might be better just to go with weapons in general. Not sure though there is a coolness factor to cast and strike (but I also hate not using class features and so I will miss out on my extra attack). I could also just go warlock but being a bard is something I do in every edition so...

Tough possible trades ahead.

Take swift quiver as one of your spells from any class, that way your bonus action can in fact be TWO ranged attacks as long as the weapon uses a quiver

[MeeposFire]

Take swift quiver as one of your spells from any class, that way your bonus action can in fact be TWO ranged attacks as long as the weapon uses a quiver

Good idea for more attacks (and one I just may use) though it does not help my distaste for not using a class feature (assuming that is why you mention this) as I still would not be using that feature when I use that spell for the extra attacks. I just hate not using class features even if I come up the same. It isn't a big deal just somewhat annoying.