Weapons of Legacy, Looking a Gift DM in the Mouth?

[Dell_the_Engie]

When is it okay for a player to tell a DM "no"?

The Context:
I'm currently playing in a fairly unoptimized, low-gold 3.5 campaign, originally meant to be sort of a "dire straits" horror setting. I've been playing in this campaign for about a year now, and recently, it's shifted away from the desperation, with our DM introducing new character creation rules, and, following that, many players rolling new characters.

Using the new rolling system, recent characters average over 60 points on the point-buy system, and are armed with a DM-allowance of 30,000 GP for magic items, unprecedented in our campaign. Even for an 11th-level party, it's a big change. I, and a couple others, have not rolled new characters, because the game is primarily story-driven and we're invested in it.

Recently, my warlock had an encounter with a living suit of armor, which had some of the abilities of a Prismatic or Gold Dragon (frightful presence, flight, sunburst, weakness breath, and so on). After our party defeated the armor, my warlock spent time studying it to reveal that it was, in fact, an item of legacy. It belonged to an old and renowned dragonslayer, and the armor contained her soul, and parts of the essences of the many dragons she slew. At least, this is what our bard said, drawing from her bardic knowledge.

After communicating with the spirit in the armor for some time, I had revealed to me, as the player, what exactly this legacy item entailed.

The Problem:
https://shadowsofserenitypeak.obsidianportal.com/wikis/leazras-bastille

You can omit the gold costs, because, well, no one in this campaign could ever afford those, and that's the item. I have worked with my DM creatively before, and I tried to offer my input on this as constructively as possible, but, she wasn't too happy to hear it. She spent a lot of time working on this, apparently in excess of 60 hours, and so naturally, she was hoping for nothing but praise. The trouble is, regardless of how much time she spent, it's... terribly uninspired, and poorly designed besides.

Some of these abilities, you could hardly give away for free, and most of them simply aren't worth the associated costs and rituals. Some of the few worthwhile abilities come in too late in the game, at levels our campaign may never reach, or if we do, the abilities will be less effective by then. Perhaps most disappointing of all, these abilities aren't even creative, they don't reflect the lore of the armor, or the hellish battle my party faced bringing it down. Done correctly, this could've been a very cool item without being overpowered for our campaign. But, I value my skill checks, I value my precious few hit points, and I value my choice not to murder Lawful Good dragons too much to take this item. This isn't the armor of someone who slayed dragons, this is the armor of someone who got cremated by one.

Do you think my assessment is correct? How does a player approach this problem? Should I just indulge my DM and see how it goes, even if it hurts my character more than helps them? Should I speak up? DMs, how do you work with legacy items? And, if you could design a piece of legacy armor for a dragonslayer, how would you do it? I know I've got my ideas.

[bjoern]

Well, I would talk to your DM about how youre interested in the item but you'd like to suggest a few tweaks to it. Just to test the water and see what kind of reaction you get.
Is your DM pretty sharp with the mechanics of the rules? Is the armor have some hidden value that maybe your not seeing?

On a side note, once had a caster stumble across a suit of plate armor. Really decorated and scary looking . During the course of studying it to figure out what it did, he tried it on. Turns out it was cursed and could be removed. His strength was too low to even stand in it so he was paralyzed . Spent a whole session carting him around looking for a cleric to remove curse it. We all thought it was hilarious, even the wizard.

[LurKing]

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with you that the benefits are not that great, but disagree with you on the costs. The skill check penalty is annoying but tolerable considering how easy skills are to boost, and the HP loss is more than offset by the +4 constitution.

The problem though, as you said, is that any of the abilities worth having become available too late to matter. IMO, the one exception is Cunning, which is really a fantastic ability at any level, similar to being constantly under the effects of Foresight. One thing that's especially troubling is the fact that it's masterwork and never gains enhancement bonuses (unless I'm misreading.)

At the end of the day, the real cost in using this armor is in the armor you cannot use instead. In a low gold, low magic game however, being able to get your hands on your perfect armor (such as feycraft githcraft mithral somethingrather with thistledown padding, +1 soulfire heavy fortification) may not be very likely.

If your DM will allow you to go on quests to earn the favor of a legendary blacksmith, thereby gaining enhancement bonuses on the armor, it may be worth using (but only because it's a low-wealth game.) If your DM tells you "this armor will always be 'just masterwork' with a few magical rider effects" then you'll have to decide if the story benefits outweigh the personal-character-strength costs.

[Telok]

The Cunning ability is nice, the Con boost at 13th offsets the hit point loss, and the skill penalty isn't too bad.
That said, I wouldn't even consider touching the armor before 13th level as a warlock. If I were running around at 90+ hitpoints at 11th level, maybe. But not with a d6 hit die and moderate Con. I did note that there is an ability on the chart that is not explained in the text. If that ability is awesome it may well be worth it.

One question is the rituals. I do not recall the levels they are required at but fresh dragon blood may be rather hard to come by short of murdering a random dragon. Also, what constitutes a dragon for this armor? A good aligned wizard can take a pseudodragon for a familiar with a feat and they are type Dragon. Are you going to be penalized for not killing the familiar of some king's advisor?

Also, that third ritual? Not gonna happen unless the DM deliberately soft-balls that dragon or you have some super anti-dragon magic on your side. And a dragon bane weapon or an arrow of dragon slaying won't cut it. We're talking scrolls of Scrying, Greater Teleport, Extended True Strike, and Maximized Shivering Touch with a wand of Assay Resistance in a wand sheath. This does not sound like the sort of campaign where that level of efficency is welcome.

The fear and fireball may be thematic, but they are nearly useless. What the armor really needs is Evasion and Favored Enemy: Dragons (that scales with level, a static +2 is going to be useless).

[Dell_the_Engie]

Well, I would talk to your DM about how youre interested in the item but you'd like to suggest a few tweaks to it. Just to test the water and see what kind of reaction you get.

I think she's pretty set on how it is for now, unfortunately. I took the time, myself, to learn all about Weapons of Legacy. I read through the many example items, and through the process of creating a custom item. I even charted out the ability examples in the book, so I could see what spell levels, and what number of uses per day, are appropriate for each menu in a legacy item's creation. I came to her with numerous suggestions to make the item more useful and also more thematic, and perhaps this was the problem. I may have suggested too many changes at once, and I think she took offense, and since our conversations, she has stood fairly rigid with her creation.


Is your DM pretty sharp with the mechanics of the rules? Is the armor have some hidden value that maybe your not seeing?

Hidden value? Well, the one thing she said she may think about was to offer alternative ability progressions depending on how my character, Malek, interacts with Leazra, the spirit occupying the armor. Besides this adding needless mechanical complication, she and Malek... don't quite get along at the moment. Leazra recently implored Malek to crush a nest of Turtle Dragon eggs, the eggs of a forest guardian. Malek did not appreciate her suggestion. And he hasn't even initiated the first ritual yet, the pledge to kill every dragon he encounters.


On a side note, once had a caster stumble across a suit of plate armor. Really decorated and scary looking. During the course of studying it to figure out what it did, he tried it on. Turns out it was cursed and couldn't be removed.

Ooh, that's tough. Very funny, though. After our encounter with the armor, our bard had the nerve to just throw on the helmet and see what happened. She reactivated its frightful presence, but thankfully, no one was affected. And yes, she put on just the helmet alone, and gained a frightful presence. And she's a gnome, and the legacy only works with humans.

[Dell_the_Engie]

The skill check penalty is annoying but tolerable considering how easy skills are to boost, and the HP loss is more than offset by the +4 constitution.

I agree, the skill check penalty is probably tolerable, at least at -1 or -2, but I do rely very heavily on skill checks through each session, more than many other players. A penalty to all skill checks is a considerable cost. As for the HP loss, at our current progression, there's no telling when or if we may reach 13th level. Besides that, if my DM is spending an ability to merely undo a penalty, then maybe she should reassess the costs and abilities in the first place. As Weapons of Legacy says, "costs should be meaningful". Perhaps the greatest cost comes from the rituals. While I have the privilege of avoiding the GP costs involved, the rituals are still very demanding. That least legacy ritual, the pledge? That was pulled straight from the greater legacy ritual options. That's not very good design.


IMO, the one exception is Cunning, which is really a fantastic ability at any level... One thing that's especially troubling is the fact that it's masterwork and never gains enhancement bonuses (unless I'm misreading.)

No, you read that right. I took issue with this as well. Almost all legacy items have a +1 enhancement bonus, very few are only masterwork. This armor has no such bonus, and gains none with progression. I suggested to her that it progress to +1 Dragondodger, at the very least. She disagreed. I mused out loud that this must be how Leazra died. She laughed. Yes. Haha. Funny. The Cunning ability, which really is great, is about the only thing that makes me even consider using this.


-snip-

Good catch! I'm inclined to say, from the menu slot it occupies, that it's Intelligent Legacy, Major. If so, this could be... essential, really.

If we are in the presence of a Dragon-type creature, Leazra will want it dead. According the pledge, I will incur a penalty if I do not comply. This has already caused some conflict between Malek and Leazra, and I suspect if the armor becomes intelligent with an ego score, many Will saves are in my future. And yes, fresh dragon blood would be hard to come by... if we hadn't just recently encountered a Turtle Dragon. Malek happens to be carrying a pint of the stuff on him right now.

Yes, the greater legacy ritual is suicide. Without some major gimmicks, it's simply not happening. And really, there's no incentive to complete the greater legacy ritual, anyway. Anything worthwhile has already been unlocked. Another example of bad design.

Cause Fear five times per day is about as valuable as Cause Fear at-will, because the number of times you'll use it will still be zero. And at 20th level, a Maximized Fireball 1/day is pretty much worthless, considering what we and everything else will be dishing out normally every single round. No Evasion, no Favored Enemy, but I do ignore the DR of dragons, which can be pretty significant, and Eldritch Blast hits their touch AC anyway.

[HammeredWharf]

Sounds like an issue with priorities, to be honest. Why would the DM spend 60 hours on an item? Interesting loot is always welcome, but this falls in the domain of "never expect your players to stick to your rails". Of course, spending a lot of time on something only to have it ignored by the players is annoying, but it's just a part of being a DM. One has to take the bad with the good.

In other words, I think it's ok for you to tell Leazra she can rust in a ditch and wear something else. I know I wouldn't wear an item that wants me to kill psedodragons. That's like a Spiked Club of Totoro Slaying. Pure evil!

[Flickerdart]

I bet you could get a ton of gold if you sold it.

[Shinken]

A DM should always, always drop the associated penalties for Weapons of Legacy. The rituals are cool as adventure hooks and should stay, but the penalties are awful. Just drop them.

[rexx1888]

theres nothing especially wrong with some penalties, the devil is always in the details. the problem is the way those penalties are implemented in the book. they are supposed to impact the most useful parts of a character, because they have lots of those, but why in the hell would someone wear something that makes them bad at the thing they need to be good at. Good design suggests that the penaltys be worked in so that they are immediately replaced by something the same, but thematic. At least for a system like dnd anyway.

but all of that is mute when the item in question is a piece of garbage that doesnt really suit the player expected to use it :\ If you dont want it, sell it. If she bulks at her, explain that you dont give a **** and that its your character an youll wear whatever the hell you want to wear. Rail roads dont work if no one rides the train

[Firechanter]

Yeah, I'd pass on that. It's not really a gift horse even, considering the penalties and implications associated with the item. It's a major liability you are expected to load upon yourself.
Items of Legacy, as written, are crap. As someone else has said, at least the penalties should be nixed.

The real deal-breaker to me is the kill-all-dragons clause. That way you are basically just yielding control of your character over to your DM. The levels of horsedung she can ride you into with this pledge are in no way justified by the benefits.

My guess is, seeing how proud she is of making that item, she will get mad if you try to sell it. But she needs to understand that a non-magical scalemail is just not going to do the trick in the armour department.

Seeing how unreasonable she has been in dealing with your input, I suppose you can just forget about any other magical loot in the future if you decline this. But anyway. I still say pass.

[Telonius]

I'd take a bit of an alternate approach - speaking from the DM's perspective, I'm generally more proud of my stories than of my mechanics. If you want to make the refusal go down a little smoother, tell her you really like the concept behind it (ancient relic of a dragonslayer - how cool is that?), but that the mechanics seem more than a bit weird. Maybe even steer her over here to get some suggestions for improving the armor.

One important thing to ask - how optimized is your group? I know you're playing a Warlock, so it's obviously not wall-to-wall Tier 1's. And the sudden power shift is probably causing a lot of mischief (and is also probably why the DM is trying to throw you a bone by giving you a cool item). But if we could get a feel for the general power level we might be able to suggest powers that both the DM and the group would be comfortable with.

[atemu1234]

I'm not a fan of Weapons of Legacy, mostly for reasons like this. It offers limited benefits for pretty bad limitations, especially at low levels.

I'm all for a weapon scaling with its user in terms of power, but WoL do it very, very badly.

[Trasilor]

As a DM, I can relate to her frustration. She spends hours creating this scaling armor, only to have the player not want it. However, as she did this in a vacuum without your input (assuming it was designed for your character), this is a very real possibility she should have planned for.

Have you talked to her about you questing (read: more adventures) to get the armor 'fixed'. In other words, you go adventure to imbue the armor with alternate abilities/powers more in line with your goals.

For instance - while the spirit who inhabits this armor is all about killing dragons - you only want to kill evil dragons. So you go on a quest to re-align the armor's purpose.

Repeat for each ability/bonus you want changed. This allows both a RP opportunity as well as a series of adventure hooks (a win-win in the gaming world). Otherwise, just look to sell this unique set of armor. Use the bard's Gather Information / Bardic knowledge to find potential buyers.

If you decide to keep it (without changes), ask if you get the Enhancement ability bonus typed as something else (insight, divine, etc). Enhancement bonuses are very common and easily duplicated/replaced.

Regarding New Character Creation.
Ask the DM to allow you to recreate your character using the new character creation rules (sans the gold). It's an issue of fairness.

Gold is little more tricky, but remember, if other players are given 30K and told to select gear they effectively given access to a Magi-mart (something that many DMs hate). You need to calculate your assets. If you have more than 30K worth of gear, and you like the gear - shut up. If you more than 30K and you don't like it - talk to your DM about trading it out. If you have less than 30K, you talk to your DM (especially if it gear you don't want).

[Dell_the_Engie]

To answer a few questions, my party's optimization, overall, is pretty low. In terms of tiers, you're probably looking at a 4, average. It does vary between characters, of course. The most optimized character is likely our Cleric, who is just a persistent-spell-buffed, hilariously high-strength melee gish. But then, on the other hand, we also have a Shadowcaster, a Battledancer, and a Barbarian. The barbarian and battledancer especially need those ridiculous stats and magic equipment to keep pace. I do decent damage for the party, but I'm not a big-hitter, I mostly support others with battlefield control. Just bear in mind that as far as magic items go, the 30,000 GP selection is just what these new characters start with. They will absolutely get more stuff as we play, and I'm sure Malek will too, but the difference is I rolled my character a year ago with lower stats and with a very low allotment of gold with no "Magic Mart" available. In fact, my DM has said that she should have had me reroll my stats at first, considering I have the lowest of the party by a fair margin. The legacy item may very well be a response to both of these inequalities. The question, then, is if this was the appropriate response.

As far as selling the armor goes, this is a no-no for several reasons. First and foremost, this would be a huge sign of disrespect to my DM. In spite of my contentions, I understand and appreciate the time and work she put into making this armor. It's why I've spent so much time, myself, on the matter. Second, Malek is borrowing the armor from a collector, and intends to return it when his work is done, and selling the armor off to someone else wouldn't be appropriate. Third, items of legacy, as defined in the book, are "priceless". There's no way to appraise an appropriate value, and so it could be sold at any price, depending on whether or not the buyer recognizes the item's hidden power. Given that most residents of our setting hate and fear magic, that limits our options to black market bidders, which becomes even more ethically tenuous. In short, it isn't happening.

Really though, even though I'm put off by the costs, I wouldn't mind them nearly as much if there was some meaningful exchange, because that's really all I've wanted; useful and interesting abilities. Cause fear 5/day is neither useful nor interesting, and I'm not initiating a legacy for that. Ability score enhancement bonuses to counter HP and skill check costs are neither useful nor interesting, and I'm not initiating a legacy for that. Even the flight ability is boring, there are physical, mechanical, magical wings attached to this armor, and instead I'm affected by a fly spell for 10 minutes. The abilities granted give me nearly no tools to combat or defend myself from dragons, which you would think would be the armor's specialty. The best ability this armor has against dragons, ignoring their DR, is a legacy ability that she set as a nonlegacy ability, which I don't think she understood breaks from the template, but hey, as long as I don't have to initiate a greater legacy ritual as a least legacy ritual. These are major design flaws.

Still, the item's probably worth more than 30,000 GP, just given the number of abilities. But it's hard to say, because most magical items don't penalize their wielder, and most item abilities are simply available, they do not have to be "unlocked". And certainly, there is a huge value in and of itself in being able to choose how to spend 30,000 GP. I know I could make much better use of that allowance for my character.

I'm seeing some interesting suggestions from you guys, and I thank you all for your feedback. It definitely gives me some things to consider. I've already approached her in regard to the item's lack of thematic abilities, hoping she would see some unique and flavorful possibilities that would be more mutually satisfying. She did not budge. But, founding new abilities, rituals and so on are not impossible, just probably far too expensive for anyone to ever do in this campaign. I would need to speak with her about eschewing those costs somehow, and I would like the idea of making an actual quest out of it, if it wasn't for the fact that our party is already deep into a quest that will likely span the rest of the campaign. We're not exactly going to take a detour. Really, the one and only concession she has even slightly considered is to offer different progressions based on Malek and Leazra's relations, and I doubt that went farther than just a passing idea.

[J-H]

It's a decent item - for a barbarian or other melee type. Unless you're a Glaivelock, it's not well-suited for a Warlock:

Cause fear with no scaling DC? I think there's a Warlock ability for that; if not, Intimidate does it better with a few skill tricks.
+2 DEX? With the skill penalty, you're trading -1s in all your non-dex skills for +1 to hit and +1 to Reflex saves.
Fly 1x/day? There's a Warlock Invocation for that, which does it much better.
Cunning? Eh, it's OK.
+4 CON? More skill penalties, in exchange for +2 to Fort saves and some mitigation of HP loss.
Awakening? Don't know what that is.
Poison immunity? Only good if you are in a high-poison campaign.
Regeneration? Not fast enough to be combat-useful. Your cleric can do this.
Fireball 1x/day? A 5th-level spell slot doing 60 damage 1x/day is not powerful at level 20.

I don't think that all the negatives are worth +1 Ref, +2 Fort, Uncanny Dodge (Cunning), and a bunch of useless minor abilities.

Would not wear. Offer it to the party Barbarian, and see about getting it Enchanted to provide more AC.

[Trasilor]

As far as selling the armor goes, this is a no-no for several reasons. First and foremost, this would be a huge sign of disrespect to my DM. In spite of my contentions, I understand and appreciate the time and work she put into making this armor. It's why I've spent so much time, myself, on the matter.

I know this will sound harsh, but understand, your DM is disrespecting you. If she intended for your character to inherit this armor, she should have worked with you to create something unique that your character (and you) would have appreciated. Instead, she went ahead and created this for your character and now you feel required to use it - despite the various flaws you ave pointed out.

If you are concerned about hurting your DM's feelings / disrespecting her for the time and energy she has put into the game - how are you not constantly railroaded? I mean, I imagine she spends much more time creating her story than this one item, as such do you never go 'off rails?' Do you ever try to think outside the box or do you stick to the pre-planned plot to ensure you don't disrespect the time your DM spent creating it?


Second, Malek is borrowing the armor from a collector, and intends to return it when his work is done, and selling the armor off to someone else wouldn't be appropriate.

This is a viable reason. An in-game reason. As a DM, if I give my players a unique item, it is theirs to do with (keep, sell, toss aside). I have no control over their character. Of course, there are ramifications (in game) as justified by the game.

Of course, this creates other issues. Your DM is allowing your character to borrow a magical item for this quest? An item, which, in your own words, was supposed to mitigate the 30K difference? This means, you are even further behind the wealth curve - as you don't actually own this item.


Third, items of legacy, as defined in the book, are "priceless"

Of course, they do have a price :smallamused:


Given that most residents of our setting hate and fear magic, that limits our options to black market bidders, which becomes even more ethically tenuous.

There are always consequences to your actions, but it is a viable (again in game) reason not to sell the item.

I hate to say it, but this item is a dud. Give it to another player. The fact that you have spent all this energy and time should be a strong indication.

[Segev]

From an RP perspective, it's pretty clear that Malek finds the armor's hatred of dragons a little abhorrent when it extends to babies and probably non-evil grown-ups. The very first ritual required is one he finds ethically or morally repugnant, and will not do. I'd RP the conflict, and possibly get into an IC argument with the armor. See if the armor yields, or if you both get your backs up. It may turn out that the two just don't get along, and neither would be happy with the proposed partnership. At that point, you are only being respectful to the armor and the collector to find it somebody else who'll work with it better.

Or, if your character couldn't work with anybody sharing the armor's loathing of dragons, even, it may be that you simply have to return it. You can do it without casting aspersions on the collector: you and the armor just don't get along, and you think the armor's genocidal tendencies make even being in a party with it untenable. Thank the collector, but you can't make use of it, and wouldn't want to risk harming his collectable in the process of trying but failing to make said use.

[Crake]

Uhh, isn't ignoring the DR of dragons completely pointless for you anyway? You know, since eldritch blast already ignores DR and all?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Everything except the Cunning ability is either useless, available as a cheap magic item or you already have it from your class abilities. Never being flat footed is nice but it's really not worth the cost and the inability to wear other, more beneficial armor.

Imo items of legacy should give you abilities you can't (or can't easily) get somewhere else. Slapping some random boni on it that are either so common that everyone gets them anyway (enhancement to Con), that are useless (Cause Fear, at 11th level? Regeneration as the most useless ring in the game?) or that you already have (Fly) really isn't worth the loss of hit points and skill malus.
The fluff is a matter of taste and IC personality. Only you can decide if it fits your character.

It's a shame that your DMs 60 hours of effort will be wasted but if she was that desperate to see it used she should have actually talked to the intended recipient and made it useful and fitting.
Accepting a legacy is a pretty serious IC decision after all, if you RP it properly. And nobody wants a useles item that costs you more than it benefits OOC.


Uhh, isn't ignoring the DR of dragons completely pointless for you anyway? You know, since eldritch blast already ignores DR and all?

Ignoring the DR of dragons is pointless for any PC since they never get more than DR/magic even at epic levels, which any PC attacking with a melee weapon is going to beat automatically by level 3 or 4.

[jjcrpntr]

Recently, my warlock had an encounter with a living suit of armor, which had some of the abilities of a Prismatic or Gold Dragon (frightful presence, flight, sunburst, weakness breath, and so on). After our party defeated the armor, my warlock spent time studying it to reveal that it was, in fact, an item of legacy. It belonged to an old and renowned dragonslayer, and the armor contained her soul, and parts of the essences of the many dragons she slew. At least, this is what our bard said, drawing from her bardic knowledge.

Not much to add to this conversation other than I wish my players would do more of this stuff. They'd have just said "loot the body and move on".

[ohil]

Not much to add to this conversation other than I wish my players would do more of this stuff. They'd have just said "loot the body and move on".

Not true I would of said detect magic, spell craft, ok I put the armor on :D

[Flickerdart]

Oh! Oh! I have a cunning plan.

So your DM wants you to appreciate the super badass armour, right? But you don't want to use it? Ask her if you can take Leadership, and give it to your cohort. Then you can design a secondary guy who's willing to bear the burden of genocidal racist armour, and who won't be hurt too much by the disadvantages (high HP and good Will saves, no reliance on skills, can self-buff with Magic Vestment or similar).

[Vogonjeltz]

It's why I've spent so much time, myself, on the matter. Second, Malek is borrowing the armor from a collector, and intends to return it when his work is done, and selling the armor off to someone else wouldn't be appropriate.

I was going to say something else, but then I saw this Huge red flag. Weapons of Legacy require permanent sacrifices, and this is a borrowed item? Using this item doesn't make any sense at all from either a mechanical or a roleplaying standpoint.

[Dell_the_Engie]

Just to make things clear, as far as how long Malek is allowed to use the armor, he could "borrow" it indefinitely, without any issue. And he could renounce the legacy at any point if he wished to return or discard the armor, undoing any investment. This is not such a problem.


I know this will sound harsh, but understand, your DM is disrespecting you. If she intended for your character to inherit this armor, she should have worked with you to create something unique that your character (and you) would have appreciated. Instead, she went ahead and created this for your character and now you feel required to use it - despite the various flaws you ave pointed out.

If you are concerned about hurting your DM's feelings / disrespecting her for the time and energy she has put into the game - how are you not constantly railroaded? I mean, I imagine she spends much more time creating her story than this one item, as such do you never go 'off rails?' Do you ever try to think outside the box or do you stick to the pre-planned plot to ensure you don't disrespect the time your DM spent creating it?

Yikes. You're right, though, she spent far too much time on this armor to have never consulted me. When she was finished, she asked me what I thought of it, but obviously had no intention of making alterations. The only people she referred to while creating the item were my party mates, who evidently had no criticism at all. It was only with my insistence that she would concede to the poor design of the pledge ritual, and so she decided that Malek could also remove himself from the vicinity of a dragon to avoid penalties. So, antipathy, or murder. Well, great, at least I have a choice now. It would still be a strange ritual for a 5th-level character, but it is a marked improvement. Still, my DM would make no further changes than this. I don't feel disrespected with how she went about making the item, I do think she had good intentions, but I do feel discounted after she refused to consider my input. I should feel no obligation to use the armor if it's going to hurt me.

Honestly, I never had issues with my DM until she introduced the new character creation system. This is her first campaign, and she's run it for a few years now, and over this past year I've played, I would say she runs a fantastic game. She is absolutely open to improvisation if our characters run off the tracks, and she's worked on creating a living world, so there's always something, even if we're not going where she's planned. We really get to express our characters and have agency in the world, and we continue with this story because we as players, and as characters, are compelled to. She took this new creation system from a long-time DM. I think she places a lot of value on his seniority, so as to mean he must be a great DM if he's been doing it for so long. The system itself (https://shadowsofserenitypeak.obsidianportal.com/wikis/creating-a-character), though, is stupidly complicated, and involves making many rolls and calculations for a very high-powered set of stats. Here's a comparison (http://puu.sh/asxFx/796a7df629.png) of PCs before and after the new rolling system. Combined with the "30K GP Magic Mart", it threw off the balance and the feeling of the campaign, and I feel penalized for being invested in my character. This has been my only contention with my DM thus far, and it's not a small one, either.

[Sith_Happens]

I should feel no obligation to use the armor if it's going to hurt me.

This is pretty much what it comes down to. You said this armor was offered to you on indefinite loan, right? Return it and ask for, well, just about anything else instead.

[Curbstomp]

A few thoughts:

Weapons of Legacy are pretty cool if you don't invest in them in general. They usually are around a +1 item with a bit of semi-useful fluff. So for low level characters or for item slots you don't have filled they are not bad.

That said. You should never invest in a Weapon of Legacy (or Legacy Item in general) if you don't like the costs or later abilities. Also they DO have an easily calculated value. The base value is listed with the item and you can calculate the benefits and subtract the negatives (like ritual costs and skill penalties) to arrive at a remarkably precise gold piece value at any point in the item's progression.

If you don't like the item, don't use it. Find a Dragonslayer and wedge them into the armor. Perhaps a Gully Dwarf if they exist in your setting. Or return it to the owner.

If your character is lagging in stats, talk to your DM about getting a Tome/Book that gives you a permanent stat increase. Those are found in the DMG. They have a set gold piece value and you can calculate your wealth, compare it to the new characters and ask for an item to make up the difference. Worst case: your DM says no. Best case: they give you more than you asked for. That or consider talking to the other players about letting you take a slightly larger percentage of treasure until you balance out the wealth.

[Dell_the_Engie]

Also they DO have an easily calculated value. The base value is listed with the item and you can calculate the benefits and subtract the negatives (like ritual costs and skill penalties) to arrive at a remarkably precise gold piece value at any point in the item's progression.

Hm! I may try to do this, just out of curiosity, but it sounds like it would take some time with calculating both bonuses and costs and penalties.


If your character is lagging in stats, talk to your DM about getting a Tome/Book that gives you a permanent stat increase. Those are found in the DMG. They have a set gold piece value and you can calculate your wealth, compare it to the new characters and ask for an item to make up the difference. Worst case: your DM says no. Best case: they give you more than you asked for. That or consider talking to the other players about letting you take a slightly larger percentage of treasure until you balance out the wealth.

Thanks, I'll look into that. I do have one party mate who, out of character, thinks it would be cool to have his physically fit character help Malek raise his constitution score. It would be interesting, although I'm unsure how my DM would feel about it. I will look into those tomes as well, though. If my DM is interested in bringing my character in line with everyone else's, my stat bonuses should not be enhancement, they should be another type, and most optimally just inherent.

[nedz]

I bet you could get a ton of gold if you sold it.

This, it's a low wealth campaign. Provided that you can buy stuff with the gold then this is the best option.

If you can't sell it, or pawn it, just return it to the collector.

As a DM I expect to never use half the stuff I write — this includes entire dungeons, cities, continents and worlds even.

[Trasilor]

It sounds like you have two issues:
1) Character given a poorly designed 'gift' you feel obligated to use.
2) New game mechanics have made your character weaker, thus you feel penalized for investing in the character.

For the first problem, lots of people have weighed-in to offer advice. From ways to fix the armor to forget the armor and move on.

Your second problem is a more complicated. In a clearly cheap move, you could go by way of "Landfill 2" from Beerfest. Essentially, Malek dies. And is replace by his... identical twin brother Balek. Who, like Malek is a Warlock. Furthermore, Balek has heard from Malek all about the party and already feels like he is good friends with them. Finally, Balek, in remembrance of his brother, asks the party to call him Malek...(This happened in the movie Beerfest). Yes I know its silly, but sometimes you need to show the DM how the are being absurd.

Personally I wouldn't do this, but rather "threaten" to do this :smallamused:

I honestly don't know of a sure-fire method for enlightening your DM to the problems with her new character generation (New PCs get better stats without compensating original PCs. New PCs are given access to Magi-mart while original PCs are given nothing...)

Good luck :)
It sounds like you have a lot of fun with a DM who is generally great.

[Giddonihah]

Well the item kinda sucks, but there is something you could do with it.

Simply take 3 lvls Hellfire Warlock, then progress it further with Legacy Champion. HellFire warlock's Hellfire Blast progresses 2d6 per level, you take Legacy Champion to continue progressing it to get tons of damage. This ignores the weakness and instead latches onto the fact that its simply a Legacy item and you are a Warlock.
It definitely falls under Optimization, but its still there.

Added bonus is that Legacy Champion might help the item suck slightly less in general.. likeee using Replace Legacy Ability to get some decent abilities. Actually, even without Optimization Legacy Champion might be the way to go.

Lets see, Legacy Champion gets you
1. No ritual costs.
2. The ability to switch out some of its worse abilities for others you like more.
3. Extra Legacy abilities uses (So, Fly then)
4. Two free legacy bonus feats. Channel Legacy and Quicken legacy both put your weak spell likes to work without needing a standard action. Channel those cause fears into something useful! Or trade them in for a spell-like that you would want to quicken. Curative Legacy is rather nice, but I don't think you qualify.
5. 8/10 Class advancement. 3/4bab D8 HD 4skillpoints lvl and high will isnt the worst chasis.

[Sith_Happens]

Your second problem is a more complicated. In a clearly cheap move, you could go by way of "Landfill 2" from Beerfest. Essentially, Malek dies. And is replace by his... identical twin brother Balek. Who, like Malek is a Warlock. Furthermore, Balek has heard from Malek all about the party and already feels like he is good friends with them. Finally, Balek, in remembrance of his brother, asks the party to call him Malek...(This happened in the movie Beerfest). Yes I know its silly, but sometimes you need to show the DM how the are being absurd.

Or, two words: Rebuild quest.