Monk-Sorcerer combination. Help needed

[karn]

Greetings, good citizens of Giant in the Playground. I appeal to you in the hour of need - for I require your optimization wisdom.

Accidently I got a playgroup and with it - another player’s character. It’s Monk 2\ Sorcerer 1 in the party of tier 1-2 PCs. And I can’t really change anything, except, maybe, feats on the next level-up.
So question is - how should I level this character next, so he can provide something useful in the group?

Game features:
- Only Pathfinder materials allowed. Generous point-buy system. Max HP on every level up. Magic items are extremely rare in the world.

Character:


Human Monk (Martial Artist) 2 \ Sorcerer (Empryal) 1
Stats: Str 16 / Dex 20 / Con 10 / Int 10 / Wis 18 / Cha 8

Traits: Life of Toil (+1 fort), Reactionary (+2 init), Vagabond Child (+1 esc.art.), Magical Knack (+2 CL)

Feats: Dodge, Crane Style, Bleeding Attack, Additional Traits, Scorpion Style (+ monk’s standard)
Spells: cantrips, Infernal Healing, Mage Armor

Other Party members are - Oracle, Witch, Synthesist and Cleric.

I know 3.5 optimization a little, but unfamiliar with Pathfinder. As far as I can see Monk isn’t very good in PF too, so my next level should be that of a Sorcerer. Yet, there are still 2 lost levels. I can’t compete on spellcasting field with full casters, but maybe with careful spell and feat selection I can provide something in the melee without being outshined by Synthesist? While ignoring Constitution - with "max hp" rule it isn’t great, but still "ok".

Please help me. If it’s possible.

[emeraldstreak]

Well you do have Magical Knack. There aren't really any martial classes in PF that can compete with full casters. I guess the previous player was planning some control/tank build leaving the DPR to the Synth, but with nothing done for reach and AoOs so far it looks bad. It's best to play it as a Sorcerer who's behind in levels.

Sorcerers do well combining Metamagic Mastery and Spell Specialization for a damaging spell early on.

What can you change? IMO that character would be a lot more interesting as, say, Monk 2/Druid 1 or something.

[Fayd]

Ok, keeping in mind that I know next to nothing about optimization... Some questions to ask:
1. What was the original player of this character going for? I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but so many of the character choices seem... in conflict with one another. (Not all, the bloodline makes perfect sense, for example).

2. I think, and I could be totally wrong, that picking spells that have multiple charges or are delivered with a melee touch (chill touch, intensified Shocking Grasp), could be a very interesting choice. These spells discharge when you touch something... including when you punch them. Including when you punch them with Flurry of Blows, delivering multiple charges of the spell at the same time on the same guy. The multi-charge ones in particular, when your caster level is high enough; you get the melee touch attack as part of the casting, but if you can't expend all the charges you hold them for the next round, meaning they get to hurt more. Basically, spend some resources on buffing your to-hit and deliver some nasty melee "Touch" attacks. Unfortunately there are few spells that do this (a search of the database shows that your options are basically Chill Touch and Calcific Touch for this sort of thing).

3. If you want to be on par with the Synthesist, it would be helpful to know what they look like too. Just because you're in a group with a bunch of T1s doesn't necessarily mean they're built to their full potential.

4. Good luck, being forced into another person's character can be... difficult. You could also attempt to just get the character killed so you can build something more to your liking. I know that's not exactly the solution you're looking or, but...

[Spore]

I would honestly go for a Monk 2 Crossblooded Empyreal/Gold Draconic Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple.

[Mystral]

Ignore the monk part and level only as a sorcerer. You will be two casting levels beneath your ECL, but that should still be workable for a tier 2 class.

Alternatively, get yourself killed and roll something decent.

---------------

Wait a minute, your sorcerer has Charisma 8? That means he can't even cast spells. What's going on?

I think they are playing a joke on you.

[emeraldstreak]

He's Empyreal, Wis replaces Cha and he'll also get channel divinity eventually. On the flip side, no Osyluth Guile.

[Red Fel]

Wait a minute, your sorcerer has Charisma 8? That means he can't even cast spells. What's going on?

I think they are playing a joke on you.

Empyreal Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Sorcs cast from Wisdom. So there's some Monk synergy there, for what it's worth.

That said, I agree with others. From here on, level as a Sorc who just happens to have Monk levels.

Most amusingly, if you do that, Martial Artist becomes completely irrelevant, given that it doesn't replace anything until Monk 3. If you stay at Monk 2, the archetype is meaningless. You've basically just taken a two-level Monk dip for bonus feats, Flurry, Stunning Fist, Evasion, and your 1d6 unarmed damage. Also some decent saves, good on you for that. Now just focus on Sorc, and you're good.

[Mystral]

I see. Still blows.

You could take a few gish spells and have unarmed combat as a fallback or surprise weapon. Or you go touch spells.

[Segev]

(removed; duplicate post with below)

[Segev]

Is there a PF equivalent of Practiced Spellcaster? The feat which lets you have +4 CL as long as it doesn't cause your CL to exceed your hp? It won't help with your being behind a spell level, but it will at least help keep your CL up to snuff.


Your Celestial bloodline gives anything you summon DR/evil. You might consider having summoned creatures serve as flankers for you and allies.

Your Wis. bonus to armor will stack with your Mage Armor and Shield spells, so you should, at least through level 5 or so, be a decent front-liner. Magic Weapon applies to your unarmed strikes. It's not great, but it will let you hit through DR/magic and it will let you have a 50% chance of hitting incorporeal foes. Mirror Image will also help.

Consider Jump as a spell. Normally not a great choice, but your monk levels give you access to Acrobatics as a skill, so it would stack there and let you make some impressive leaps for low-level mobility that remains relevant even as you get to mid levels (though does fall behind the more optimal transport spells).

You may also want to take advantage of the ability to "hold" a touch spell, so you can cast it, hold it, and then unleash it with your first strike in a flurry.


Being a full spell level behind is going to sting, constantly. I would suggest looking for synergies with your ability to be a gish or to do things with high wisdom, and for spells who have esoteric or clever uses. You're a low-end Tier-2 with this build, but you can emphasize your physical capabilities to make yourself stand out a bit. Use magic to do "monk-like" things from wuxia films, and that will likely distinguish you from the synthesist.

[Psyren]

Is there a PF equivalent of Practiced Spellcaster? The feat which lets you have +4 CL as long as it doesn't cause your CL to exceed your hp? It won't help with your being behind a spell level, but it will at least help keep your CL up to snuff.

There is a trait for this: Magical Knack, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) but it is only +2 instead of +4. Still, it will help, and won't take up a feat slot if traits are allowed during chargen.

[Beowulf DW]

Empyreal Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Sorcs cast from Wisdom. So there's some Monk synergy there, for what it's worth.

That said, I agree with others. From here on, level as a Sorc who just happens to have Monk levels.

Most amusingly, if you do that, Martial Artist becomes completely irrelevant, given that it doesn't replace anything until Monk 3. If you stay at Monk 2, the archetype is meaningless. You've basically just taken a two-level Monk dip for bonus feats, Flurry, Stunning Fist, Evasion, and your 1d6 unarmed damage. Also some decent saves, good on you for that. Now just focus on Sorc, and you're good.

Not to mention his casting stat to AC, which is nice.

Personally, I'd ask them to let you swap Archetypes on the Monk side for Sohei. That will allow you to qualify for Eldritch Knight.

[karn]

First and foremost - thank you all. Your feedback is really helpful.
Now, about questions:

- What can I change
I can change feats for sure. Maybe spells too. About everything else (especially archetypes) I'll ask GM as soon as possible.
- What was planned
Emeraldstreak is right - as far as I understand it was planned as some kind of "tank" character.

As I can see, basic advice is to play as a Sorcerer (2 lvl behind). Or kill this character. First I like more, but second is possible too.
Speaking of sorcerer side - I can't possibly decide what spells should I take (or change) next. General advices from handbooks isn't much useful, since things that are good for "sorcerer 1 [ecl 1]" not so good for "sorcerer 1 [ecl 3]". Chill Touch isn't very attractive on a damage side, but I see the overall appeal of using touch spells with unarmed attacks. Shield and Mirror Image will be added to Spell Known in short time. Is there any other ways to get at least something out of my monk levels by spell selection?

Also, I can't take Spell Specialization - too low Int. But Metamagic Master is a go, when I'll know what spell to choose for it.

[Segev]

Is there any other ways to get at least something out of my monk levels by spell selection?

Well, if you can reliably make your own save DCs, Evasion could offer an amusing tactic of using yourself to bait large clumps of enemies around you and then Fireballing point blank.

I am not sure I recommend this on an optimization scale, but it IS a funny option if you can make it work for yourself.

[(Un)Inspired]

Well, if you can reliably make your own save DCs, Evasion could offer an amusing tactic of using yourself to bait large clumps of enemies around you and then Fireballing point blank.

I am not sure I recommend this on an optimization scale, but it IS a funny option if you can make it work for yourself.

This. Totally this. You'll have a fun time playing a radical character. And hey maybe (probably) the character will die. Then you can bring in your own character and you didn't totally just kill of the previous one without doing something ballsy first.

[Crimson Wolf]

Dimensional Styles might help you out if you have Dimension Door as a spell you can use, Dispelling Fist giving you a swift action dispell to your unarmed attacks. You can also get Jawbreaker if you have any spell like ways to stun your opponents in order to deal extra damage as well. Of course this is if you are going the route of getting up in melee range of them all.

[oldkingkoal]

EDIT:
Just noticed, wrong system. Haha, my bad.

[emeraldstreak]

First and foremost - thank you all. Your feedback is really helpful.
Now, about questions:

- What can I change
I can change feats for sure. Maybe spells too. About everything else (especially archetypes) I'll ask GM as soon as possible.
- What was planned
Emeraldstreak is right - as far as I understand it was planned as some kind of "tank" character.

As I can see, basic advice is to play as a Sorcerer (2 lvl behind). Or kill this character. First I like more, but second is possible too.
Speaking of sorcerer side - I can't possibly decide what spells should I take (or change) next. General advices from handbooks isn't much useful, since things that are good for "sorcerer 1 [ecl 1]" not so good for "sorcerer 1 [ecl 3]". Chill Touch isn't very attractive on a damage side, but I see the overall appeal of using touch spells with unarmed attacks. Shield and Mirror Image will be added to Spell Known in short time. Is there any other ways to get at least something out of my monk levels by spell selection?

Also, I can't take Spell Specialization - too low Int. But Metamagic Master is a go, when I'll know what spell to choose for it.


The last low-level sorcerer I saw was using Metamagic Master on Magic Missile + Toppling Spell; and Spell Specialization on Burning Arc (I think his bloodline also boosted Burning Arc). But as you said, you don't have the Int for SS and you also don't currently have any metamagic feats to benefit from Metamagic Master.