[3.5] Best Threat Range?

[Stella]

What is the best Threat Range which can be achieved?

I looked for a master list of weapons, but it seems as though I've got to pour through all the books/PDFs in order to find weapon lists. The best Threat Range I've seen so far has been 18-20.

Things which I've found which modify Threat Range:

Keen - Weapon Enchantment
Doubles Threat Range, can't stack with anything else. Piercing or Slashing only.

Improved Critical - Feat (+8 BAB prerequisite)
Doubles Threat Range. No stacking.

Keen Edge - Sor/Wiz 3
(Also Psion/wilder 3, psychic warrior 3)
Doubles Threat Range. Piercing or Slashing only. No stacking, no natural weapons.

Duodimensional Claw - Psychic Warrior 3
Increases Threat Range from 20 to 19-20. Claw only, can't stack with anything else.


So far the best Threat Range appears to be 15-20, using a Piercing or Slashing weapon and any one of the things I listed above except for Duodimensional Claw. This gives a 30% chance to threaten a critical, which is probably the reason that all of these effects will not stack with any other. Even a single stack would move an 18-20 Threat Range to 12-20...

Are there weapons with a greater base Threat Range? Are there feats/spells/enchantments/other which I've missed which improve Threat Range?

[bjoern]

Not that I know of . Your best bet is a keen scimitar 15-20. I feel that the critical nerf was unnecessary . I mean martial types have it hard enough already.

[Slipperychicken]

Disciple of Dispater (PrC, Book of Vile Darkness) can triple the threat range of an iron or steel weapon. It doesn't stack with Keen, but does stack with Improved Critical. Those two alone on an 18-20 weapon get you 9-20 (assuming that "D&D multiplication" applies to threat range increases, where two doublings is a tripling).

I recall hearing that one can get threat range 2-20 by stacking a bunch of this stuff.

[LurKing]

I believe you're correct about the best base threat range being 18-20. I never personally built a crit-fishing build, but my understanding is that they typically contain the following components.

Kaorti-ribbbon weapon, frequently a kukri. (x4 crits, 18-20 threat range)
Keen weapon property or Improved Critical feat (improved critical is better if the opportunity cost isn't too high)
Aptitude weapon property
Blood in the Water stance
Weapon Focus: Light Mace feat
Lightning Mace feat
class-based threat improvement

The last bit requires a bit more elaboration: I believe there's a Disciple of Dispater class from the Book of Vile Darkness (3.0, but pretty easy to update to 3.5) that has a class feature that triples threat range, and it explicitly stacks with Improved Critical. In D&D math, x2 x3 turns into x(1+(2-1+3-1))=x4. That would make your 18-20 threat range become 9-20. I believe there are a couple more weapon-oriented classes that grant something similar, but unfortunately I cannot recall the specifics.

[amalcon]

There are a handful of 3.0 edition class features that expand threat range and explicitly stack with Improved Critical (examples: Weapon Master, Disciple of Dispater). Depending on how they are updated, they may or may not continue to stack.

[Irk]

I've looked into this a whole lot, and the highest is 1-20, if you do it right.

Hero's Blade spell (doubles)
Psionic Weapons Master or Weapons Master (+2)
Improved Critical (doubles)
Disciple of Dispater 4 and 8 (doubles and triples)
Arcane Duelist 7 (doubles limited time)
Mythic exemplar 2 (+1 limited time)
Streetfighter Barbarian 7 (+1 while charging)

If you stack these in the correct order, you get a threat range that triggers on 1-20. If you take the feat Lightning Maces, you get infinite damage, as long as you can hit the opponent's AC (probably not very difficult). You don;t even need aptitude.

EDIT: The above describes it in 3.P. In 3.5 the highest is 9-20 with a human Psion 6/ Psychic weapons master 7/ street fighter barbarian 7 with a Hero's Blade continuous item while charging with an 18-20 weapon.

[KillianHawkeye]

Disciple of Dispater (PrC, Book of Vile Darkness) can triple the threat range of an iron or steel weapon. It doesn't stack with Keen, but does stack with Improved Critical. Those two alone on an 18-20 weapon get you 9-20 (assuming that "D&D multiplication" applies to threat range increases, where two doublings is a tripling).

I recall hearing that one can get threat range 2-20 by stacking a bunch of this stuff.


I believe you're correct about the best base threat range being 18-20. I never personally built a crit-fishing build, but my understanding is that they typically contain the following components.

Kaorti-ribbbon weapon, frequently a kukri. (x4 crits, 18-20 threat range)
Keen weapon property or Improved Critical feat (improved critical is better if the opportunity cost isn't too high)
Aptitude weapon property
Blood in the Water stance
Weapon Focus: Light Mace feat
Lightning Mace feat
class-based threat improvement

The last bit requires a bit more elaboration: I believe there's a Disciple of Dispater class from the Book of Vile Darkness (3.0, but pretty easy to update to 3.5) that has a class feature that triples threat range, and it explicitly stacks with Improved Critical. In D&D math, x2 x3 turns into x(1+(2-1+3-1))=x4. That would make your 18-20 threat range become 9-20. I believe there are a couple more weapon-oriented classes that grant something similar, but unfortunately I cannot recall the specifics.


There are a handful of 3.0 edition class features that expand threat range and explicitly stack with Improved Critical (examples: Weapon Master, Disciple of Dispater). Depending on how they are updated, they may or may not continue to stack.


I've looked into this a whole lot, and the highest is 1-20, if you do it right.

Hero's Blade spell (doubles)
Psionic Weapons Master or Weapons Master (+2)
Improved Critical (doubles)
Disciple of Dispater 4 and 8 (doubles and triples)
Arcane Duelist 7 (doubles limited time)
Mythic exemplar 2 (+1 limited time)
Streetfighter Barbarian 7 (+1 while charging)

If you stack these in the correct order, you get a threat range that triggers on 1-20. If you take the feat Lightning Maces, you get infinite damage, as long as you can hit the opponent's AC (probably not very difficult). You don;t even need aptitude.

EDIT: The above describes it in 3.P. In 3.5 the highest is 9-20 with a human Psion 6/ Psychic weapons master 7/ street fighter barbarian 7 with a Hero's Blade continuous item while charging with an 18-20 weapon.



Note that Disciple of Dispater, which most crit chance builds seem to rely on, is a 3.0 prestige class. Under 3.0 rules, crit chances stacked a lot more than in 3.5, which nerfed crit stacking immensely. IMO, any conversion of Disciple of Dispater for use in a 3.5 game should take into account the general change in the way crit chances work and should not stack with anything.

Without including un-updated 3.0 material, the best critical threat range achievable should be 15-20, which to be honest is damn good and doesn't really need to be improved upon.

[nyjastul69]

I've looked into this a whole lot, and the highest is 1-20, if you do it right. ...

This is a nit pick but; do any of those abilities allow for actually hitting on a natural 1? If not, then the threat range would be 2-20 because you actually have to hit with the weapon before you can threaten a critical.

[bjoern]

This is a nit pick but; do any of those abilities allow for actually hitting on a natural 1? If not, then the threat range would be 2-20 because you actually have to hit with the weapon before you can threaten a critical.

Well, in that situation the roll of a natural one would be two things at once.

1.automatic miss
2. Critical threat (which is an auto hit even on a failed confirmation)

So these two things contradict each other completely. Not sure how it would work out.
Flip a coin and go from there?

[nyjastul69]

Well, in that situation the roll of a natural one would be two things at once.

1.automatic miss
2. Critical threat (which is an auto hit even on a failed confirmation)

So these two things contradict each other completely. Not sure how it would work out.
Flip a coin and go from there?

Is point number 2 a pathfinder thing? In 3.5 that's not how critical threat ranges work. If you threaten on 15-20 and need a 17 to hit rolling a 15 or 16 is a miss.

[Irk]

This is a nit pick but; do any of those abilities allow for actually hitting on a natural 1? If not, then the threat range would be 2-20 because you actually have to hit with the weapon before you can threaten a critical.
Not nitpicking at all, that's a good point. There is a feat somewhere that lets you treat a natural 1 as a natural 20 1/day, though, so that'd fix it.


Without including un-updated 3.0 material, the best critical threat range achievable should be 15-20, which to be honest is damn good and doesn't really need to be improved upon.
It's 9-20 with a Human Psion 6/Psychic Weapons Master 7/Streetfighter Barbarian 7 and a continuous item of Hero's Blade.

[bjoern]

Is point number 2 a pathfinder thing? In 3.5 that's not how critical threat ranges work. If you threaten on 15-20 and need a 17 to hit rolling a 15 or 16 is a miss.

I'm talking 3.5

In your example, a roll of a 15 or 16 is a critical threat. You now have to confirm the critical hit, roll the die again. If the new roll hits the AC (17) then its a critical hit for double damage (or whatever) if the roll is a miss, then its just a regular hit.

[OldTrees1]

Well, in that situation the roll of a natural one would be two things at once.

1.automatic miss
2. Critical threat (which is an auto hit even on a failed confirmation)

So these two things contradict each other completely. Not sure how it would work out.
Flip a coin and go from there?

Only a nat 20 is an auto hit. A nat 19 with a scimitar (crit range 18-20) still needs to exceed AC in order to hit.
[Edition D&D 3.0 - 3.5]

[Irk]

Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.

If it does not hit but is a threat, it is not an automatic hit.

[bjoern]

Only a nat 20 is an auto hit. A nat 19 with a scimitar (crit range 18-20) still needs to exceed AC in order to hit.
[Edition D&D 3.0 - 3.5]

You're right, I looked it up.

Thanks for the correction.

[nyjastul69]

I'm talking 3.5

In your example, a roll of a 15 or 16 is a critical threat. You now have to confirm the critical hit, roll the die again. If the new roll hits the AC (17) then its a critical hit for double damage (or whatever) if the roll is a miss, then its just a regular hit.

This is incorrect.


Originally posted by the SRD:

Increased Threat Range
Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.

Emphasis added.

Edit: Careful folks, there are ninjas about.

[Fax Celestis]

Note that Disciple of Dispater, which most crit chance builds seem to rely on, is a 3.0 prestige class. Under 3.0 rules, crit chances stacked a lot more than in 3.5, which nerfed crit stacking immensely. IMO, any conversion of Disciple of Dispater for use in a 3.5 game should take into account the general change in the way crit chances work and should not stack with anything.

Without including un-updated 3.0 material, the best critical threat range achievable should be 15-20, which to be honest is damn good and doesn't really need to be improved upon.

Psychic Weapon Master would like a word with you.

[Averis Vol]

Do note that the Disciple of Dispater isn't a PC allowed class; It is in a book that is said to be strictly NOT for PC's. If your DM lets you use this, it's okay of course, but as is it isn't legal.

[bjoern]

This is incorrect.



Emphasis added.

Edit: Careful folks, there are ninjas about.

Yeah, got it.

I guess its never been an issue for us. A guy hits with a nat19 and by the time bonuses are in he's up to 30something.
Now you know
And knowing is half the battle.

[KillianHawkeye]

Psychic Weapon Master would like a word with you.

Sorry, I haven't read every single web article. Exceptions are bound to exist. Still, my point about the general tendency of 3.5 threat range stacking stands. Almost all the time, it just doesn't. Be wary of allowing unfiltered 3.0 content into a 3.5 game.

[Stella]

Thanks for all the feedback, folks!

Google tells me that Weapon Master is in Sword and Fist: A Guidebook to Monks and Fighters, a book I do not own. But I could only find Psychic Weapon Master on the WotC site. Was it never published in a source book?

Ok, it looks like the best low level Threat Range is 15-20, as Keen is only a +1 equivalent.

From there a 7th level Streetfighter Barbarian can get to 14-20 (I don't think the +1 Threat Range this alternate class feature gives would be multiplied by any effect).

A L5 X/L7 Weapon Master (Psychic Weapon Master may be higher, I didn't look into the lowest level you might be and qualify for this PRC, but it is at least 5th since it requires a +5 BAB) would get a 13-20, and a L7 SFB/L7 Weapon Master would go to 12-20.

Hero's Blade is a 9th level spell, and to have this effect persistent would be expensive if not impossible below epic levels due to the +6 spell levels imposed by the Persist effect. And the whole "I'm a deity" thing, unless there is some source material which moves Persist out of the Divine Feats area.

I don't think any other effects apply due to all of the "doesn't stack" limitations on most/all of the ways to improve Threat Range.

Did I miss anything? I did leave out the Disciple of Dispater since that is a NPC class only.




Without including un-updated 3.0 material, the best critical threat range achievable should be 15-20, which to be honest is damn good and doesn't really need to be improved upon.

This can be true or not depending on the game environment. With quadratic Wizards/Tier 1 classes, a statement such as "the best critical threat range achievable should be 15-20" (my bolds) might only further the general attitude that Wizards should be able to do anything and everything, while a martial class who does anything effective gets a lot of critical hits is somehow unreasonable and needs nerfing pronto.

[Irk]

Hero's Blade is a 9th level spell, and to have this effect persistent would be expensive if not impossible below epic levels due to the +6 spell levels imposed by the Persist effect. And the whole "I'm a deity" thing, unless there is some source material which moves Persist out of the Divine Feats area.

A continuous item costs 612,000 GP, before cost-reduction tricks.

[Fax Celestis]

Just because the feat appeared in Deities and Demigods doesn't mean it's divine only.

[Chronos]

While we're at it, Arcane Duelist is also 3.0. And even if your DM is allowing 3.0 classes as-is, you'd have to go a fair ways into epic to fit in all of the threat-increasing PrCs. It'll also be very difficult to fit in all the required feats.

If you want an infinite (not just very large) number of attacks from Lightning Maces, you need one of two things: Either a threat range of 1-20 and way to hit on a natural 1 every time (not just 1/day), or a threat range of 10-20 and a way to get two or more extra attacks on a crit/threat. So far as I know, there's no way to do the first, but the second is possible by also taking the Snap Kick feat, which is like Lightning Mace but for unarmed strikes.

[KillianHawkeye]

This can be true or not depending on the game environment. With quadratic Wizards/Tier 1 classes, a statement such as "the best critical threat range achievable should be 15-20" (my bolds) might only further the general attitude that Wizards should be able to do anything and everything, while a martial class who does anything effective gets a lot of critical hits is somehow unreasonable and needs nerfing pronto.

You are misinterpreting my use of the word "should." I wasn't saying that that was how it ought to be, just that as far as I know that's the best that can be done without shenanigans.

[Irk]

While we're at it, Arcane Duelist is also 3.0. And even if your DM is allowing 3.0 classes as-is, you'd have to go a fair ways into epic to fit in all of the threat-increasing PrCs. It'll also be very difficult to fit in all the required feats.
I don't actually think it's possible pre-epic: Arcane Duelist 7, Streetfighter Barbarian 7, Weapon Master 7, DoD 8.


If you want an infinite (not just very large) number of attacks from Lightning Maces, you need one of two things: Either a threat range of 1-20 and way to hit on a natural 1 every time (not just 1/day), or a threat range of 10-20 and a way to get two or more extra attacks on a crit/threat. So far as I know, there's no way to do the first, but the second is possible by also taking the Snap Kick feat, which is like Lightning Mace but for unarmed strikes.
That second option is quite interesting.

[Darrin]

What is the best Threat Range which can be achieved?


Stump Knife. A&EG p. 10. If you are attacking an opponent in the same encounter that you've previously wounded with a stump knife, the crit range doubles to 17-20.