Which Hero Has Gone Through the Most Character Development?

[Darth Paul]

After almost 1000 strips, none of our heroes are the same joke-a-day characters they began as; it's indisputable that Character Development Has Happened. But who has gotten the most?

Just to kick off, here's my opinions (subject to future refinement and reflection):

It's actually easier to start with who has had the least, and, frankly, I think it's

Durkon. His major story arcs were with Hilgya and Malack; a love story and his death. Even during those, he still seemed to me to be the same old reliable Durkon, unshakeable, unchangeable. And that's OK, I like Durkon the way he iswas, he was the rock upon which the Order was built. Without him they are sort of broken, even though they're together.

Roy. Buddy Roy. How have you changed, Roy? You've loosened up and got a sense of humor, but you're still the same Roy.

Haley. You've come a long way. You've gone from being defined by greed and secrets to actually being in love, being a full member of the team, being a leader of half of the team for a whole book (whether you did it well or not is beside the point, I give you credit for trying).

Vaarsuvius. We can say you have literally gone to Hell and back. There's probably even worse ahead of you. You have had an amazing amount of development, I would put you in a tie with

Belkar. Whether your character development is real or fake, it's there. From Stupid Random Evil to High-Functioning Psychopath Teammate was a rough road, but you seem to have made it.

My prize for Most Massive Character Development goes to

Elan. Who would have thought that the dopey bard of DCF would be the same character to call out Tarquin in Book 5? It must be the Dashing Swordsman clothes. I have to admit that I am finding Elan the most entertaining character lately, and perhaps even the most well-rounded.

What do you think?

[Tvtyrant]

I vote V for the biggest single revelation, Elan and Haley tie for the biggest actual character changes. V is still the same person, just a humbled and possibly broken one. Elan and Haley have both grown into better, fuller people than they were before.

[Nilehus]

I'd say it's a tie between Vaarsuvius and Elan, for the reasons you described. We did just go through a whole book where Elan's development was one of the highlights though, so he's got an unfair lead at the moment. :smallwink:


I vote V for the biggest single revelation, Elan and Haley tie for the biggest actual character changes. V is still the same person, just a humbled and possibly broken one. Elan and Haley have both grown into better, fuller people than they were before.

When one of your biggest traits is your arrogance and your complete confidence that arcane magic can solve any/all problems, having that shaken and broken in front of you and working past it is a heck of a lot of development. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Im going to go with V. Almost his entire outlook has changed, whereas Elan is still more or less the same person, just with a dash of reality sprinkled on.

[Rock270]

For me, The order from least to greatest is Durkon, Roy, Vaarsuvius, Haley, Élan, and Belkar.

Haley has gone from a secretive, gold-hoarding rouge to a trusting, generous rouge. V has become more open and mindful that ultimate arcane power is not the way to victory.

Belkar has had more character development because while Elan has become far more mature than he was before, he still retains child-like characteristics. Belkar, on the other hand, has gone from a psychopathic killer who causes pain and suffering for pure fun and doesn't care about the party in the slightest to a team player who saved the lives of the people who put him in the arena (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html) purely because he felt the situation they were in.

[Ghost Nappa]

How does one quantify character growth? The number of plot arcs dedicated to them? The number of comics they're in? How much they're different now than when they started? How much they've suffered over the years? How much they're triumphed over the dangers in front of them?


How much the forum likes them?



If you want to be honest, truly honest, the humans have had more arcs dedicated to them in total. Belkar didn't really have anything going for him until the Thieves' Guild revelation and now with Durkula. Vaarsuvius has had some small ones, but has only recently gotten a lot of attention with the Black Dragon duel and the IFCC shenanigans.

Durkon had the night with Hilgya VERY early on, but he's more or less been the group's Ol' Reliable up until his vampirization. Durkon himself has not changed, but his world is VERY different from the inside of his soul prison brain...thing.


Roy, Haley AND Elan all had conversations with their parents. Roy had the gender-bender, the family sword repairing, the time in the afterlife, his becoming a better leader, his time with Miko AND Julia AND Celia. He's had the fight with Thog. His backstory and goals are THE main plot as Haley points out to us at the dirt farm.

Haley had the aphasia, the romance section with Elan Nale (whom she thought as Elan) with her relationship upgrade with Elan being the Finale. She had her Underground Resistance Leader arc, and had some interactions with the Thieves' Guild (it was Belkar's arc but Haley gives us the backdrop and setting), along with trying to help educate Elan in regards to his father.

Elan has received TWO weapon upgrades at the end of a character arc AND a costume change (no one else has had a permanent art change: Haley gets a new look every book, and the closest anyone else got was Roy wearing Xykon's crown). If you ever wanted physical proof of development, nothing says it better. If Roy is the protagonist than Elan is second.


If character Development is measured by scars, then the winner is O-Chul.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that the characters have all changed in some ways, except Durkon. I imagine that we will be seeing plenty of character development for him soon. After Durkon, I rank Roy. While I think he was changed somewhat by his death experience, he is still very similar to the person who pledged to fulfill his father's oath. Then, Belkar. I think that Belkar has changed somewhat, but still has more to go. Next, Elan. I think Elan still has much the same personality, just a better grasp on reality and a more serious tone at times. After Elan, I rank Haley. I think that Haley has changed a ton since we first met her, in many different ways. Finally, Vaarsuvius. I think that Vaarsuvius has had some of the largest changes in character and outlook of any of the Order. I also think they have a ways to go.

I really like seeing others opinions on this subject!

[ti'esar]

I definitely don't think it's Elan. As said earlier, he's still essentially the same person, just with a little more realism. The character whose basic traits have changed the most would probably have to be V or Belkar.

[grandpheonix]

Out of the heroes? If we are talking about the PCs, then the belkster. He went from giving one damn to giving 18 damns. Thats a 1800% increase! No one else compares to that much character growth.

NPC & PC? Miko. Her alignment shifted. That takes friggin forever in a real game. She killed her Lord, which was inhumane and unlawful, putting her into the weird place known only as TN.

Deuces!

[DaggerPen]

While character development can be difficult to quantify, I'd rank it as:

1. Vaarsuvius. V's changed immensely from the uncaring self-centered jerk obsessed with nothing but arcane power to the remorseful partner to vir familiar who is actively trying to improve virself and make up for past mistakes. While V's backslid a lot, V continues to grow and change, and has come very, very far already.

2. Belkar. Another one who's still in the middle of a big personal growth arc (and looks like he'll be getting much more of it in this upcoming book), he's had a huge change from the gleeful mass murderer with no concept of why he was being punished for his crimes to a team player who has gained some amount of empathy and a surprising amount of insight into the experience. I'd still peg him as CE, but if he has a bit more time yet, he might just make it to CN. I'll peg him below Vaarsuvius, but it's very close, and I could definitely see arguments for the other way around.

3. Haley. Though still the same at her core, she's still the same old money-loving rogue, she's come incredibly far in terms of learning to trust others and open up, as well as in moving past her insecurities and self-loathing. The Haley we have now is stunningly wiser and more well adjusted than the insecure secret-keeper hoarding gold to save her father we first met.

4. Elan. He's pretty close to Haley in terms of development, but I'd still put him lower on the rung. While we just got out of an arc featuring him, his revelations have been mostly along the lines of realizing that the family he dreamed of isn't the one he has and accepting that his dad is just a genuinely horrible person, and realizing that story isn't worth hurting people over. He's a lot more mature, but aside from a few difficult realizations, he's very much the same.

5. Roy. Wow, I'm actually really surprised to realize how low on the list he is, possibly because his character development was so much the focus in the earlier comics. Like Elan, he's come to a lot of difficult realizations about his father, and has finally moved past seeking his approval (though I imagine he'd still like it - see Eugene's farewell in the phantasm) and what being a hero really means to him. His development did involve him becoming a genuinely better person as he realized his real reasons for becoming a fighter when choosing to rescue Elan and came to terms with his own history of sexist behavior during the sex-changing belt arc, and he's come to a resolution with his father, but he's still very similar to how he was. I will say, though, that Roy doesn't feel underdeveloped so much as... developed enough already? We've already seen so much about his personal life and struggles that there's just not a lot of new ground to cover at this point. I imagine we'll get to see some more ruminations on leadership in the upcoming arc, but at this point, the character is built and we're just fine-tuning.

6. Durkon. This will likely change in the upcoming arc, but seriously, he hasn't changed at all from the start, and while character development isn't always change, we haven't learned much about him either. Again, though, I imagine this will change soon.

[orrion]

NPC & PC? Miko. Her alignment shifted. That takes friggin forever in a real game. She killed her Lord, which was inhumane and unlawful, putting her into the weird place known only as TN.

Deuces!

Paladins lose their powers for committing an Evil act. Her Evil act was killing Shojo.

However, alignments in general don't change due to a single action and Miko acted the same before and after, so I'd have to say her alignment remained the same. She just couldn't be a Paladin anymore.

----

Overall, I'd consider Haley and V to have undergone the most character development. Each of them were in their own respective shells and have since broken out of them (with V's break being having more.. flair, I guess).

[Porthos]

DaggerPen just touched on this, but I want to touch on it some more.

Roy's character development can be a bit subtle at times, since it can be slow paced and not as in-your-face as others, but I think he is one of more changed characters in the strip.

As I said, DaggerPen already covered a lot of it, but I want to examine a couple of things she only mentioned in passing in (much :smalltongue:) greater length: Roy's relationship with Elan and Roy growing into becoming a leader.

Roy/Elan dynamic
Roy's relationship with Elan at the beginning of the strip was... Not good shall we say. Even after the famous Bandit arc, it could still be strained at times. But over time, Roy not only came to realize Elan's strengths, but to actually rely on him. I've commented on it before and I'll comment on it again: Roy and Elan have developed a Big-Brother/Little-Brother relationship. Right down the teasing aspect of it.

That Elan looks up to Roy as the Father Figure/Big Brother that he never had while growing up is fairly obvious. What isn't quite as obvious, IMO, is how Elan might have reminded Roy of Eric. Roy never really got to have a little brother while growing up, and seeing a somewhat childish person around him might have dug into some deep wounds that he only barely realized. I don't think it was much of a coincidence that Roy mused aloud that Eric might have grown up to be a Bard when he got older. There might have been a lot of unrealized pain there. Possibly not. But, then again, Roy DID act a lot like Eugene around Elan.

Which also brings up the point that Roy realizes that he is a hell of a lot more like his father than he would like to admit. Sarcastic quips used to try to deal with a frustrating world. Casually dismissive of what he sees as unimportant people. And, yes, his initial relationship with Elan mirrors to at least some degree his own and Eugene's.

Yet as time moves on, he gets more and more comfortable around Elan (something which I noted way back in the late 600s but is becoming even more pronounced as time goes on). Yes, he does occasionally backslide under periods of immense stress. But as can be seen in the pyramid arc, he can quickly turn on a dime and genuinely compliment Elan and give a sincere apology to him.

I simply cannot see the current Roy/Elan relationship of today being portrayed in the first 150 strips or so.

Roy grows into the role of leader
There's the old cliche/trope of A Father to His Crew (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AFatherToHisMen), but in this case it does fit Roy. After massive and continuing development.

Originally, Roy could barely stand to be around these folks. He even had to be talked into to not dumping them all (save Durkon) by the side of the curb after he first saw them in actionThroughout the beginning of the strip it is fairly obvious that he really doesn't think much of the group he is leading, though he does think higher of some than others. Initially he sees little wrong with manipulating/lying to them to advance a personal goal.

Yet, in fits and starts, he starts to actually care for them all.

...

Well, with one notable exception. :smalltongue:

Not only does he come to care for them, he becomes fiercely protective of them. Even Belkar. He even offers them the chance to all go their separate ways but asks them to stay by his side.

I don't think it is much of a coincidence that when he was gone, the Order almost fell apart. OK, part of that was them being separated as well. Still, while Elan is the emotional glue that holds the group together, Roy is the one that keeps them focused toward a goal. And, dare I say, sane. When Roy was inches away from having a mental breakdown, Belkar, of all people, told him just how much the group needed him. Which, as an aside, I think shows just how much the entire group actually likes and respects Roy by that point. They were all distressed at seeing Roy start to lose it there, but weren't really sure how to deal with it. Well, untill Belkar cut to the chase, that is. :smallwink:

While a great deal of Roy's character development came early (which might be why some think he hasn't received much), he is receiving a constant, if at times in the background, reinforcement of it.

Take his recent travails in Girard's pyramid. There he faced the largest loss of his adventuring career (both in terms of goals and in personal loss). What followed afterwards was a short, intense, examination of Roy at his bleakest. Yet, thanks in large part to his friends, was able to emerge from it. Possibly stronger than he entered.

Roy hasn't gotten much character development? Like hell he hasn't. Sure, on the surface he may appear to be the at times exasperated world weary 'knight in sour armor' that he was at the beginning of the strip. But I am of the opinion that if one scratches even a little bit, there is a world of difference between Roy now and Roy of Strip #1.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Probably V then Belkar.

[martianmister]

V and Haley.

[Windscion]

Belkar. ... I'd still peg him as CE, but if he has a bit more time yet, he might just make it to CN.


Um, gonna disagree strenuously. He might, just maybe, make it to NE before he croaks. He's still evil, just getting a bit more comfortable with rules -- and how to work within/around them, rather than simply ignoring them completely.

V herself has IMO more development. And V has to find a way to deal with a guilt she cannot erase.

[LadyEowyn]

V has gone through a ton of character development in Books 4 and 5, going from arrogance to a crisis of confidence that culminated in selling his/her soul, to developing into a much better person (more humble, more considerate of others, greater value for life [even the lives of enemies]) who is dealing with a heavy burden of guilt.

Porthos has covered Roy's character development very well and comprehensively.

Elan's gone from being pure comic relief to taking life more seriously (though still with a strong sense of humour and fun), becoming competent in combat, having a relationship with Haley (and prioritizing it over the creation of dramatic moments), and accepting unpleasant truths about his family.

Haley's become far more emotionally connected to people (especially Elan and Roy), formed a strong relationship with Elan, become a leader by necessity if not by choice, and become a great deal more moral and altruistic (see: The Resistance; freeing slaves in Tyrania). Gold is a peripheral rather than driving motivation for her now.

I would say that Belkar has changed the least of any character besides Durkon - he's gone from being a Chaotic Evil jerk with impulse control issues who doesn't care about anyone, to being a Chaotic Evil jerk with impulse control issues who cares about his pet(s) - and possibly some of his teammates - and has very recently become less prone to doing things that are outright counterproductive to the party. But he's still largely the same guy in most respects.

[Gift Jeraff]

Haley > Elan > Belkar > V > Roy > Durkon

[DaggerPen]

Um, gonna disagree strenuously. He might, just maybe, make it to NE before he croaks. He's still evil, just getting a bit more comfortable with rules -- and how to work within/around them, rather than simply ignoring them completely.

V herself has IMO more development. And V has to find a way to deal with a guilt she cannot erase.

I agree that Belkar is still definitely evil, but I feel like as he learns to empathize with others, he may crawl up to the lower part of CN, because it's hard to actively enjoy the suffering of others when you've realized that they are actual people. But I'd rather not derail this rather interesting thread with an argument over it, so I'll just say that I think his development does include him becoming a less awful person, but I'm fine agreeing to disagree and waiting to see how it turns out.

[Aedilred]

If you want to be honest, truly honest, the humans have had more arcs dedicated to them in total. Belkar didn't really have anything going for him until the Thieves' Guild revelation and now with Durkula. Vaarsuvius has had some small ones, but has only recently gotten a lot of attention with the Black Dragon duel and the IFCC shenanigans.

While I'm also in the habit of thinking of those events as "recent", they're really... not, when you look at it. They happened around the 600-660 mark, so about a third of the comic ago (to date), and in real-life terms, about five years ago, so closer to half the comic's run.

[sengmeng]

I hate to be that nitpicker (lying, I LOVE nitpicking), but character growth and character development are not the same. I would say that Elan has grown the most, while Roy has been developed the most (meaning we know him best and understand his motivations more than the other characters).

[Keltest]

I hate to be that nitpicker (lying, I LOVE nitpicking), but character growth and character development are not the same. I would say that Elan has grown the most, while Roy has been developed the most (meaning we know him best and understand his motivations more than the other characters).

I disagree. Roy is not a terribly complex character. He fights Xykon because its the right thing to do, he is a fighter because he is a more martial person than his dad but is somewhat intimidated by the gods. He is fairly no-nonsense, but most of this we learn all the way back in DCF. Certainly we see MORE of those traits, but we don't learn things about him like an inferiority complex, or issues with both his parents and his brother being dead, or anything like that. Beyond the gates of heaven, the only other time I can think of where we really saw Roy tell us something new about himself was when V was telling him about the familicide, and he doesn't feel qualified to confront the moral consequences of it.

[Darth Paul]

I hate to be that nitpicker (lying, I LOVE nitpicking)....

Let's be honest with one another. We ALL love nitpicking. It's one of the main things we do around here.

[sengmeng]

I disagree. Roy is not a terribly complex character. He fights Xykon because its the right thing to do, he is a fighter because he is a more martial person than his dad but is somewhat intimidated by the gods. He is fairly no-nonsense, but most of this we learn all the way back in DCF. Certainly we see MORE of those traits, but we don't learn things about him like an inferiority complex, or issues with both his parents and his brother being dead, or anything like that. Beyond the gates of heaven, the only other time I can think of where we really saw Roy tell us something new about himself was when V was telling him about the familicide, and he doesn't feel qualified to confront the moral consequences of it.

I'm not sure what you disagree with, unless it's my definitions. My statement does not hinge on Roy's complexity. That's not what character development is. It's more like character establishment. Roy is followed the most, known the best, and has the most backstory. That's a developed character. Elan has grown the most (the other meaning of character, the kind that means integrity and personality) and V has probably changed the most. They're different things.

[Glodart]

I'll go with Durkon. Heck, he changed alignment, changed gods, changed state of life, even tried to kill Belkar twice!
Wait, that's not Durkon. Never mind, hiding myself in a corner now

[Jay R]

Rich's style of writing often includes having changes happen long before we see them. It also involves making us think something has happened that hasn't (Amun-Zora and Tarquin, for instance).

Therefore, until we know whether Belkar's attitude is a change or a fake,

until we know what Vaarsuvius is thinking now about the familicide,

until we know how much Roy is still reacting to what his father said,

until we know how much of the last arc was, for Haley, simply about her father,

until we know what Durkon is really thinking under the HPoH's ac tions,

until we know if Elan's understanding of story is simply a reaction to Tarquin or a realk re-evaluation of his approach,

it's impossible to know. Because for each member of the OotS, we don't know enough about what character development has in fact happened.

[grandpheonix]

Rich's style of writing often includes having changes happen long before we see them. It also involves making us think something has happened that hasn't (Amun-Zora and Tarquin, for instance).

Therefore, until we know whether Belkar's attitude is a change or a fake,

until we know what Vaarsuvius is thinking now about the familicide,

until we know how much Roy is still reacting to what his father said,

until we know how much of the last arc was, for Haley, simply about her father,

until we know what Durkon is really thinking under the HPoH's ac tions,

until we know if Elan's understanding of story is simply a reaction to Tarquin or a realk re-evaluation of his approach,

it's impossible to know. Because for each member of the OotS, we don't know enough about what character development has in fact happened.

Well now, lets not get hasty here. Ill go with my gut any day of the week. Belkars not faking anymore. Durkon did change alignment and roy is still a fighter.

Technically haleys changed the most. Outfits.

[LuisDantas]

I pretty much aggree with the OP, except to note that Durkon seems to be about to have his major developments in this storyline that has just began, and that Belkar does not have a place on my list at all. I don't think of him as a hero, even with any qualifiers.

[Mastikator]

Roy has gone through PLENTY of character development. In the beginning he would use deception to trick his party members into helping him get star metal, we wouldn't help save Elan when he was kidnapped by bandits and would give Miko preferential treatment because she was physically attractive to him.

That is not the Roy we know today.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html Roy learns that you shouldn't abandon a friend to their death just because said friend is not efficient in combat.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html Roy learns that you should judge people by their heart and not by their pretty face. He learned to respect women as actual people.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html Roy learns that honesty is better than deception.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html Roy learns that his father is beyond redemption and he needs to stop frustrating himself needlessly.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html Roy learns to think like a rogue.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html Roy makes very astute observations that make this my favorite episode.

Roy has made a lot of character development.

[Killer Angel]

I'd say Vaarsuvius and Haley on top, with Belkar just behind.

[veti]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html Roy learns that you shouldn't abandon a friend to their death just because said friend is not efficient in combat.

That comes so soon after the original decision, it's not really "growth" - it's more like coming to his senses after a momentary character-derailing aberration.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html Roy learns that you should judge people by their heart and not by their pretty face. He learned to respect women as actual people.

Doesn't stop him from insulting Miko in physical terms, even then. (Which part of "skinny, uptight ass" says "respectful of women" to you?)


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html Roy learns that honesty is better than deception.

That's a stretch, considering he doesn't stop using deception (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0403.html) it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) suits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html) his (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html) purposes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html).


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html Roy learns that his father is beyond redemption and he needs to stop frustrating himself needlessly.

Oh, no he doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html Roy learns to think like a rogue.

He was already pretty good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html) at that.

Sorry, I have to agree with the OP: Roy has changed very little, despite having spent all that time dead and on another plane. Of course, that's mostly because he was the most balanced/reasonable character to begin with.

[Mastikator]

That comes so soon after the original decision, it's not really "growth" - it's more like coming to his senses after a momentary character-derailing aberration.
What part of the story, prior to this point, establishes that this is aberrant?



Doesn't stop him from insulting Miko in physical terms, even then. (Which part of "skinny, uptight ass" says "respectful of women" to you?)
"Uptight ass" is gender neutral, everyone has a butthole. And just because he isn't perfect doesn't mean that it's not a huge improvement, he stopped judging her only by her outward looks, and also took in consideration of her personality, viewing her as an actual person.



That's a stretch, considering he doesn't stop using deception (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0403.html) it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) suits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html) his (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html) purposes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html). There's a world of difference in lying to your friends to get them to cooperate, and deceiving enemies and people who are only vaguely your ally. Like I said before, character development isn't a binary thing.



Oh, no he doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html). I don't see the relevance, care to explain?