Psion Beholder CRs.

[Tvtyrant]

I have some difficulties with the CR system of D&D. I am currently working on a Beholder who is also a level 11 Shaper Psion, and I am unsure what the true CR the Beholder would be. As a none-associated class the Beholder should have a CR of 19, but I doubt it would really be a threat to a level 18-19 party. Each of their casters is going to be better than the Beholder in a casting fight, and its rays have fairly low DCs.

Any help? How would you rank this NPC?

[atemu1234]

Rule #1: A class on tier with a Psion is never unassociated.
Rule #2: Beholders are pretty good for their CR anyway.

We're looking at CR 23 minimum, depending on the choice of powers.

[KillianHawkeye]

Rule #1: A class on tier with a Psion is never unassociated.
Rule #2: Beholders are pretty good for their CR anyway.

We're looking at CR 23 minimum, depending on the choice of powers.

When the OP is doubting that the monster is a threat to a level 18-19 party, responding that the monster is CR 23 is kinda missing the point IMO.



@OP: The whole CR system is kinda borked, and it doesn't respond very well to adding class levels to monsters that are significantly more powerful than the typical player races. I wish that I had better advice for you, but my strategy as a DM in the past has been to create foes that I expect to annihilate the PCs only to see them get their butts kicked.

[Urpriest]

Rule #1: A class on tier with a Psion is never unassociated.
Rule #2: Beholders are pretty good for their CR anyway.

We're looking at CR 23 minimum, depending on the choice of powers.

By the rules, it's CR 18 (round down, remember). By the rules, Psion is non-associated.

Whether that's balanced or not is another question, sure. But fundamentally, all of the powers of this thing are going to be somewhat dated at level 18 anyway.

One thing I like to keep in mind is that, by the rules, CR primarily has an impact on XP gain. It doesn't tell you whether something is an appropriate challenge or not, since the rules can't ever truly do that, challenge being dependent on the capabilities of the players. In your case, you've made a choice that doesn't really create a worthwhile challenge. Luckily, there's pretty much no possible reason to feel stuck with Psion 11. You could, for example, make the Beholder an Ardent instead. A Beholder Ardent 11 has access to 8th level powers with Practiced Manifester, which includes action economy tricks to let it leverage its rays more effectively.

[Baroknik]

How does your setting deal with magic-psionic transparency?
If they are non-transparent, psionic beholders get pretty scary -- AMF and blast away

[KillianHawkeye]

One thing I like to keep in mind is that, by the rules, CR primarily has an impact on XP gain. It doesn't tell you whether something is an appropriate challenge or not, since the rules can't ever truly do that, challenge being dependent on the capabilities of the players.

This is such a good point that I feel it deserves being highlighted, as it underscores one of the fundamental flaws with the CR system in general: the fact that party makeup and number of players has a MUCH greater effect on what kind of challenges the players can face than the individual capabilities of the monsters.

If you assume that the classes are all balanced such that they are all capable of facing the same challenges, then a simple numerical value can indeed be used to represent the difficulty of any kind of monster or other challenge. However, as we all know, the classes are not balanced. Fighting a beholder with a party of Fighters, Monks, and Rogues will be altogether different to facing the exact same challenge with a party of Wizards, Clerics, and Druids. The numbers, essentially, don't mean anything without some kind of translation that syncs them up with the kind of game you are playing.

[Tvtyrant]

How does your setting deal with magic-psionic transparency?
If they are non-transparent, psionic beholders get pretty scary -- AMF and blast away

We do magic=Psionics, so the AMF blocks psionic powers. Otherwise that would be one broken encounter...

@atemu1234 I am not sure I agree. The ML is going to be terrible, leaving it open to having its buffs stripped. It also has pretty low level powers, which have lower DCs and less effect.

@UrPriest can an Ardent use quintessence? That power is important to la plot.

[3WhiteFox3]

In terms of RAW (and probably RAI as well) a Psion Beholder gets the non-associated CR increase. Now, you can argue that a powerful class like Psion isn't fair to put on a Beholder, but those are the rules.

Psion 11 Beholder looks to be about CR 18 which would be an equal match for a level 18-19 party. However, equal CR to Level means that the encounter is supposed to be trivial and only act as a speed bump for the party, using up a fifth of their resources.

But, let's look at what Psion levels get you.

11 Psion hit dice (so an average of 71.5 hit points plus increasing it's Eye Ray DCs by 5).
2 Ability Score Increases (Recommended to put them into Int and Cha, bumping up Eye Ray DCs by another 1)
4 feats (one of which can be Ability Focus)
55 skill points
+5 BAB
+7 Will, +3 Ref + Fort
3 Psion Bonus Feats
11th level manifesting (up to 6th level powers)
11th level WBL

So 11 levels of Psion is pretty potent for the Beholder. Just by the HD and Cha increases you get Eye Rays DCs of 23, with Ability Focus factored in, that DC becomes 25. 11th level manifesting is 7~8 levels behind the party, but is backed up by the Beholder's natural abilities. It's True CR really depends on your optimization level and the party's op level.

With high-op, this Beholder could become really nasty. Grab Practiced Manifester to increase it's ML to 15, taking a Psicrystal is highly recommended (rule as DM that Psicrystals get feats and use some of the various Psicrystal tricks), take some nice psionic feats to round it out and you could have a very scary encounter, depending on how good the party is. Google the Psionic Tricks handbook as well, there are some nice ones that the Beholder should be able to use.

[atemu1234]

In terms of RAW (and probably RAI as well) a Psion Beholder gets the non-associated CR increase. Now, you can argue that a powerful class like Psion isn't fair to put on a Beholder, but those are the rules.

Psion 11 Beholder looks to be about CR 18 which would be an equal match for a level 18-19 party. However, equal CR to Level means that the encounter is supposed to be trivial and only act as a speed bump for the party, using up a fifth of their resources.

But, let's look at what Psion levels get you.

11 Psion hit dice (so an average of 71.5 hit points plus increasing it's Eye Ray DCs by 5).
2 Ability Score Increases (Recommended to put them into Int and Cha, bumping up Eye Ray DCs by another 1)
4 feats (one of which can be Ability Focus)
55 skill points
+5 BAB
+7 Will, +3 Ref + Fort
3 Psion Bonus Feats
11th level manifesting (up to 6th level powers)
11th level WBL

So 11 levels of Psion is pretty potent for the Beholder. Just by the HD and Cha increases you get Eye Rays DCs of 23, with Ability Focus factored in, that DC becomes 25. 11th level manifesting is 7~8 levels behind the party, but is backed up by the Beholder's natural abilities. It's True CR really depends on your optimization level and the party's op level.

With high-op, this Beholder could become really nasty. Grab Practiced Manifester to increase it's ML to 15, taking a Psicrystal is highly recommended (rule as DM that Psicrystals get feats and use some of the various Psicrystal tricks), take some nice psionic feats to round it out and you could have a very scary encounter, depending on how good the party is. Google the Psionic Tricks handbook as well, there are some nice ones that the Beholder should be able to use.

They'd probably be better off switching from Psion to Wilder in general - they'd be less MAD, at any rate.

[3WhiteFox3]

We do magic=Psionics, so the AMF blocks psionic powers. Otherwise that would be one broken encounter...

@atemu1234 I am not sure I agree. The ML is going to be terrible, leaving it open to having its buffs stripped. It also has pretty low level powers, which have lower DCs and less effect.

@UrPriest can an Ardent use quintessence? That power is important to la plot.

Since I missed this, Ardents can use Quintessence thanks to rules-backed DM fiat. The Substitute Powers ACF from the Mind's Eye (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) article on Ardents allows you to have an Ardent add powers or replace powers on a mantle and Quintessence could easily be one of the powers you substitute (adding it to the Creation or Time mantles seems pretty reasonable; Time is even missing it's 4th level power).

EDIT: Do not switch over to Wilder unless you really want the Beholder to be far less powerful, I love them but they are a pretty much a downgrade (only getting 5th level powers and far fewer powers known really hurts) to gain Wild Surge, which has it's own problems. Also, they can't use Quintessence without Expanded Knowledge. And you might want to reread the Beholder's entry, their Charisma is less than their Intelligence, the only way to rectify that is to buy a +4 charisma item, but even then, that's only two extra points, not good enough to justify not being a Psion.

[WhamBamSam]

Since I missed this, Ardents can use Quintessence thanks to rules-backed DM fiat. The Substitute Powers ACF from the Mind's Eye (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) article on Ardents allows you to have an Ardent add powers or replace powers on a mantle and Quintessence could easily be one of the powers you substitute (adding it to the Creation or Time mantles seems pretty reasonable; Time is even missing it's 4th level power).Expanded Knowledge and Psychic Chirurgery are also things, though the Substitute Power ACF is probably the simplest way to go.

[Raven777]

Personally, I'd drop Magic/Psionic transparency and allow it to cast in its own AMF, but I'm funny like that.

[Tvtyrant]

I decided to have the Beholder go into the Meditant prestige class instead. It ditches its normal feats for Psychic Meditation and 3 Deep Psychic Meditations, keeps Improved Initiative, and goes Psion 2/Psychic Meditant 10 (Psion bonus feat goes to Practiced Manifester.) How would this fair against a level 18 party? Higher levels are not my normal area.

Xorbek: Lawful Evil Shaper Psion/Meditant Beholder

11d8+12d4 (68+115) (183)

Str 13, dex 14, con 20, int 22, wisdom 15, charisma 16 (int 28, wisdom 21, charisma 22 when throat chakra is activated.)

AC 26, 33 with Inertial Armor manifested (all times, +7 AC), touch AC 12, Flatfooted AC 31

Fortitude 13, reflex 9, Will 22

BaB 13, grapple 18

Power Resistance 30 (From Meditant)

133 power points normally, 15 temporary power points from Meditant.

Feats: Improved Initiative, Deep Psychic Meditation (x3), Psychic Meditation, Practiced Manifester, Aptitude Focus (Eyebeams DC 27), Boost Construct, Skilled Telekinetic.

130,000 GP of items.

Worn Items:
Third Eye of Clarity (3,000 GP), Scout’s Headband (3400 GP), Talisman of Undying Fortitude (8,000 GP), Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000 GP), Ring of Anticipation (6,000 GP), Belt of Battle (12,000 GP), Amulet of Second Chances (40,000 GP), Headband of Conscious Effort (2,000 GP), Goggles of Minute Seeing (1250 GP), Sundark Goggles (10 GP), Ring of Arming (5,000 GP), Decanter of Endless Water (9,000 GP)
Lair Items:
Masterwork books (+2 to any knowledge check, Martial Lore, Autohypnosis or craft check when using them. 1 for each skill.)
5 Chaos Flasks (100 GP each)
1 Shapesand (100 GP)
2x each Feather Token
Alchemy Lab (500 GP)
Universal Solvent (50 GP)
Powers Known
1st level powers: Vigor, Inertial Armor, Create Sound, Astral Construct, Minor Creation (Psionic)
2nd: Ego Whip, Specified Energy Adaptation, Control Sound, Psionic Identify
3rd: Dispel Psionics, Time Hop, Psionic Glyph of Warding, Mental Barrier
4th: Psionic Divination, Psionic Fabricate, Quintessence, Psionic Dimension Door
5th: Anticipatory Strike, Psionic Major Creation, Change Fate, Hail of Crystals
6th: Temporal Acceleration

Encounter specifics.

Xorbek resides within a large complex, which is devoted to his studies into psionics and alchemy. It is built as an underground cistern carved within a mountain, divided by water into Xorbek’s home and a shallow lake filled with monsters. This lake is filled from a Decanter of Endless Water that Xorbek acquired in his youth, which he turns off when it threatens to overfill and on again when it begins to empty (it leaks into the surrounding rock.) The entrance to the cistern ends on a ledge across the lake from the decanter, and there is no way across except for flying or swimming.

The ceiling above the lake is divided into a series of ledges, which make up the home of Xorbek. Each ledge is carved as a book shelf or table, but sloped and floorless so that standing is impossible. Glyphs of Dispel Magic go off if anyone other than Xorbek enters one in the hopes of dropping the enemy into the water below.

In the pool are a colossal monstrous crab and a few Piranha Swarms, the crab being too slow to catch the swarms and the swarms being unable to harm the hard shelled crab. If an opponent attempts to attack Xorbek in his home he uses his Anti-Magic Cone to drop the opponent into the water, often keeping the cone on them so that they cannot magically escape from his pet’s grasp.

Xorbek feeds his water guardians daily using food delivered to him by a nearby pirate town. Xorbek offers protection from reprisals and buys supplies from the town frequently through a charmed Hadozee merchant named Jorulee, in return for which they provide him a steady source of food.

The most eye drawing aspect of Xorbek’s lair is the large number of curiosities preserved by quintessence. Xorbek produces large amounts of the substance and smears it liberally over removed limbs and organs to be sold to other individuals that are devotees of grafting or symbiotes. He also keeps a great many poisons that have been created using his Creation and Minor Creation powers in Quintessence to prevent them from decaying.

The most frightening item in Xorbek’s collection is a piece of the Tarrasque which he acquired at tremendous cost. If the Quintessence were removed the Tarrasque would quickly regrow inside the room and free itself. Xorbek keeps a bottle of Universal Solvent to pour on the quintessence covered skin in case he needs a distraction from opponents. He also made sure the wall of the northwest area of his cistern is less than 400 ft. thick but the rest is much thicker, so that he may Dimension Door out of the area but any enemy would have to know exactly where to jump to follow him.

In combat Xorbek starts activating his throat chakra to increase his DCs and then by creating an Astral Construct with Overchanneling to create a 9th level construct; it always has flight but other properties change depending on his opponents. Xorbek then drops any evident casters into the water using his anti-magic cone, and if the enemy is clumped together their entire group. If the enemy remains on the ledge he uses Temporal Acceleration and buffs himself while spraying them with his eye rays.