[3.5] Samurai-esque class suggestions?

[InfinityArts]

Hello everyone.

After a very long and very eventful history with 2nd edition, our gaming group has finally decided to take the step up to 3.5. As such, we're trying to transition existing characters and loots. I, myself, am looking for samurai/kensai/paladin equivalent classes fit for a LG-leaning-NG character. So far in our party we already have a charismatic party-face paladin that regularly Gandalf (verb) the party into/out of trouble, a comic relief rogue whose absence causes as many problems as his presence, a wild mage type who mostly acts as a support and takes pleasure on turning party members into... furry companions, and a seasoned player who's played everything from raging demons to smexy nymphs (fill). As for me, I'm usually the practical member of the party that tries to keep us from diving head first into the nearest field of hallucinogens, I'm also the party's main source of melee DPS. We all roleplay heavily, a single combat round (when we actually fight) for us can take up to fifteen minutes.

Since many of our group is unfamiliar with a lot of 3.5 mechanics, we've decided to leave most the feat system out of it for now (I know...), focusing primarily on roleplaying to carry out some of our more... exotic tendencies.

So I was hoping for class suggestions that can reliably put out melee damage without need for a lot of feats (aside from the obvious Power Attack and dual-wielding). My last character was a kensai that accumulated a boatload of honor prior to dying an epically badass death, which afforded me certain privileges in rolling up a new character including a flat +2 to all stats. My 2nd-edition stats are:

Level 6 Human (was undead (was half-dragon)) Unclassed (was Death Knight-esque (was Paladin)), it's a very long story...
STR: 18/00 (got lucky with the 100 roll, will probably transfer as a 20)
DEX: 13
CON: 18
INT: 10
WIS: 17
CHA: 18

No racial/levelup bonuses have been applied.

Any ideas on worthwhile classes? Any advice on equipment/others would also be very helpful. Our party has a lot of magical items but most fall into the category of, uh, weird stuff (read: pocket-sized self-inflating wooden dreadnoughts and bat capes). She did inherit the kensai's sword though (not magical AFAIK), so that's gotta stay the main weapon.

TL;DR : Need ideas for sword-wielding classes that don't need a lot of feats to dish out reliable damage. Oh, and shiny equipment options, too.

Cheers.

[Anlashok]

If you can switch that cha bonus to int... Warblade. With your current setup. Swordsage. Both are Tome of Battle and they uh... have special attacks more or less as their gimmick.

If those are off the table... Zhentarim fighter would benefit from that good charisma score and fits the bill of an intimidating samurai warrior pretty effectively.

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe take the Oriental Adventures Samurai (NOT the Complete Warrior Samurai, that class is a trap) and add the Zhentarim fighter's demoralization-focused abilities on top? OA Samurai does have a bonus feat progression, but it's slower than the fighter's, and they have a feature at first level that gives them a katana and wakizashi that they can enchant at half price.

[Lans]

Even if you cant swap the stats warblade is still goodnight

[gorfnab]

Psychic Warriors can make decent Samurais. Just call your psionics "ki".

[InfinityArts]

ToB is off the table because of balancing issues. I can't seem to find any information on this Zhentarim fighter dealio, help me out?

Regarding the OA samurai, that does seem to be a good idea. Since the feats are from a predefined list, I don't think we'll have problems with them. Will need to explain how dragon ancestors came to possess daisho...

Psychic warrior is very appealing, but I worry about the 3/4 BAB progression. We're severely lacking in magical weapons and armor of most varieties, so BAB is pretty much the majority of my to-hit bonuses.

[sideswipe]

you could go with a factotum and take the skill iaijitsu focus. eventually go into iaijitsu master. its one of the more powerful "samurai" builds. and a level dip in warblade gives an attacking option to keep your enemy flat footed.

factotum 8/warblade 1/iaijitsu master 10/whatever 1 would be a good build.

the factotum 8 gives you 2 standard actions a turn. and you can take any skill. iaijitsu focus is a skill roll you make after drawing your weapon and attacking a flat footed opponent to add a fist full of d6's to your damage.

warblade as said gives you more abilities to make the opponent flat footed (needed for iaijitsu focus) and some cool other attack, buff or defence options.
you could take the warblade at any level in your first 6 to gain the benefit earlier.

iaijitsu master lets you add that very nice charisma to ever extra dice from iaijitsu focus!
(so the max is 9d6 on each attack. make that 9d6+36 for you) and the ability to make 2 strikes with a single standard action attack. couple that with factotums take two standard actions and you get 4 attacks with iaijitsu focus. all you need is to have a way of drawing a weapon before each attack (you could use a gnome quick razor) or just carry a whole bunch of katana's with you and take quick draw. and drop them after every attack and draw another. you could instead use a -2 cursed longsword (ask for katana) which is the only weapon you can ever pull out. so carry a mundane dagger, drop the longsword, draw your dagger and behold its a longsword! and strike! apart from the few little odd bits you will look like you are drawing your sword, and returning it to its sheath many times a round and striking after each draw for copious amounts of damage.

edit - just read no TOB, shame as its only a dip....

[gorfnab]

Psychic warrior is very appealing, but I worry about the 3/4 BAB progression. We're severely lacking in magical weapons and armor of most varieties, so BAB is pretty much the majority of my to-hit bonuses.
See if you can use the Soulbound Weapon ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) for Psychic Warrior. This will give you a magic weapon more or less. Psychic Warrior has quite a few powers that give a bonus to hit/damage and increase stats. This Psychic Warrior Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?162701-3-5-The-Psychic-Warrior-Handbook) may be of some use.

[InfinityArts]

While the optimizer in me would love to do 4x 9d6+36 in a round, my gaming group wouldn't appreciate it very much. Though I'm fairly certain I can convince my DM to let me pick Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill for either the OA Samurai or the Psychic Warrior, given the character's past experiences. Come to think of it, a lot of class skills will be chosen based on character herself, not class (same goes for other characters).

RE: Soulbound Weapon ACF: Well... I do love self buffing and hitting things. Definitely enjoy the out-of-combat utility options, really opens up a lot more RP options for me and team. I'll take a detailed look at the handbook. Thank you.

[sideswipe]

While the optimizer in me would love to do 4x 9d6+36 in a round, my gaming group wouldn't appreciate it very much. Though I'm fairly certain I can convince my DM to let me pick Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill for either the OA Samurai or the Psychic Warrior, given the character's past experiences. Come to think of it, a lot of class skills will be chosen based on character herself, not class (same goes for other characters).

RE: Soulbound Weapon ACF: Well... I do love self buffing and hitting things. Definitely enjoy the out-of-combat utility options, really opens up a lot more RP options for me and team. I'll take a detailed look at the handbook. Thank you.

it is on the OA samurai's list, its intended for him, hes just not great at using it. but dumping a few feats, skill tricks and playing it clever can yield a pretty good result. and iaijitsu master is in the same book. so you could do what i said, just not get 4 attacks for hideous damage, more like 1 or 2 max.

and at level 6 you will still be a straight samauri, with the option to take your next level in iaijitsu master. have a look. you can tone down and tone down the build i said by using samurai and not pumping iaijitsu focus too much. the problem is getting the flat footed often enough. so concentrate on that. and get little bits of extra damage.

[Diovid]

Step 1: Be a CW Samurai, I know, I know, bear with me.
Step 2: Read the dead levels article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x).
Step 3: Read the fear handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8759.0).

[sideswipe]

Step 1: Be a CW Samurai, I know, I know, bear with me.
Step 2: Read the dead levels article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x).
Step 3: Read the fear handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8759.0).

wow. almost as good as most other classes trying the same thing ;)

but really its not a bad build for a low optimised group. you will pull your weight. but if the group are experienced in 3.5 you will just be a sad panda. if you think the other samurai will be too powerful for your first campaign, then this could work. but you might end up after a while asking to re-train or re build (there are rules for retraining in PHB2

[Beneath]

Psychic Warrior is a good pick. I think the idea is that you make up for what you lose in attack bonus by using psionic powers. Offensive Precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm) catches your attack bonus up pretty well on the fights where you can manifest it fully augmented (spending the maximum amount of PP on it. Your maximum is equal to your level, but it augments only by multiples of 3, plus one. so 4 at 4-6, 7 at 7-9, 10 at 10-12, and so on), though that will cost PP. It's an Insight bonus though, which means it stacks with a magic sword if you can get one.

Metaphysical Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaphysicalWeapon.htm) nets you a magic weapon (also, note that, though both powers have two augmentations, they work differently. Offensive Precognition, for 7 PP, can grant you a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls for 1 minute per level as a swift action, or a +3 insight bonus to attack rolls for the same duration as a standard action. Metaphysical Weapon for 5 PP grants a +2 weapon for 1 hour/level).

I'd suggest taking the Soulbound Weapon thing if you want to avoid using feats (since a Psywarrior gets bonus feats). Otherwise, feats to consider (you have, let's see. one at first, third, and sixth level always, one more for human, and one for first, second, and fifth level as a psywarrior, so seven feats. You'd be missing out on a lot of character-building and character power if you ignore feats): Psionic Meditation and Psionic Weapon are both worth taking; Psionic Weapon mostly so that your 8th level bonus feat can be Deep Impact, if you're worried about hitting things.

Overchannel (another feat) would get you the ability to spend an extra power point on augmentation when you need it (or more, later on); at level 6, that would be augmenting Offensive Precognition to 7 PP (but remember that you only have 20 at this level). At level 8 you'd be able to augment Metaphysical Weapon to 9 PP (+3 weapon for nine-ten hours), and Offensive Precognition to 10 PP (+4 insight to attacks, or +2 as a swift action). If the hit point damage worries you, you can spend even more PP on temporary hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) (though I don't recommend this).

Also, D&D3 has a major change from AD&D: players can easily make, and are assumed to be able to buy, magic items. You might want to take an item creation feat as a Psywarrior, then. Taking Craft Psionic Arms and Armor would let you turn a few days of downtime and some cash for raw materials into magic (psionic, technically) weapons and armor for the party.

Finally, you might want to look in to the Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment feat line, especially if you're planning to use Deep Impact.

----

With those stats you could also be a paladin. You already have one, so don't if that's the problem. But it would be simpler than a Psychic Warrior.

The advice around taking item creation feats holds for Paladins. Though, you won't be able to take any higher than Craft Wondrous Item because of your decreased caster level.

[Beardbarian]

If you are looking for a low optimization class, even a Fighter could be interesting. Katana, Weapon focus and you are ready

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

ToB is off the table because of balancing issues. I can't seem to find any information on this Zhentarim fighter dealio, help me out?

Here's the Zhentarim Solder substitution levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), which can easily be reflavored to strip it of any association to a particular organization. Be sure to take the feat Imperious Command in Drow of the Underdark, get the Fearsome armor property from that same book (which is a more recent version than the one in MIC), and get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel. Obligatory Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) link. The Fearsome armor is so you can Intimidate as a move action and Intimidate as a swift action in the same round, and still make a melee attack or even a second move-action Intimidate.

It's more likely that ToB is off the table due to a lack of knowledge of actual game balance on the part of the DM, but he's most likely so set in his beliefs that it will be impossible to sway his opinion. Such a shame. Maybe see if you can go Zhentarim Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, so you would have significantly lower level maneuvers than a single-classed Warblade would have access to. In that case your one standard action attack could be a martial strike instead of just a normal attack, so there wouldn't be such a huge drawback to missing out on full attacking by intimidating again. Barring that, just make Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1062806).

[InfinityArts]

"It's more likely that ToB is off the table..."

The DM and I have actually played a campaign where ToB was allowed (outside our normal group). Unfortunately, I was the only fighter-type that played one of those classes. The difference in power was just... ridiculous.

I have no problem searching for feats and playing obscure classes, but other members of my group is very very unfamiliar with how 3.5 works (like, "what are feats?" unfamiliar). I'm trying to stay super low on the optimization for the benefit of these members. With an easy 18 WIS, though, I'll still have some pretty clutch options to pull my guys' asses out of the fire.


"Here's the Zhentarim Solder substitution levels..."

Also, from the looks of how our last adventure ended, the majority of enemies we'll be encountering will be dragons, undead, and constructs. Fear doesn't particularly excel there.


"If you are looking for a low optimization class, even a Fighter could be interesting. Katana, Weapon focus and you are ready"

I don't want to play the fighter because of the limited options outside of combat, as well as the dull monotony of playing a feat-limited fighter.

RE: Beneath: Thanks for the advice, I'm a bit unclear on Psionics. I can only use powers whose base power cost is equal or less than my PW level, but I can augment them beyond that limit? Also, It's likely that any non-class bonus feats will be nixed, and the remaining feats will be crafting-related.

With enough persuasion and guidance though, I'm fairly confident that I can get the group to start utilizing feats.

[aleucard]

Take a Paladin or non-Cloistered Cleric, focus on melee (though if you're doing Paladin, Mounted Archery is thematic). If you're doing Cleric, pick a deity with fitting methodology and call your 'follow your deity's will' restriction your Samurai code. Paladin's the generally weaker of the two, obviously, but it doesn't need Divine Power for full BAB and may actually fit better for a Samurai-type. I'm wanting to try my hand at something like this, myself.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With Psionics, you can never spend more power points on a given power than your total manifester level. This also limits how much you can augment a power.

Here's The Tier System For Classes (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0), it should give you an idea of the disparity in power between the various classes. Compared to a Fighter or Monk (Tier 5), the ToB classes (Tier 3) are extremely powerful, but only by comparison to extremely weak classes. By comparison, a single-classed Druid can solo most encounters that should have otherwise been a challenge to the rest of the party. "I am a druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)"

Just make a Cleric of no specific deity, and only prepare spells that buff yourself or could have their effects described as 'ki' or whatnot. Get the Strength and War domains, get a Bastard Sword (Katana) for your favored weapon, you'll need to use two hands to wield it as a martial weapon but that's standard for traditional Samurai anyway. Take the feat Law Devotion from Complete Champion, and use your daily Turn Undead uses to power that. Use the spontaneous domain casting alternate class feature in Player's Handbook II for one of those domains instead of spontaneously casting cure or inflict spells. Say you visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion without spending a feat on it, and take Divine Oracle in Complete Divine. That gives you Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and a bunch of other reacting-quickly-flavored class features fitting for a Samurai.

[Urpriest]

Psychic warrior is very appealing, but I worry about the 3/4 BAB progression. We're severely lacking in magical weapons and armor of most varieties, so BAB is pretty much the majority of my to-hit bonuses.

Remember, you guys will probably want to re-do gear, since WBL scaling is different between the two editions. So that might help out once you take that into account.

[bekeleven]

I like how the party is a paladin, an incompetent rogue and a flavor caster and everyone's like "Warblade or bust", or even cleric?

Seriously, people. Fighter is a perfectly fine class for this party. Anything tier 3 would smash them, especially Tome of Battle with its low optimization floor.

This is why when I made a tier list, I rated every class by 3 categories: "Top PO" being how good it can be without being off the walls, "Standard PO" meaning how I play it with people I don't know very well who might take unkindly to dumb loopholes, and "Newbie Op" meaning how good it would be if I was handed the class to play in 2003, when I first picked up the game and hadn't learned of forums.

This group is Newbie Op (that's not an insult, it just means they don't frequent forums). A Newbie Op Paladin is newbie tier 5, because it scales pretty evenly across op levels and has a solid chassis. A newbie op rogue is tier 5, because they can't sneak attack half the MM and don't optimize UMD. A newbie op warblade is high tier 4, and psywar can drop to tier 5 with crappy powers known but generally sticks above 4 as well.

With this group, I'd go for a class that's newbie-op tier 5: Zhentarim Fighter is tier 5 even without optimal feat selection, Marshal is tier 5 but doesn't quite fit the character theme, Knight is similar to Paladin but maybe not enough of a striker, Soulborn could work but it's not newbie-friendly, and of course a barbarian without leap attack would fit right in (but need reflavoring).

So those are my suggestions. Zhentarim Fighter is a fighter with some intimidate powers, Knight is a good samurai but a bit defensive for your role, Soulborn is kinda complicated, and Barbarian (rename "rage" to holy something) can kill with the best of 'em.

[Beneath]

RE: Beneath: Thanks for the advice, I'm a bit unclear on Psionics. I can only use powers whose base power cost is equal or less than my PW level, but I can augment them beyond that limit? Also, It's likely that any non-class bonus feats will be nixed, and the remaining feats will be crafting-related.

With enough persuasion and guidance though, I'm fairly confident that I can get the group to start utilizing feats.

Hey, if you refer the others here, we could probably give them suggestions for feats.

As for psionics:
A 6th level psychic warrior would know six powers. The table doesn't tell you this explicitly, but because you only gained three of them since you gained the ability to know 2nd level powers, three of them can be 2nd level, and three of them must be first level (though if you wanted they all can be first level)

Your first level powers cost 1 pp base, always; your 2nd level powers cost 3 pp base, always.

You have available PP equal to the number on the table for your level (11 at 6th) plus half your wisdom mod * your level (when there's a half left over, round down); 1/2 * 3 * 6 is 9, for a total of 20. 18 WIS would get you 3 more PP, for a total of 23.

You can augment powers to spend up to your manifester level in PP on them. Your manifester level is usually equal to your level, but the Overchannel feat lets you manifest a power as though you were a higher level character if you hurt yourself doing it. You won't do this often because this blows through your power point reserve extremely quickly. You might not even take Overchannel if you just have class bonus feats.

Both the powers I recommended (Metaphysical Weapon and Combat Precognition) are 1st level, leaving you with one more first-level power and three powers that can be 1st or 2nd level to know.

----

If you just have your class bonus feats, that cuts your feat budget down to three, at 1st, 2nd, and 5th levels. The one at fifth level has more options because you can meet more prerequisites by then. Notably, it's the only one you can use to get Psionic Meditation or Craft Psionic Arms and Armor (though, technically by RAW you wouldn't be able to get crafting with it, because your bonus feat must either be available to fighters or tagged [psionic], and CPA&A is just tagged [item creation]).

[InfinityArts]

I like how the party is a paladin, an incompetent rogue and a flavor caster and everyone's like "Warblade or bust", or even cleric?

...

This group is Newbie Op (that's not an insult, it just means they don't frequent forums). A Newbie Op Paladin is newbie tier 5, because it scales pretty evenly across op levels and has a solid chassis. A newbie op rogue is tier 5, because they can't sneak attack half the MM and don't optimize UMD. A newbie op warblade is high tier 4, and psywar can drop to tier 5 with crappy powers known but generally sticks above 4 as well.


I personally like to dally around tier 3, and purposefully gimp myself through uncooperative personality or laziness (in-character) if my group isn't on the same level. T1 and 2 aren't fun, in my opinion, though I do appreciate the option to... have options. I have played a high op warblade, and while dealing 500+ damage in a round was exciting the first few times around, mowing down entire legions gets boring pretty quickly.

Since this is a continuation of a 2nd ed campaign after a time-skip, we have a lot of home-brewed stuff that will be carried over. Our paladin has a limited collection of arcane spells (including a metamorph-type ability), our mage is best bros with a god, and we have more platinum and gold than my 18/00 STR was able to carry. Within our party, we usually always have the tools to deal with whatever the DM throws at us, we're just... occupied with making things interesting. It's a lot of roleplaying, even in combat.

RE: Beneath: Thanks for the explanation, I'm usually pretty good at optimizing powers and spells-wise.

[InfinityArts]

Update on the situation:

Campaign is underway. My DM and I have talked and I've decided to drop the psionic part (two other party members are psions, go figure). Instead, I've been training with a certain someone for a while and have been granted Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus/Spec and their respective Greater versions, for free (with other standard weapon-related feats like Improved Crit, Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy on the way as long as I'm diligent to my studies). These feats are for my katana, which, following the OA Samurai ancestral weapon, my DM allows me to freely change its enhancement bonuses as long as I'm willing to pay the gold cost and ritual times. Other bonuses of my training include immunity to poison/disease/aging, and enhanced saves against level drain, dimension door 1/week at CL my level, and the ability to learn at a much faster rate than normal mortals.

I'm trying to create an Iaijutsu Focus... focused build. Being level 8, I've opted to enhance my katana as a +1 Sudden Stunning Katana. Theoretical combat goes: attack, stun enemy, next round sheath (swift), draw (move), Iaijutsu Focus attack (standard) for maximum style points. Are there any other weapon enhancements that would work with this style of combat? I was considering Magebane (general usefulness), Impaling (maximum style points), and Valorous (just because).

Also, I'm pretty dumb when it comes to 3.5 armor and their magical equivalents, literally any advice on this front is welcome.

Obviously, this campaign is playing very loose with typical character development rules here, but I'd appreciate any advice. While I can't pick feats outright, I can roleplay towards getting those feats (with the enhanced learning fluff).

P.S. Does anyone have good experiences with the Vizier card from the Deck of Many Things?

[ILM]

Blurstrike (Races of the Wild?) is expensive at +2 but pretty great for that sort of thing.