Undead Slayer - Warlock

[Elboxo]

Hi everyone! I have been thinking of ideas for a new 10th level character in an undead-heavy campaign (currently chasing down the four horsemen of the apocalyspe).

The DM is highly familiar with core and likes to stick within core when he can and a few of the players are either completely or relatively new, but have been playing since level 1, so anything cheesy is not helpful. The party currently (minus myself) is a Fighter, a (LG) Paladin, a Cleric and a Druid, all 9th or 10th level. So role of arcanist or rogue is mostly up to me, though the druid has been gifted an item to search as a rogue with a +15 bonus to search.

Initially I wanted to play a Sorcerer, which may happen if my DM doesn't like venturing out with a Warlock. I realise a sorcerer may have more versatility and whatnot, but I at this time I'm on the fence and wanted to design a Warlock, most likely a Glaivelock, if that is allowed, and with a vendetta against the undead and demons (the discrimination of a Paladin, with the powers of a Warlock), so something kind of like the comic book character, Blade, if you will.

For becoming a Glaivelock (and sticking to core as much as possible for feats and things) I was thinking of:

Human Warlock 10

H - Improved Initiative
1 - Combat Reflexes
3 - Weapon Finesse
6 - Power Attack
9 - Cleave

Stat priority would be CON>DEX>INT-CHA so I have the HP and concentration to survive in combat, and make touch attacks as well as have decent ranged attacks.
This would allow me to enlarge person with a wand, then control some area and roll out a constant stream of Eldritch Glaives and AoOs, with Cleave letting me keep taking out enemies. Obviously Strength would have to be at least 13 for power attack, so I feel like I may be increasing my own MAD currently.

For Invocations I was thinking:

Least:

Eldritch Glaive, Baleful Utterance, See the Unseen (I am still resident arcanist, and seeing invisible things alonside having Detect Magic at will, would be helpful)

Lesser:

Fell Flight, Walk Unseen, and then perhaps Flee the Scene? Or Relentless/Voracious Dispelling (For the same reason as above) or even Baneful Blast for Undead.


I think this could be great, but might also like to really utilize that high dexterity, changing some feats and invocations around to make me more nimble, perhaps using Mobility and tumbling to move around in combat and use Eldritch Glaive.

If anyone has some advice on Invocations (Complete Mage, Complete Arcance should both be okay) or feats (preferably core, or something fairly commonly used (Not Dragon Magazines, getting Eldritch Glaive itself may be a stretch) which help the fluff of the character being an undead hunter, that would be hugely appreciated!

I have checked out several handbooks, but like I said I want to stay inside core (SRD: PHB, DMG, UA) as much as possible, unless I can make a good case for an outside source.

Thanks!

[Taveena]

Cleave is not a very useful feat, in all honesty - Eldritch Glaive is already awkward enough and it might not even WORK due to it not technically being a weapon. (It should, but the ruling is awkward regardless.) It's generally not a very useful feat - why get one extra attack in very situational circumstances when you could just hit all the mooks with Eldritch Chain?

Anyway, I'd suggest going into Hellfire Warlock. 6d6 extra damage on every Eldritch Glaive poke is very helpful, and a Wand of Bodily Restoration isn't hard to get your hands on. If you're worried about the extra actions, go Obtain Familiar -> Improved Familiar and have your imp minion use it. (Hellfire Warlock is easy to find, free web enhancement.)

[Spindrift]

I think there was a fair bit of debate about wether you can even use power attack with eldritch glaive,
so you may want to make sure your DM signs off on that before you burn a feat, also if it's treated as a glaive you won't be able to use weapon finesse with it, I think.

[Elboxo]

Cleave is not a very useful feat, in all honesty - Eldritch Glaive is already awkward enough and it might not even WORK due to it not technically being a weapon. (It should, but the ruling is awkward regardless.) It's generally not a very useful feat - why get one extra attack in very situational circumstances when you could just hit all the mooks with Eldritch Chain?


Very good point, maybe I'll do that, what would you suggest in alteration of the Power Attack and Cleave feats?


I think there was a fair bit of debate about wether you can even use power attack with eldritch glaive,
so you may want to make sure your DM signs off on that before you burn a feat, also if it's treated as a glaive you won't be able to use weapon finesse with it, I think.

I wasn't going to use Power Attack at all, it was to obtain cleave to keep attacks/round up. As for finessing... I think it is a grey area at best, it DOES just say "as a reach weapon" yet the weapon is not specificed as technically being a physical object, or requiring being held in two hands, and I have no idea if it would add damage from your strength score or not. Do you have any suggestions or recommendations to fix this?

Thanks for the observations, guys.

[Spindrift]

Did some reading and found arguments that as it's a weapon-like spell-like ability, it should be finessible

If you search hard enough you'll likely also find a compelling argument that it isn't though.
In the end it's probably best to see what your DM thinks, even without dex to hit a touch attack is still pretty decent most of the time.

Most arguments I've seen suggest you won't get your strength score cause it's not a physical object, it's like swinging an untyped energy spell.

It should be 1-handed though, as you only need 1 hand free to use invocations, so you could use a shield alongside it, but I'm not sure the "no spellfailure chance in light armour" applies to shields.

[Taveena]

By default it doesn't, but it's not hard to get ASF to 0 with some combination of Mithril, Feycraft, and Twilight.

[Spindrift]

Yeah, if you can get such a shield custom made it's only a bit of a price bump.

[Red Fel]

I'm a bit confused by your limitations on sources.

You say "Core," as if it's a word that means something on its own. While often taken to mean PHB and DMG, it is occasionally expanded to include MIC, SpellCom, and sometimes even the Completes. You further mention that you're using a Warlock (CArc), that CArc and CM are both available, and that you allow UA.

Could you please elaborate on what, specifically, you are or are not allowing? It's kind of hard to get a bead on what will or will not be kosher.

As an aside, you mention you've read handbooks; have you read Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708-Shinken-s-Guide-to-Melee-Warlocks)? It's an excellent resource on Glaivelocks, cites its sources well (so you can know what, if anything, you have to omit), and does a good job of making the case for any given element, in case you need to pitch it to your DM.

If your campaign allowed gestalt, I would say to go with Enlightened Spirit, since +1 per die of EB damage (and ignoring incorporeal miss chance) is very useful in an undead-heavy campaign; barring that, avoid it.

As for invocations, my usual advice is to use the ones that don't require saves - that is, tactical ones rather than directly offensive ones. This is further reinforced by the fact that these are undead, and thus immune to various things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). Of relevant note, Undead are immune to: Critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain or energy drain. Damage to physical ability scores. Fatigue and exhaustion. Poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and death effects. Anything that requires a Fort save, unless it works on objects. Mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). They don't breathe, so technically they're also immune to gas effects.
That limits your options. For example, the lesser invocation Charm is useless here, since it's mind-affecting. Likewise, Painful Slumber of Ages (also, sleep effect), and Wall of Gloom. Further, Walk Unseen and Darkness will be ineffective against any undead with Lifesense. So keep that in mind.

Instead, invest in tactically useful invocations. Some people go with Fell Flight, for example, and it's definitely useful, but The Dead Walk can get you an undead flying mount, and as a bonus it also has functions other than that. And in an undead campaign, it helps to have undead minions of your own.

Look into some battlefield control options. For example, Caustic Mire and Chilling Tentacles are very good for controlling enemy movement. (Caustic Mire is doubleplus good if you have a pyro in your party.)

[Spindrift]

If it's an undead campaign heavy in evil clerics though, having a mount that can be rebuked could be a liability.

[Red Fel]

If it's an undead campaign heavy in evil clerics though, having a mount that can be rebuked could be a liability.

Valid point.

[Elboxo]

I'm a bit confused by your limitations on sources.

You say "Core," as if it's a word that means something on its own. While often taken to mean PHB and DMG, it is occasionally expanded to include MIC, SpellCom, and sometimes even the Completes. You further mention that you're using a Warlock (CArc), that CArc and CM are both available, and that you allow UA.

...

As for invocations, my usual advice is to use the ones that don't require saves - that is, tactical ones rather than directly offensive ones. This is further reinforced by the fact that these are undead, and thus immune to various things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). Of relevant note, Undead are immune to: Critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain or energy drain. Damage to physical ability scores. Fatigue and exhaustion. Poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and death effects. Anything that requires a Fort save, unless it works on objects. Mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). They don't breathe, so technically they're also immune to gas effects.
That limits your options. For example, the lesser invocation Charm is useless here, since it's mind-affecting. Likewise, Painful Slumber of Ages (also, sleep effect), and Wall of Gloom. Further, Walk Unseen and Darkness will be ineffective against any undead with Lifesense. So keep that in mind.

Instead, invest in tactically useful invocations. Some people go with Fell Flight, for example, and it's definitely useful, but The Dead Walk can get you an undead flying mount, and as a bonus it also has functions other than that. And in an undead campaign, it helps to have undead minions of your own.

Look into some battlefield control options. For example, Caustic Mire and Chilling Tentacles are very good for controlling enemy movement. (Caustic Mire is doubleplus good if you have a pyro in your party.)

Sorry, to clear up some of the confusion about what sources are allowed, the DMG and PHB and anything on the SRD, except for Psionics would be allowed. My DM is not hugely familiar with some wider sources, such as Complete Arcane, Complete Mage or the Spell Compendium, and as a few of the party are new or newish players, he likes to keep things fairly simple. That being said, I have been allowed some feats and spells in the past at the disclosure of the DM, that were from SC and Complete Adventurer. Basically, if it ain't on the SRD, I will have to ask my DM, he's been pretty open so far as it doesn't introduce new things into the world, such as suddenly making a Psionic character in a non-psionic world.

You made some excellent points about undead with Lifesense! Also, I completely agree with trying to avoid invocations that offer saves, even though we fight undead fairly regularly (the last 3 'boss fights' and many, many undead along the way) I have considered Charm/Beguiling Influence or perhaps another utility invocation to assist as either social face or arcane user of the party.

I see the The Dead Walk being very versatile for transport, except

It requires a creature as a desired mount (i.e. find and kill something that can fly/is too cool to pass up)
We have a viligant L/G Paladin in the party
Unless I have tonnes of Onyx on hand I won't be performing many permanent animations
Many creatures we fight are undead, which I cannot animate after we destroy them
I'm not sure how much time I would spend applying Zombie/Skeleton templates to killed foes, in combat, and slowing down the game


I suppose the counter to point 1 is that I would only have to find one creature of 10HD or less that flies (non-magically) to make a zombie out of it permanently,
and to point 2, one might say that if I want to take the road of party face I can take Beguiling Influence and convince the Paladin that I have no evil intentions.

If I wanted to take The Dead Walk, perhaps I could take:

Least:
Eldritch Glaive, Beguiling Influence and Baleful Utterance

Lesser:
The Dead Walk, Flee the Scene (battlefield movement so I can use Eldritch Glaive for the full next round) and one of Walk Unseen/Relentless Dispelling/Voracious Dispelling

No greater invocations until next level, but I think I'd take Caustic Mire or Chilling Tentacles, or even Wall of Perilous Flame (double damage to undead)


This has all been really helpful information! Any further ideas about feats? We don't play with point builds and can't move around 3 points after rolling, as a House Rule.
I think I can make a case for Finessing an Eldritch Glaive, so having a fairly high dexterity (no miss-chance or armour invocations) and perhaps some more mobility on the battlefield would increase my survivability.

[nerghull]

If your main purpose is to slash undead with a big shiny eldritch glaive, you can look at the Enlighted Spirit (Complete Mage), a PrC with little bonuses to undead slashing.
If you want to battlefield control, you have to stay in the warlock line or get the Eldritch Theurge/Disciple in the same book, the later being basically a cleric/warlock, it can be useful as for fighting undeads.

[Elboxo]

If your main purpose is to slash undead with a big shiny eldritch glaive, you can look at the Enlighted Spirit (Complete Mage), a PrC with little bonuses to undead slashing.
If you want to battlefield control, you have to stay in the warlock line or get the Eldritch Theurge/Disciple in the same book, the later being basically a cleric/warlock, it can be useful as for fighting undeads.

For whatever reason I had entirely overlooked Eldritch Disciple. This looks fantastic! From what I can see I could enter as a disciple of Olidammara and gain the Trickery domain and fulfil the role of party face, if I alter stat priority to make Charisma high.

So Cleric 3/Warlock 2/ Eldritch Disciple 5 Would land me 7th level Divine casting, 4d6 Eldritch Blast and 4 invocations, as well as bumping up my HD to d8

However I think I would be increasing MAD, as I would have to keep Wisdom to at least 14, with a Constitution score and Dexterity about the same (HP and Finesse), with an Int score of at least 10 if I want to be playing the party face, with Beguiling Influence and 16 Charisma I'd be able to get Bluff and Diplomacy up to 21.

Great advice!