Is it worth it? Vital Feat Tree

[Crimson Wolf]

Okay for my third session of Is it worth it I bring up the vital stike feat tree. Now I don't mean just gaining vital strike, or even improved and greater, here I mean every single one that benifits from the original vital strike feat. So is it worth gaining every single of the following?

Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital Strike
Devastating Strike
Improved Devastating Strike
Death or Glory

Now alone a single vital strike may be a good boon, heck even improved and greater can be worth it for a three feat tree, but using six feats in total to call compliment each other would it be worth spending that many points in your progression for a single, devastating attack? Keep in mind you only get one hit. Now you may choose to improve this even further by adding Deadly Finish, Critical (any) and Wave Strike. Putting all of your might in just a single attack (even after wave strike now just one attack on each enemy) to kill with as large a hit as possible. I would like to hear from everyone, is it worth taking all those feats for a single move?

[Fax Celestis]

I cannot think of a single thing worth spending that many feats on. Even trippers only spend four or five, and two of those are prereqs.

[Crimson Wolf]

Well to help with anyone not familiar with it. Vital lets an attack roll two weapon damage dice, improved makes this three, greater makes this four. So actually is like four attacks in one, then Devastating makes this gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage for each extra of those dice rolled giving you +6 attack and damage. Death or Glory now gives you attack, damage, and crit conformation and at BAB increments giving you +1 more for a total of +7 at max for that feat (only on large or larger enemies). Deadly finish is if you lower anything to -1 it makes a fort save (10 plus the damage you just dealt) of dies on the spot.

Simply put, one attack with a giant dice roll of doom.

[Erik Vale]

Have you heard of Furious Gaurdian?
As a class feature it can grant up to 3 fighter bonus feats, but you don't need to meet the prereqs. And this feat line [if I remember right] doesn't need the build up to work, so you could grab from the end [Unlike say, Snap Shot, As you need Snapshot for Improved Snapshot to do anything, and you'll want Combat Reflexes anyway, etc etc.].

I think it's only really worth it if you're a Scout Rogue, for on turns you don't charge but skirmish.

[Crimson Wolf]

Hmm, I have not heard of that one, which book is it in? Id like to give it a look over. And I guess this tree would only a fighter more than likely. Now there is a feat for Barb's that involves Vital Strike called Furious Finish. This is just ungodly if you only face a single enemy while raging. What it does is you do your vital strike feat, but instead of rolling everything is done to the max damage possible though ends your rage right after. That kinda damage you would do with a absolute 100% max roll is just evil.

[Fax Celestis]

So for four feats, you get to roll 8d6? That averages out to 28 damage. That's not really that impressive for four feats.

[Fax Celestis]

I mean, seriously. If you want to roll that many d6s, play a TWF rogue with short swords and sneak attack someone. You can get that same 8d6 at 7th level, and can spend your feats on something actually worthwhile.

[Crimson Wolf]

4D whichever your weapon is. Then the bonus on damage from all the other abilities. If not a large target another instant 6, if critical that 6 can be multiplied, if larger target add the 7 with an instant 13 that also can be multiplied, though MUST be a kill hit else the enemy you just hit comes back instantly for an attack. Now these moves don't have to be kill hits every time, but can still stack damage fast and hard. Of course it is a huge huge price to pay by giving up so many feats. Not a build I would use at all since if I play I go Alchemist and go the bomb route but right now dm a game.


Again just a discussion if all these feats really are worth it.

Edit: Also if the player did Elven Curve Blade it could actually be all D10 that gets added on itself

[Gemini476]

Do note that at higher levels most PF your damage is probably going to be static or otherwise not multiplied by Vital Strike - four attacks for [W]+Str+misc will probably be better than one attack for 4[W]+Str+misc.

(That's not to mention stuff like critfishing or whatever, in which case getting more attacks is even better.)

I'm not that well-versed in Pathfinder, but I honestly don't really see the appeal with Vital Strike.

[Fax Celestis]

I still don't think so. I wouldn't use those feats even if I took them for free.

Although they might have some merit on someone who gets a bunch of bonus damage (like sneak attack), but those kinds of characters never get enough feats to take them, or enough BAB to qualify when they're still relevant.

[Crimson Wolf]

Hmm I guess it would all depend on the players choices. Now a Human Fighter at level twenty would have 22 Feats to spend if you made it to level 20. Only class I can see this working on to be honest. Barb has a nifty feat only for it but without the bonus feats every other level you would end up wasting potential rage feats that can save your life. Now someone could try to make this work if they somehow under some odd strange way gained feats through storyline but, I just don't see DM's letting that happen as a reward no matter what deed that just accomplished.

I guess the selling point is a giant one strike that deals large damage, plus a bit more on crits can be interesting to some folks, as I said personally I prefer the mad bomber dealing upwards of a hundred or more. But this might sell for someone that might prefer doing singular attacks (especially if they have an item or potion like true strike, but only works once per round) that he knows he can hit, and just adds everything up for a mighty finish.

[Erik Vale]

Furious Guardian [D20pfsrd]/Ulfen Guard [Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat] (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/ulfen-guard)

The only way I truly see it as useful would be to take it as a dip [3 level minimum] with Scout Rogue, followed through with the unlimited range/ignore concealment for SA items, then move, roll enough dice to cause death buy massive damage, and repeat, all using you bow. Unfortunately you can't use Vital Strike with a charge, making the 8th level benifet of the Scout Archetype less useful.
Edit: Bonus points if you convince your DM to allow occultist [Binder in 3.5 by Radience house, so 3rd Party] and bind Silvainous [I think, the elven archer spirit] to give your shot +20 to hit as swift action 1/5 rounds.

[Crimson Wolf]

FG doesn't get anymore feats than a fighter would, only bonus abilities on top of getting feats as if it was the same level as a fighter. So back on my point only fighter players might find this useful xD I guess what would make this entertaining is if anyone who has taken these and used them could comment here as well and put their pov on this all.

[Erik Vale]

It doesn't, but it ignores prerequisites, allowing you to skip to the end of the tree.

[Crimson Wolf]

Re read it, it says for preq it adds towards fighter levels in terms of meeting them, that is all it says for feats and the preq.

[StreamOfTheSky]

First of all, Death or Glory is a hilariously awful feat that makes you blatantly worse off than you would have been normally every time you use it.

Now, for the Vital Strike feats themselves.....No, they are almost never worth it. The bonus damage is not enough to justify the feat, keeping in mind it's not just blanket bonus damage; it's specifically only for when making an attack action. Not spring attacking. Not spell striking (Magus). Not charging. And of course, not full attacking.

As others said, most of your damage will come from places other than base weapon dice. Str mod, enhancement bonus, power attack, etc... And most PC weapons tend to only go up to about 2d6, and it's much worse than that for....say... typical rogue weapons.

There is one exception, though. Natural attacks can be optimized to get 12d6 or more base damage dice fairly easily. VS line is then adding +12d6 or so with each feat and can indeed be worth it. You want Improved Natural Attack feat, Strong Jaw spell (it's a level 3 Ranger spell, if you want to get it on a wand/scroll cheaper or on a potion at all), size-increasing spells (enlarge person works on eidolons), Improved Damage and Large/Huge evolutions (for eidolons), and Behemoth Hippopotamus beast shape form (for druids and others using beast/wild shape for this; has the highest base damage of any legal form....4d8, I think).

As you can see, the classes best suited for such a build are Druid and (Synthesist) Summoner. One thing people doing such a build should consider is if it's worth it to dip 4 levels in a full BAB class so you can get the +16 BAB and timely feat slot to acquire Greater VS. If you're willing to sacrifice raw versatile power (spells; eidolon or wild shape advancement) to further your one-trick-pony build, it's worth it. Make sure if doing so to dip Barbarian to take Furious Finish.

Furious Finish

You channel all of your rage into one massive blow to crush your enemy.

Prerequisites: Rage class feature, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat, you can choose not to roll your damage dice and instead deal damage equal to the maximum roll possible on those damage dice. If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).

[Erik Vale]

Re read it, it says for preq it adds towards fighter levels in terms of meeting them, that is all it says for feats and the preq.


Formal Training (Ex) *When selecting this dedication, the furious guardian gains a bonus feat. She must select this feat from the list of fighter bonus feats. **Additionally, the furious guardian adds her level to any levels of fighter she has for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats (if she has no fighter levels, treat her furious guardian levels as fighter levels). ***The furious guardian must be at least 3rd level to select this dedication.

*Clause 1, you get a fighter bonus feat. So, you get a bonus feat. You don't need to meet bonus feat prerequisites unless you're stated to.
**Clause 2, Separated by the Additionally, this means she is treated as having additional fighter levels = Furious Guardian levels for meeting prerequisites.
***Clause 3, Minimum level to take the ability.

Greater Vital Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---final)
A Combat feat, therefore a Fighter Bonus feat, that meets clause one. As usual for bonus feats, you don't need to meet the prerequisites.


Ok, I've reread it. *Rereads your bit*
Hmm, your right, the only thing it says about prerequisites is that you count as having fighter levels... That doesn't affect grabbing Greater Vital Strike at level 8 [5 X/3 Furious Guardian] at all.

[grarrrg]

*Clause 1, you get a fighter bonus feat. So, you get a bonus feat. You don't need to meet bonus feat prerequisites unless you're stated to.

Incorrect.
You MUST meet prerequisites unless the 'bonus feat ability' specifically says you may ignore them.

[Erik Vale]

I've seen it stated both ways by players, and RAW specifies it both ways with individual lists of bonus feats, could you provide a conclusive quote as to bonus feats requiring you to meet their prerequisites?

[Prime32]

If you want to deal a lot of damage in a single attack, take the Pummeling Style feat from Advanced Classes Guide (as a full-round action, make a full attack and add together the damage of every attack that hits; if one is a crit they all are). If you want to do it while moving then take Pummeling Charge (use Pummeling Style as the attack at the end of a charge). If you want to do it as a standard action then there's Rhino Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rhino-charge-combat).

[grarrrg]

I've seen it stated both ways by players, and RAW specifies it both ways with individual lists of bonus feats, could you provide a conclusive quote as to bonus feats requiring you to meet their prerequisites?

The default ruling is that you must meet a feat's prerequisites.
Normally you only get a feat every odd level.
Bonus feats are extra feats gained through advancement in certain classes.
Some class's bonus feats _specifically state_ that you may ignore prerequisites, such as Monk and Ranger. Fighter bonus feats do NOT have a special statement saying the prerequisites are ignored, therefore they default to the normal rule that you must meet all prerequisites.

[Bluydee]

Furious Finish is literally the only reason. Prematurely end rage to max weapon damage on a vital strike, and using rage cycling you can deal pretty nice damage.

[MeeposFire]

They are not even close to worth it sadly. The game really needs to allow weapon users an effective standard action but instead you get the insult that is this line of feats. Honestly these would be almost OK if they were free even then it would be a little weak but at least they were free. Paying one feat would be palatable though costing more than it should. Paying three is an insult.

Oddly vital strike would work with spring attack in 3e where it used an attack action but officially in PF it would no longer work with spring attack. I do think they made a FAQ declaring it works (did not change the rules to make it actually work they just declared it works) but it still is pretty bad what with the other changes to spring attack.

[Fax Celestis]

I remember in beta vital strike being better. Didn't it do something like multiply your weapon plus status damage bonuses by the number of attacks granted to you by your BAB +1? Because that would be worthwhile. Move as a move action, standard action Vital Strike, or stand still and full-attack for the chance for more crits/extra dice damage (like sneak attack).

The big problem with it as it is now is that the majority of your damage at higher levels doesn't come from your weapon, it comes from your adds, so Vital Strike simply multiplies the weakest part of your attack in exchange for removing he opportunity to inflict the strongest part of your attack multiple times.

[grarrrg]

but officially in PF it would no longer work with spring attack. I do think they made a FAQ declaring it works (did not change the rules to make it actually work they just declared it works) but it still is pretty bad what with the other changes to spring attack.

FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyy) in question

Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.

[Crimson Wolf]

Hmm okay so there is no players currently here that think it is worth it? Lol man I would figure at least someone might put their two cents in for it. Now about the druid yeah that sounds like it would be def worth it with enhanced nat attacks if they chose that path. But I did put an example that someone using a d10 weapon might enjoy them a lot better if said player wanted just a single attack and a way to make that one attack have a high bonus (like true strike since it only works on the one attack and not mutliple) instead of a multiattack.


Of course I prefer keeping at range when I play so I don't see this being used for me while I'm a player :P But nice to at least see peoples input but I really wanted to hear from anyone who took these feats on how they make it worth it for them or how they enjoyed it.

[grarrrg]

Hmm okay so there is no players currently here that think it is worth it? Lol man I would figure at least someone might put their two cents in for it.

The _idea_ of what Vital Strike does is sound, and people love the option. It gives you a 'mini-full-attack' that you can use as a Standard Action, leaving your Move action free. Psuedo-Pounce if you will.
The _problem_ is that they broke it up into 3 feats, when it really only deserves to be 1. If it was a different approach, then it might deserve a 2nd feat.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I still think Vital Strike would've been much more balanced and useful if it worked like this instead (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?315017-Vital-Strike-changes).

Current Vital Strike:

Vital Strike (Combat)


You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

Proposed changes to Vital Strike:

Vital Strike (Combat)


You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the Spring Attack feat, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage equal to your Base Attack Bonus. This extra damage, unlike most non random damage bonuses, is not multiplied on a critical hit, but are merely added to the total.

Improved VS: Requires BAB +11, instead add double your BAB in damage

Greater VS: Requires BAB +16, instead add triple your BAB in damage


Why the change?

1. Firstly, not letting Spring Attack combine with it is a great injustice and needs to be fixed. Note in addition to being better for casters and better in general and w/o two feat pre-reqs, Flyby Attack works with Vital Strike.

2. Vital Strike tries to make skirmishing viable, but does it based on the worst metric possible: base weapon damage. This is bad because it doesn't work best for the agile guy with a weak weapon darting in and out. It works best for the druid and his animal companion T-Rex with Improved Natural Attack and Strongjaw spell using the biggest, most pumped up gigantic weapon damage possible.

3. Starts out at level 6 being slightly worse than original VS with a greatsword (extra 2d6, average of 7 damage), but gradually gains ground, I think, being pretty scary by the time Greater VS rolls around, and making not full attacking a viable option into the upper levels.

Potential issues:

1. As with anything based on BAB, monsters with gigantic piles of HD for their CR can break the hell out of this. DMs are encouraged to exercise caution.
Possible solution: Cap the damage benefit from VS at BAB +10 (+10 damage), from IVS at BAB +15 (+30 damage) and GVS at BAB +20 (+60 damage). Probably a good limit in general, still leads to potentially very high damage for a mid CR opponent even with the caps, though.

[Psyren]

Pummeling Style is basically the fixed version of Vital Strike - I suggest you use that.

[Aliek]

I see it being worthy just if you're optimizing natural weapons and/or size increases. I'm not too sure how that goes on PF, but on 3.P, it's easy to get many dies of damage. Still not better than charging with multipliers, but it's harder to counter, especially if you also got travel devotion:smallbiggrin: Mobility(not the feat) all the way!

[Feralventas]

I do admit that Vital Strike is intended for PF content, but I found a good use for it in use for combative Warlock characters. In melee, Eldritch Glaive makes several attacks with mods that are mostly likely to hit, so it's not as great in Melee, but for a ranged blaster, being able to hand out two and later three times your normal Eldritch Blast damage can be very potent. At 9th level when the first feat after a warlock's iterative attacks come up, dealing 8d6 with One feat isn't too bad compared to the 4d6 you had before, and saves you from needing to take invocations to spread the damage around. This combo made for some excellent air-superiority adversaries when coupled with Eldritch Spear to get 250ft range and Fel Flight. At 15th level this can pop up again to bring eldritch blast from 7d6 to 21d6 on a single target, plus debuffs from Essence invocations. With a dip from Cleric into Eldritch Disciple, it can also facilitate high-value healing bursts via Gift of the Divine Patron.

Vital Strike's damage comes up as valuable when you're investing to manipulate into high weapon damage effects. This can be done via Sizing manipulation (Enlarge Person, Lead Blades, wielding a larger weapon in the first place as per Titan Mauler Barbarian, and the like). These, again, give you a higher base weapon damage so that the Vital Strike feat isn't just an extra d8 or 2d6. I'm doing this with a Ranger/Monk gestalt, though there are other ways to get the spells and effects listed above, and when we hit 6th level (e6) I expect to be either handing out 6d8+6 or 6d8+12 depending on whether I have a full attack or move+attack with Vital Strike; it's not the most potent means, but it works out alright.

On its own, Vital Strike isn't of much value to folks whose damage is mostly in their modifiers. Rogues' precision damage doesn't multiply, nor a warrior's Power Attack, or an archer's Deadly Aim, or a fencer's Piranha Strike; it's more worthwhile to apply it to several attacks and eventually be handing out a d6+20 twice rather than 2d6+20 once.

Edit: The Mythic version of Vital Strike multiplies other things and would be worthwhile as a regular feat for the ones noted immediately above.

[Erik Vale]

-Snip-

I just thought 'So use it as a cryptic', until I remembered that it's base damage is 1d6, and it gets bonus dice to keep it up... I wonder if this happened to be deliberate?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I just thought 'So use it as a cryptic', until I remembered that it's base damage is 1d6, and it gets bonus dice to keep it up... I wonder if this happened to be deliberate?

Probably. Paizo itself did the same thing with alchemist's bomb damage in how it's written such that only the first d6 gets multiplied. Otherwise, VS line would have been nice on a bomber alchemist who didn't want to use Fast Bombs and just do one big attack, especially combined w/ targeted bomb admixture, cognatogen, and the kirin strike feat. Oh well.