Why they need to exile him at first(ootpcs spoiler!)

[With a box]

if they locked Durkon in dwarven land then the prophecy cannot be fulfilled: if A never leave from here, then he cannot come back to here.

[oppyu]

But then they risk Durkon escaping.

If they murdered him however...

[With a box]

But then they risk Durkon escaping.

If they murdered him however...

do trun him into stone and fabricate it into a brick and sell it on macket.
there are planty of way to remove something forever.

[Murk]

I think Durkon was, ehm, their friend? Most people would hate to turn their friends into stone or kill them. Of course, some (maybe me) would kill their friends to save their people, but these dwarves probably not.

The best would have probably been telling Durkon about the prophecy. If you trust he is lawful enough to never come back, you can trust he is lawful enough never to leave. But that would probably have had the same problems: Durkon leaving or coming back against his will, as is happening now.

[factotum]

They exiled him because they misinterpreted the prophecy. They took it to mean that Durkon would bring death and destruction if he left *his own house* and then returned to it, and there was no way they could prevent him doing that short of killing him or putting him under eternal house arrest. They therefore felt the least Evil approach was to rely on Durkon's own Lawfulness to prevent him returning home--which would have worked, too, had it not been for the minor problem of Durkon now being imprisoned in his own head and powerless to prevent it!

[Amphiox]

They exiled him because they misinterpreted the prophecy. They took it to mean that Durkon would bring death and destruction if he left *his own house* and then returned to it, and there was no way they could prevent him doing that short of killing him or putting him under eternal house arrest. They therefore felt the least Evil approach was to rely on Durkon's own Lawfulness to prevent him returning home--which would have worked, too, had it not been for the minor problem of Durkon now being imprisoned in his own head and powerless to prevent it!

Worse than that. At the exact moment the High Priest learned of/got the prophecy, Durkon had just *already left his house* to go about his daily business, and thus would be expected to *return* to it later that day...

IIRC correctly they plucked him in a panic right out of his regular daily routine and sent him off that very same day, without allowing him even a minute to return home to pack...

[Werbaer]

Worse than that. At the exact moment the High Priest learned of/got the prophecy, Durkon had just *already left his house* to go about his daily business, and thus would be expected to *return* to it later that day...
No. He was sleeping. The High Priest of Thor woke him up.

[CaDzilla]

I believe that the priest had been drinking when he made the plan

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I believe that the priest had been drinking when he made the plan

I don't think most dwarves are ever not drinking/drunk.

[Murk]

I don't think most dwarves are ever not drinking/drunk.

What do you think the extra saves against poison are for?

[Darth Paul]

"When he next returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all." The mistake was to misinterpret the word "home" as meaning "house", as in Durkon's personal home, rather than his Dwarven Homeland.

Odin is evidently no better at delivering unambiguous prophecies than any other god. This leads to a classic Prophecy Twist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphecyTwist), and the Priest of Odin sets off a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfFulfillingProphecy). All because of an ambiguous noun. Durkon could have spent the rest of his life in the Dwarven lands, and so long as he never left them, there was no danger of the prophecy being fulfilled.

[martianmister]

there are planty of way to remove something forever.

http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/images/29450.jpg

[CaDzilla]

I don't think most dwarves are ever not drinking/drunk.

And that's why they attack trees

[grandpheonix]

http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/images/29450.jpg

Amen to that. Seems a bit shady to me!

[ootsforum]

They exiled him because they misinterpreted the prophecy. They took it to mean that Durkon would bring death and destruction if he left *his own house* and then returned to it
I mean, we don't know that that's not the case. It hasn't come to pass yet.
I mean it probably is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and it probably wouldn't have come true had the High Priest of Odin not banished him after hearing it, but it still could be that returning to his house is what brings death and destruction to them. We don't know, it hasn't happened yet.

[Macros]

I don't think they were THAT literal. The high priest of Thor seemed to interpret it as "if Durkon leaves *insert Dwarven town name here* and comes back", when he explained himself to the... brewer? or something.

I used to think it would have been better if they simply TOLD Durkon why they sent him away. In the end though, it wouldn't have made any difference, given the recent turn of events.

[littlebum2002]

Personally, I think it has to do with the fact that THE definitive trope in fiction involving prophets or fortune tellers or psychics (or time travelers) is

"ZOMG! we have just received a dire prophecy! Let's do all we can to try and avoid it, which is going to end up being the event that allows it to happen in the first place, thus implying that if we had done nothing the prophecy would not have come true"

It also works with time travel. Remember, the only reason Fry's "grandpa" died was because Fry tried do hard to save his life.

[Macros]

Well, in this case, I think it's more along the lines of "do whatever you want, it'll happen anyway". Perhaps not exactly in the same way, but still.

[Bulldog Psion]

"ZOMG! we have just received a dire prophecy! Let's do all we can to try and avoid it, which is going to end up being the event that allows it to happen in the first place, thus implying that if we had done nothing the prophecy would not have come true"

That, after all, is the basis for the plot of the entire Star Wars prequel trilogy. Multiple times over. :smalleek:

[Emperordaniel]

Well, in this case, I think it's more along the lines of "do whatever you want, it'll happen anyway". Perhaps not exactly in the same way, but still.

I once read something which sounded like that, the basic summary of which was "if [the prophecy] is true, then there's nothing you can do about it - and if it's not true, there's nothing you need to do about it".

[Peelee]

Personally, I think it has to do with the fact that THE definitive trope in fiction involving prophets or fortune tellers or psychics (or time travelers) is

"ZOMG! we have just received a dire prophecy! Let's do all we can to try and avoid it, which is going to end up being the event that allows it to happen in the first place, thus implying that if we had done nothing the prophecy would not have come true"

It also works with time travel. Remember, the only reason Fry's "grandpa" died was because Fry tried do hard to save his life.

To the best of my recollection, nothing was mentioned about the lifespan of Fry's "grandpa" until he died when Fry went back in time. He could have been Fry's legitimate grandfather, then Fry intervened, did the nasty in the pasty, became his own grandfather. While this seems overly ridiculous at first, keep in mind we are discussing a scenario in which a man is capable of fathering his own father who in turn fathers him. Comparatively, I don't think it's too much of a stretch.

This falls in with the Back to the Future version of time travel, in which past alterations generate further future alterations - George turned from pathetic to normal and successful after Marty's interference (though why George never questioned why one of his sons turned out to look exactly like a mutual friend of him and his wife, especially when his wife had a blatant crush on him, was never explored, sadly).

Take this as opposed to the Harry Potter form of time travel, in which there is a time loop - Harry gets hit by a rock in the back of his head, for instance, which means that future Hermione threw the rock when she went back, but they later take the place of their future selves, which means there is no origin in which Harry never got hit by the rock, the hippogriff was executed, etc. That timeline exists in an infinite loop. This is the proper "time travel" structure which would be comparable to the "we did stuff that made the prophecy come true" type prophecy.


That, after all, is the basis for the plot of the entire Star Wars prequel trilogy. Multiple times over. :smalleek:

[littlebum2002]

I wasn't trying to comment on whether or not he changed the past. I'm just saying that, in the vast majority of stories, if someone is actively trying to avoid a prophecy, or trying to keep something happening in the future, you can be pretty certain that the actions they take to accomplish that will almost certainly cause the future event to happen.

So I think Rich was just playing on that. On that note, though, I think if the prophecy wasn't made, Durkon never would have left and gotten vamped.

[Peelee]

I wasn't trying to comment on whether or not he changed the past. I'm just saying that, in the vast majority of stories, if someone is actively trying to avoid a prophecy, or trying to keep something happening in the future, you can be pretty certain that the actions they take to accomplish that will almost certainly cause the future event to happen.

So I think Rich was just playing on that. On that note, though, I think if the prophecy wasn't made, Durkon never would have left and gotten vamped.

Ahhh. I completely agree, then. Also, sorry - I take my time travel seriously.

[Darth Paul]

Ahhh. I completely agree, then. Also, sorry - I take my time travel seriously.

Time travel is a different animal from prophecy, though, and I don't think anyone would argue differently- but they have a lot in common as you both point out.

When it comes to time travel, I wonder things like, "If Superman has the ability to make the planet spin backwards and reverse Time itself whenever something upsets him (as seen in the film), then why doesn't he just do that all the time?" Why do people/organizations with reliable time travel not just use it in increments of 1 hour, so they can go back, fix what happened just now, and then we can all go on our merry ways, with the disaster averted? Sure would be nice to have in Real Life at many points in recent history...

[Peelee]

Time travel is a different animal from prophecy, though, and I don't think anyone would argue differently- but they have a lot in common as you both point out.

When it comes to time travel, I wonder things like, "If Superman has the ability to make the planet spin backwards and reverse Time itself whenever something upsets him (as seen in the film), then why doesn't he just do that all the time?" Why do people/organizations with reliable time travel not just use it in increments of 1 hour, so they can go back, fix what happened just now, and then we can all go on our merry ways, with the disaster averted? Sure would be nice to have in Real Life at many points in recent history...

Point 1: When discussing time travel, the Superman movie is not to be mentioned in polite company.

Point 2: Such a time machine would have to be highly efficient, such as the Harry Potter Time-Turner or Bill and Ted's phone booth. The DeLorean, for instance, required a vast amount of electrical power to jump the time stream, and thus (until a Mr. Fusion was involved, at least) was not for frivolous use.

Point 3: Have you never played Red Alert 1 or 2, man? Altering major points in history is dangerous! As for smaller bits, the Harry Potter book explored that somewhat, though i believe About Time managed it much better, in my opinion. "Fixing" things is not always as simple as might first appear.

Point 3a: Another hitch in the "insta-fix" philosophy is long-term effects that cannot be taken into the equation, since they are still unknown variables so soon after a given event. The film Next inadvertently manages a fairly good example of this, even if the approach is from the other end; seeing 2 minutes ahead into possible futures is incredibly useful, but it lacks the ability to predict what eventual fallout may occur because of given actions made to influence the future.

Point 4: We also don't mention Red Alert 3.

[mikeejimbo]

Although I hate to get off the topic of Time Travel, I don't think they misinterpreted the prophecy so much as they didn't know how strictly to interpret it and were erring on the safe side.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Although I hate to get off the topic of Time Travel, I don't think they misinterpreted the prophecy so much as they didn't know how strictly to interpret it and were erring on the safe side.

This is what I thought too. Although in their discussion they seem to view home as "his house", they effectively banned him from ever returning to the Dwarven Lands, period.

[factotum]

This is what I thought too. Although in their discussion they seem to view home as "his house", they effectively banned him from ever returning to the Dwarven Lands, period.

But if they'd interpreted the prophecy as "returning home to Dwarven lands", ensuring he never left them in the first place would have been a far better approach--and probably just as likely to work, given Durkon's known preferences. Heck, just ship him a sample of the best beer brewed in Human lands and I'm sure he would never have gone there in his life!

[littlebum2002]

Point 1: When discussing time travel, the Superman movie is not to be mentioned in polite company.

Point 2: Such a time machine would have to be highly efficient, such as the Harry Potter Time-Turner or Bill and Ted's phone booth. The DeLorean, for instance, required a vast amount of electrical power to jump the time stream, and thus (until a Mr. Fusion was involved, at least) was not for frivolous use.

Point 3: Have you never played Red Alert 1 or 2, man? Altering major points in history is dangerous! As for smaller bits, the Harry Potter book explored that somewhat, though i believe About Time managed it much better, in my opinion. "Fixing" things is not always as simple as might first appear.

Point 3a: Another hitch in the "insta-fix" philosophy is long-term effects that cannot be taken into the equation, since they are still unknown variables so soon after a given event. The film Next inadvertently manages a fairly good example of this, even if the approach is from the other end; seeing 2 minutes ahead into possible futures is incredibly useful, but it lacks the ability to predict what eventual fallout may occur because of given actions made to influence the future.

Point 4: We also don't mention Red Alert 3.

Wow, you REALLY do take your time travel seriously.

And, IMHO, the DeLorean is the only one of those examples which is "plausible" (at least in their own universes), because it seems odd that the Harry Potter universe had this amazing invention that could have saved countless lives and used it in only one book I mean year.

(That's why I like the Methods of Rationality so much. He actually uses all the resources which are available to him, and it's funny to see how surprised the rest of the wizards are to this. I never realized before reading that how similar the Harry Potter wizards were to the Discworld wizards)

[Quild]

If Durkon is so Lawful that he can accept never to return if not summoned by HPoT, they should have told him why he was exiled. Tell him it is to save the Dwarven Lands, and there you know you're not taking any risk. Or less at least. Because Lawful doesn't mean stupid and Durkon could have had reasons to come back, especially after learning the death of the HPoT.

But anyway, they were right to exile him. While doing nothing was technically a non-decision (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3461#comic) it would have been the wrong action.
Keeping him captive would have been a risk. Typically the kind of decision that makes a prophecy fulfills itself (escape + mad = death and destruction)
Killing him would have been very evil.



Wow, you REALLY do take your time travel seriously.

And, IMHO, the DeLorean is the only one of those examples which is "plausible" (at least in their own universes), because it seems odd that the Harry Potter universe had this amazing invention that could have saved countless lives and used it in only one book I mean year.

Haven't read the book but I seem to remember there's an explanation for that. Too dangerous or something like that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But if they'd interpreted the prophecy as "returning home to Dwarven lands", ensuring he never left them in the first place would have been a far better approach--and probably just as likely to work, given Durkon's known preferences. Heck, just ship him a sample of the best beer brewed in Human lands and I'm sure he would never have gone there in his life!

I think they were trying to cover for either. Personally, I think it would have better for them to explain things to Durkon and either get him to stay in his home (or homeland) or have him know why he was being exiled, so I don't think they route they chose was the best one in any scenario.

[Peelee]

Wow, you REALLY do take your time travel seriously.
What can I say? I like time travel.


And, IMHO, the DeLorean is the only one of those examples which is "plausible" (at least in their own universes), because it seems odd that the Harry Potter universe had this amazing invention that could have saved countless lives and used it in only one book I mean year.
Well, to "defend" the Harry Potter series, a lot of stuff only happened in one book. I mean, his first year, points are given and taken often, and the winner of the House Cup is a huge thing, and.....kinda fizzles out forever after that. That's just how those books are written. Things matter one year, and then don't forever after.

That legitimate grip aside, though, I have issues with the Harry Potter/Back to the Future belief of all sorts of doom getting thrown down if paths cross. There was never any real reasons stated other than "bytheway don't let this specific instance happen or that'll mess up everything!" Especially if both versions of a person are knowledgeable about time travel, I see no reason why someone couldn't meet their own past self, especially if they are able to interact in their own time stream to begin with. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure was a good example of this, although that also funded the time loop ideology - in theory, a non-time loop version of time travel with a person interacting with themself would create instant memories in the future version while leaving complete free will to both. Actually, come to think of it, Doctor Who's Time Crash (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szuP0oBZX4g) illustrates this exact instance quite well.



(That's why I like the Methods of Rationality so much. He actually uses all the resources which are available to him, and it's funny to see how surprised the rest of the wizards are to this. I never realized before reading that how similar the Harry Potter wizards were to the Discworld wizards)

Hmmm. I'd like to read that. I liked the idea of Harry Potter, but was continuously confounded. Mostly by the fact that the main character barely ever actually does anything.

[littlebum2002]

What can I say? I like time travel.


Well, to "defend" the Harry Potter series, a lot of stuff only happened in one book. I mean, his first year, points are given and taken often, and the winner of the House Cup is a huge thing, and.....kinda fizzles out forever after that. That's just how those books are written. Things matter one year, and then don't forever after.

That legitimate grip aside, though, I have issues with the Harry Potter/Back to the Future belief of all sorts of doom getting thrown down if paths cross. There was never any real reasons stated other than "bytheway don't let this specific instance happen or that'll mess up everything!" Especially if both versions of a person are knowledgeable about time travel, I see no reason why someone couldn't meet their own past self, especially if they are able to interact in their own time stream to begin with. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure was a good example of this, although that also funded the time loop ideology - in theory, a non-time loop version of time travel with a person interacting with themself would create instant memories in the future version while leaving complete free will to both. Actually, come to think of it, Doctor Who's Time Crash (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szuP0oBZX4g) illustrates this exact instance quite well.




Hmmm. I'd like to read that. I liked the idea of Harry Potter, but was continuously confounded. Mostly by the fact that the main character barely ever actually does anything.

The Methods of Rationality is the Harry Potter story if Aunt Petunia had married a scientist instead of Vernon Dursley. So Harry ends up learning a LOT about science, and subjects most of the magical world to the scientific method, with interesting results. It started off as a "Harry Potter, but with one change" fan fiction, but the author quickly realized how boring that would be and it now exists in its own universe.

It also follows the rules of "you can't meet your past self", but Harry exploits this in very interesting ways. There is a LOT of time-travel in the story (as much as you would expect in a world in which time travel is so easy)

And you'll particularly love the experiment where he tries to fool the time turner.

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
(https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Methods-of-Rationality)
And, in case you don't like it, because a lot of people don't, here is the chapter where he tries to "mess with time"
Do not mess with time (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/17/Harry-Potter-and-the-Methods-of-Rationality)

[factotum]

Personally, I think it would have better for them to explain things to Durkon and either get him to stay in his home (or homeland) or have him know why he was being exiled, so I don't think they route they chose was the best one in any scenario.

Oh, unquestionably. There is the point to be made, though, that if they HAD explained it all to Durkon he would have known not to bother sending a message back to Dwarven lands asking to return, so we'd never have got Miko trapped in Xykon's moderately-escapable forcecage and having to escape using the brandy she was bringing back for Lord Shojo...

[Codyage]

Have they addressed Durkon coming home? The order knows he can't go home. If they know why, I do not remember. But doesn't it seem that the real Durkon would speak up about going back to his home land because of his duty? Or is the gate separate from the Dwarven Lands?

Surely someone in the Order might ask Durkon about going back to his own home, after being gone for so long. Unless of course, the gate isn't by the Dwarven lands in the first place.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oh, unquestionably. There is the point to be made, though, that if they HAD explained it all to Durkon he would have known not to bother sending a message back to Dwarven lands asking to return, so we'd never have got Miko trapped in Xykon's moderately-escapable forcecage and having to escape using the brandy she was bringing back for Lord Shojo...
Well, the whole story kind of needs Durkon to leave home. I don't mind the dwarves making the decision they did, though.

Have they addressed Durkon coming home? The order knows he can't go home. If they know why, I do not remember. But doesn't it seem that the real Durkon would speak up about going back to his home land because of his duty? Or is the gate separate from the Dwarven Lands?

Surely someone in the Order might ask Durkon about going back to his own home, after being gone for so long. Unless of course, the gate isn't by the Dwarven lands in the first place.

The Order (including Durkon) doesn't know the reasons for exile. Currently, they are headed for Tinkertown and then to the North, not necessarily the Dwarven Lands.

[factotum]

I'm sure the Order will consider Durkon breaking his exile (should that be required) to be a lesser crime than letting Xykon have the final Gate opposed only by Serini's gate defences--they've already seen three times over that relying on the Scribble's defences does not work. In fact, I think Durkon himself would agree, even if he wasn't currently being impersonated by an evil spirit.

[Quild]

Have they addressed Durkon coming home? The order knows he can't go home. If they know why, I do not remember. But doesn't it seem that the real Durkon would speak up about going back to his home land because of his duty? Or is the gate separate from the Dwarven Lands?

Surely someone in the Order might ask Durkon about going back to his own home, after being gone for so long. Unless of course, the gate isn't by the Dwarven lands in the first place.

Oh, right. I assumed the Order didn't know, but since they are aware about his question to the oracle, they must know that returning home is not something as easy as wanting to. Plus, Roy and Durkon have travelled together before the creation of the order.

Trouble is that they may consider (even Roy) that this "Don't return until you are asked to" is stupid and can totally be broke for this major case. Anyone can figure that sometimes, strictly following an order may not match with what was asked at first.

For example, as a child and after we made some painting, the class was asked to put in the trash everything that was on the ground. Someone's pullover had fallen on the ground while doing so. I put it in the trash. First time I remember being grounded!

[Anarion]

The eventual answer to this question is because the myth of Perseus was a really good story.