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BranMan
2014-08-22, 01:22 PM
If a creature on a leash were to turn invisible, (for example, if I casted invisibility on a leashed dog, wearing collar), what would be visible and non-visible? The collar would probably stay invisible, as it is being worn by the creature, but if someone is holding the leash, would it be invisible as well?

QuickLyRaiNbow
2014-08-22, 01:33 PM
I would argue that the leash stays visible, as

If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too.

The collar would seem to be carried by the dog in the same way that a shirt is carried by a person. It's tough to argue that the leash is carried or controlled by the dog, though. In this scenario, if you were to cast invis on yourself, I'd say that the leash would be come invisible, but the collar on the dog doesn't.

Strigon
2014-08-22, 03:14 PM
The collar would seem to be carried by the dog in the same way that a shirt is carried by a person. It's tough to argue that the leash is carried or controlled by the dog, though. In this scenario, if you were to cast invis on yourself, I'd say that the leash would be come invisible, but the collar on the dog doesn't.

But if one were to let go of the leash, I could certainly see it being argued that the dog is carrying a leash.
It could go either way, but in any circumstance, the person is visible.

Jay R
2014-08-22, 04:53 PM
An attack cancels invisibility, at least in the old-school games I play. As soon as the leash pulls in any direction, even a very slight pull, the invisibility is gone. And that happens pretty much continually, so I don't think this can happen.

bjoern
2014-08-22, 07:13 PM
In the same way that a shirt is invisible on a person and a collar is invisible on dog, a sword is invisible if carried in the hand of a human as it walks. I would say treat the leash like a sword and have it be invisible. But not the person holding the leash.

Now if it was the person being turned invisible, I'd say the leash would be invisible again but not the collar or the dog.

QuickLyRaiNbow
2014-08-22, 08:34 PM
An attack cancels invisibility, at least in the old-school games I play. As soon as the leash pulls in any direction, even a very slight pull, the invisibility is gone. And that happens pretty much continually, so I don't think this can happen.

Attacks still cancel invisibility in 3.5, but I don't think a tug on a leash is an attack.


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

So it's especially not true if the dog and the person holding the leash don't have an adversarial relationship. Maybe a pull on a leash could be considered an attack if the dog and the human were actively hostile to one another, but absent that I don't see any reason it'd break invis.

Jay R
2014-08-24, 09:12 AM
Attacks still cancel invisibility in 3.5, but I don't think a tug on a leash is an attack.

So it's especially not true if the dog and the person holding the leash don't have an adversarial relationship. Maybe a pull on a leash could be considered an attack if the dog and the human were actively hostile to one another, but absent that I don't see any reason it'd break invis.

You've convinced me that incidental tugs won't break the spell.

But if a bull rush, which only attempts to move somebody, is an attack, then so is an intentional tug on a leash, for the same reason.

Khedrac
2014-08-24, 02:26 PM
Which System? This is the generic roleplaying forum, all questions that are system specific (which this undoubtably has to be) go in the relevant sub-forum.

QuickLyRaiNbow
2014-08-24, 02:58 PM
You've convinced me that incidental tugs won't break the spell.

But if a bull rush, which only attempts to move somebody, is an attack, then so is an intentional tug on a leash, for the same reason.

A bull rush attempts to move someone against their will. Assuming the dog and the human are allies or enjoy some other cordial relationship, an intentional tug on a leash would be giving direction. Like, hey, we're going over here now; I'm tugging the leash because I don't want to make noise and you can't see me, Mr. Dog. If the person with the leash is dragging the dog, which doesn't want to move but is being forced to, then yeah, that seems like it'd break invis.

Anxe
2014-08-24, 03:37 PM
My group has always gone with any object carried by the target that extends way beyond them is not rendered invisible. Immense spears, ropes, and leashes. By RAW, the dog is not carrying the leash unless it holds the leash in its teeth. The leash is visible. The collar is invisible as it is worn.

Jay R
2014-08-25, 07:55 AM
A bull rush attempts to move someone against their will. Assuming the dog and the human are allies or enjoy some other cordial relationship, an intentional tug on a leash would be giving direction. Like, hey, we're going over here now; I'm tugging the leash because I don't want to make noise and you can't see me, Mr. Dog. If the person with the leash is dragging the dog, which doesn't want to move but is being forced to, then yeah, that seems like it'd break invis.

There is a legitimate judgement call for the DM about how much force it takes before it counts as "being forced to"? The fact of the leash at all is to force the dog to go where the person wants him to go.

Mastikator
2014-08-25, 09:19 AM
In WoD a nova on a leash using invisibility would become "undetectable to sight", since the leash would be a dead give-away it should also become invisible, as well as whatever thing is connecting the leash to the wall or floor. But the wall or floor does not, neither does anyone holding the leash.

In Exalted there's Mirror of Bending Light which would make the local area appear empty, making the dog and the leash and potentially whatever the leash is connected to invisible, as well as anybody holding the leash. As long as you're outside the area and don't have supernatural vision.

QuickLyRaiNbow
2014-08-25, 12:28 PM
There is a legitimate judgement call for the DM about how much force it takes before it counts as "being forced to"? The fact of the leash at all is to force the dog to go where the person wants him to go.

I don't think that's quite true, though we're talking about leash mechanics rather than spell mechanics now. I'll agree with you that it's going to be a DM's call (and probably specific to an individual case).

Synar
2014-08-26, 06:47 PM
If the dog is the one being forced, how is he attacking anyone?

QuickLyRaiNbow
2014-08-26, 11:37 PM
I think the consensus is that if the dog is invis, the leash isn't. And if the person is invis, the leash is too. So the question is whether tugging a leash would break invis.

Anxe
2014-08-27, 09:02 AM
Well a leash is similar to the net weapon. They both restrict movement within a certain radius. Holding onto a net is an opposed strength check. Do opposed strength checks break invisibility? I'm not finding anything that says so in the SRD, but I certainly think so. Seems if the dog was actually trying to break free from the leash that it would end invisibility on the dog. If the leash holder was invisible then they too would break invisibility with the strength check.

Joe the Rat
2014-08-27, 09:41 AM
No, I think it's pretty well established that the collar and leash are visible on an invisible dog. Forty-odd years of stupid sight gags can't be wrong. :biggrin:


Re:tugging. Very much the province of GM call, unless your ruleset has very specific details. Consider though that a simple pull is not a bull-rush or trip - it's communication. Your canine companion is telling you "I want to go over here" or "we should walk this way so you don't get hit by traffic" or "I say, I think I smell a new message on the post over there, and I need to find out who's commented and contribute my own clever rejoinder. Please don't try and pull me away until I'm done, it ruins my punctuation."

Where you get into attacks is with the Beethoven-style body-sled pull. In which case I'm inclined to leave invisibility in place, because while a wizard being pulled through Grimtooth's Trap Showroom and Wedding Cake Competition by a large canine is funny, a wizard being pulled through Grimtooth's Trap Showroom and Wedding Cake Competition by an empty leash is hilarious.

bjoern
2014-08-27, 09:43 AM
Well a leash is similar to the net weapon. They both restrict movement within a certain radius. Holding onto a net is an opposed strength check. Do opposed strength checks break invisibility? I'm not finding anything that says so in the SRD, but I certainly think so. Seems if the dog was actually trying to break free from the leash that it would end invisibility on the dog. If the leash holder was invisible then they too would break invisibility with the strength check.

An opposed strength check is not an attack and its not causing harm. If you threw a net at someone then that is an attack. If you threw the net, then turned*invisible, you would remain invisible until you made an attack again.

gom jabbarwocky
2014-08-28, 10:04 PM
Where you get into attacks is with the Beethoven-style body-sled pull. In which case I'm inclined to leave invisibility in place, because while a wizard being pulled through Grimtooth's Trap Showroom and Wedding Cake Competition by a large canine is funny, a wizard being pulled through Grimtooth's Trap Showroom and Wedding Cake Competition by an empty leash is hilarious.

The cursed leash which is pulled by an invisible, implacable canine which is guaranteed to lead you straight into hitting every single trap in the room sounds exactly like something that would actually be in a Grimtooth book.:belkar:

Jay R
2014-08-29, 07:57 AM
So what is the tactical value for turning invisible when a leash will still show the enemy where to aim?

bjoern
2014-08-29, 09:34 AM
So what is the tactical value for turning invisible when a leash will still show the enemy where to aim?

Invisible isn't the same as hidden.

The only thing that being invisible grants you is making the enemy roll a miss chance to hit. They can still make listen checks to hear you, animals with scent know where you are, they cab make spot checks to see disturbances consistent with someone being there(water puddles, footsteps in dirt, etc.)

Having the leash visible would allow them to make a spot check to see it so they could attack the right square. They still have a 50% miss chance though.

That being said, I'd rule the lease as invisible also , since its gear worn by the dog. If I was wearing a hat and turned invisible, the hat would be invisible. If my hat had a feather or tassle attached to it when I turned invisible, it would be invisible also since its still worn.

QuickLyRaiNbow
2014-08-29, 01:42 PM
The leash is attached to the dog, but unless there's nothing on the other end I wouldn't say it's worn by the dog. The collar, yes. But the leash isn't ever really in the dog's control, it's in the person's.

rainwise
2014-09-02, 02:06 AM
Absolutely have to agree with all those who said that the leash would turn invisible. The leash is basically part of the collar, wich is basically dog clothing. And everyone knows clothing turns invisible. (I guess.)

Don't listen to those toy-sellers who try and tell you that the leash stays visible while the dog is transparent.

souridealist
2014-09-02, 06:02 PM
I'm on team "the leash turns invisible" for two reasons. One: the leash is more firmly attached to the dog (via clip or tie) than to the human (held in the hand). Two: turning the leash invisible opens up a much broader range of entertaining possibilities, and this is, after all, a game.

As far as the leash-tugs breaking invisibility: a standard tug on a leash is the equivalent of tugging a rein on a horse. It is, as others have said, a point of communication. Tugging a rein is not an attack, or a strength check; grabbing your friend's sleeve to get their attention is not an attack. Of course, if you tug the leash and your dog immediately braces all four feet, lowers her head, and generally communicates OH NO I'M NOT in doggy language, now you've broken invisibility. Of course, all of this is assuming that we aren't casting Greater Invisibility or the setting's equivalent. Now that could get amusing.