The rogue!

[Val666]

I just posted another thread about a fist guy but one of my players wants to play a rogue-like character
not being an actual...rogue. A friend of mine told me Factotum was better than Rogue in any aspect and
I want to know your ideas about a roguish character! Help me please D; Im the DM so just throw stuff

[Urpriest]

Factotum is good, but there are a lot of poorly written rules in it so you'll need to sort those out if you want to make it playable. Psychic Rogue is another nice rogue-replacement, if you're willing to add some psionics to the mix. Beguiler is great at imitating a rogue on the skills and sneakiness level, replacing the melee focus of sneak attack with enchantment and illusion-focused casting, while Swordsage is the opposite, being a less skill- and more murder- focused alternative. There are a few other fun "rogue but X" classes, but those are the top contenders.

[Val666]

Uhmm..interesting, never thought about the Psychic Rogue. The Beguiler is a non go in this case because x reasons. Swordsage and Factotum are my best options here. Maybe a combination? Factotum X + Swordsage X sounds good. What about Factotum + Warblade? more int synergy but less roguish style. I can always change 1 or 2 disciplines from warblade to give Shadow Hand.

[Zaq]

What makes a "roguish" character to you? Sneakiness? Face abilities? Acrobatics? Sneak Attack? Trapmonkey skills? Something else?

The Rogue is probably the best character if you want all of those things at once, though of course it's not the only option. If you're willing to drop the face skills, Scouts are a lot of fun, and I find them to be a lot more survivable than Rogues are. (The AC from Skirmish makes a real difference at lower levels, and generally not sticking around to receive full attacks makes a difference at higher levels, though you've gotta get some mobility tricks if you want your own full attacks.)

But really, until we pin down what it means to you to be a Rogue-style character, it's hard to say what direction to go. What does your friend want out of the character, and why don't they like the actual Rogue class?

[Val666]

But really, until we pin down what it means to you to be a Rogue-style character, it's hard to say what direction to go. What does your friend want out of the character, and why don't they like the actual Rogue class?

Okey. What is a rogue to me? a sneaky guy who can be the actual skill monkey but also backstab you
really hard :v. My friend wants to play a guy who can deal a very good amount of damage and also have
out of combat stuff (like the teleport maneuvers and stuff) He doesn't want to play thr ROGUE because
he thinks the other rogue-like classes are better. Anyway he will say NO to any build focusing on rogue unless its something very...outstanding. He doesn't like Scout either e.e

[Dread_Head]

Uhmm..interesting, never thought about the Psychic Rogue. The Beguiler is a non go in this case because x reasons. Swordsage and Factotum are my best options here. Maybe a combination? Factotum X + Swordsage X sounds good. What about Factotum + Warblade? more int synergy but less roguish style. I can always change 1 or 2 disciplines from warblade to give Shadow Hand.

Factotum / Swordsage is a very good multiclass build, you probably want at least 8 levels in Factotum for Cunning Surge and then the rest in Swordsage afterwards for higher level manoeuvres. Warblade can work but would lead to a more combat focused character due to the nature of their manoeuvres and the less skill points. If you give Warblade Shadow Hand then it would be more suitable for the character though it might have to be up to the players preference which to choose. You could even dip two levels of Warblade on a Factotum / Swordsage character later on for some higher level manouvres for more combat abilities.

[Val666]

Factotum / Swordsage is a very good multiclass build, you probably want at least 8 levels in Factotum for Cunning Surge and then the rest in Swordsage afterwards for higher level manoeuvres. Warblade can work but would lead to a more combat focused character due to the nature of their manoeuvres and the less skill points. If you give Warblade Shadow Hand then it would be more suitable for the character though it might have to be up to the players preference which to choose. You could even dip two levels of Warblade on a Factotum / Swordsage character later on for some higher level manouvres for more combat abilities.

He's going the Warblade+Factotum with Shadow Hand way. Which feats would you recomend for the builld? :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Dread_Head]

Knowledge Devotion, maybe Travel Devotion, Able learner to keep skills up through Warblade, Weapon Finesse & Shadow Blade if going Dex route, Power Attack if going strength. Factotums can make good archers in which case you want the archery feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot etc). If going for cheesy dragon magazine feats then Faerie Mysteries Initiate & Keen Intellect are golden on a Factotum. Maybe something like Improved Trip to do something more during combat. Craven if you dip a level of a sneak attack granting class. Darkstalker if you want to be able to do stealthy against most enemies.

Edit: Oh and Font of Inspiration if you want more inspiration points.

[Val666]

Knowledge Devotion, maybe Travel Devotion, Able learner to keep skills up through Warblade, Weapon Finesse & Shadow Blade if going Dex route, Power Attack if going strength. Factotums can make good archers in which case you want the archery feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot etc). If going for cheesy dragon magazine feats then Faerie Mysteries Initiate & Keen Intellect are golden on a Factotum. Maybe something like Improved Trip to do something more during combat. Craven if you dip a level of a sneak attack granting class. Darkstalker if you want to be able to do stealthy against most enemies.

Edit: Oh and Font of Inspiration if you want more inspiration points.

Thank you very much sir!

[bekeleven]

Darkstalker lets you use your hide check to not be autospotted by things like blindsense. It's basically feat tax for a sneaker.

Keen intellect lets you apply your int bonus to will saves, survival, spot, heal, and sense motive. Dump wiz, be sad that you're deaf. (Edit: not actually a dragon mag feat, although the official 3.5 update was in a dragon mag.)

Font of inspiration, of course.

If your GM lets you use it, Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Dr319?) gives you int to HP instead of Con.

Kung-Fu Genius (or Carmendine Monk if that's not available) let you use int for monk abilities. 1 feat + monk's belt = easy int to AC, stacks with cunning defense.

Get int, get hype.

[Emperor Tippy]

Kung-Fu Genius (or Carmendine Monk if that's not available) let you use int for monk abilities. 1 feat + monk's belt = easy int to AC, stacks with cunning defense.

That doesn't work. A Monk's Belt doesn't give you the Monk AC class feature and KFG only replaces Wis with Int for Monk special abilities.

[Val666]

Oh my god...Tippy's in my thread...im going to cry

[bekeleven]

That doesn't work. A Monk's Belt doesn't give you the Monk AC class feature and KFG only replaces Wis with Int for Monk special abilities.


If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.


You use your Intelligence modifier rather than Wisdom for all monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom.
Strongly disagree. You gain the ability that functions just like the AC bonus.

[Emperor Tippy]

Strongly disagree. You gain the ability that functions just like the AC bonus.

Note the "functions just like" part in the Belt description. It provides a bonus identical to what the Monk gets but the belt does not give you a Monk special ability.

[bekeleven]

So it doesn't provide me int to AC, it's just identical to something that provides me int to AC? I can't even tell which of us is being overly literal anymore.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, what do you want your roguish character to do? The answers can include scouting (so a Scout would be a good fit), dealing with traps, using lots of skills, or sneak attacking.

One possibility is a Kobold Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), with the Trickery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#trickeryDomain) and Kobold (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) domains. You'll have many of the Rogue class skills, a reasonable number (6 + INT mod) of skill points, and the ability to deal with traps without even needing to cast Find Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm) (though that spell will still help).

If you want to pick up sneak attack, you can do that too; it's just a little complicated, requiring 3 feats:

Martial Study (some Shadow Hand maneuver, such as Cloak of Deception)
Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357, page 86)

Assassin's Stance gives you +2d6 sneak attack. Sacred Outlaw lets you stack your (nonexistent) Rogue and Cleric levels for sneak attack progression; it requires sneak attack +2d6 and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. So you'll have sneak attack as a combined (Cleric + Rogue) class ability, plus an additional +2d6.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, Cleric works. Maybe add Darkstalker to that? Or ignore Sneak attack, it isn't like you need it. Cause. You know. Cleric.

Anyway, there are lots of ways to do cleric as rogue, with some trickiness!

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

[oldkingkoal]

A gnome with the kobold domain?
Gavin you got some e'splainin to do. Lol

[Curmudgeon]

A gnome with the kobold domain?
Gavin you got some e'splainin to do. Lol
For those of you who don't speak Ricky Ricardo, this means:
If the typical worshipers of a deity include the members of a race, a cleric must be of the indicated race to choose that deity as his own. (The god may have occasional worshipers of other races, but not clerics.)

[Chronos]

Personally, my preferred sneaky cleric build would be human ninja 1/cloistered cleric 19, with Able Learner. Any sneaky class (rogue, factotum, etc.) would work in place of ninja, but ninja has some Wis synergy.

[oldkingkoal]

Ah, right, old reference is old.
I was actually more thinking of the whole; in every Dnd setting I know of, gnomes and kobold's have a downright fervent blood feud, thing. In fact, the Holy symbol of Kurtalmak (the kobold deity and the only one I know of that grants the kobold domain.) is a gnomes skull.
It just struck me as funny is all.

[Gavinfoxx]

This gnome doesn't worship kobold. Remember, she worships the archetype of traps and 'the game' of security. Read more closely, including the flavor, and how she names that domain when mentioning it in character. She simply thinks of kobolds as skilled creators of traps, not normal to her race, and does NOT follow kurtulmak.

[Svata]

Ah, right, old reference is old.
I was actually more thinking of the whole; in every Dnd setting I know of, gnomes and kobold's have a downright fervent blood feud, thing. In fact, the Holy symbol of Kurtalmak (the kobold deity and the only one I know of that grants the kobold domain.) is a gnomes skull.
It just struck me as funny is all.

Not just a gnome's skull, but a gnome's skull with a spike driven through it.


Also, I know he's doing Factotum/Warblade, but I'm the local Psychic Rogue fan so, have a link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). Since it cqn be har to find nowadays, because of WotC reshuffling the site for 5e.