Sleep/Dream Caster?

[Nettlekid]

One amusing archetype of a character with great power is to appear to have no power, and a sleepy Wizard fits the bill pretty well. I know there are some sleep and dream-related spells and abilities out there already, but I'd like input to see how they work together and how they work at all (some of them seem kind of confusing, and they're from a variety of sources.)

The Lucid Dreaming skill from the Manual of the Planes. Supposedly broken, since it gives you reality manipulation inside a dream? But it needs to be inside a "dreamscape" to work.

Dream Scion from Secrets of Sarlona, and the various Dreamtouched feats Dream of Contact, Dream of Insight, Dream of Strength, Dream of the Moment, Dream of Instinct, and Dream of Perception. None are all that cool.

The Dreamtelling feat from Heroes of Horror, which lets you read dreams and gain divination spell effects, determine your dream injuries, and help you navigate a dreamscape better.

Oneiromancy, which lets your magic work normally in a dreamscape and lets you use offensive spells to deal nonlethal damage by targeting a foe's dream self (even in the waking world.)

Improved Oneiromancy, adding a bunch of dream spells to your list.

The Dreamfane (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20070711a), a Psionic dream monster.

And of course anything to do with Kalashtar and Quori.

Sleep/Dream-based Spells:
Lullaby
Restful Slumber
Sleep
Dream Lock
Dream Spirit
Deep Slumber
Dream Walk
Dragon Breath (Brass Dragon)
Mass Dream Lock
Sleep Mote
Nightmare
Manifest Desire
Manifest Nightmare
Dream
Dream Casting
Endless Slumber
Dreaming Puppet
Hiss of Sleep
Dream Sight
Dream Travel
Dream Image

So how could you make a sleep-based character? They'd suffer a lot of the same stumbling blocks as Enchanters do, since most of these spells seem to be mind-affecting and so Mind Blank or Protection From X stops them from working. If some of these spells can be used while asleep, in a dreamscape, can a Wizard adventure like this while asleep and thus be resting and regaining spells in that time?

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, the one that always seems cool to me is a Planar Shepherd of Dal'Quor, I think it is. In addition to the normal benefits of Planar Shepherd, which is broken beyond words, you get to wildshape into anything that can be native to Dal'Quor, which is anything that can appear in a dream, which is anything.

Another cool thing to look at for TO is The Dream of Metal. Disclaimer: There are many and fairly well-founded suggestions that the Dream of Metal doesn't work as-billed. It is, however, a rather mind-bending endeavor, the kind which may inspire further ideas along these lines.

A big problem with the basic concept is like half of everything in 3e doesn't even sleep. Puts a cramp on the motif.

[Nettlekid]

Well, the one that always seems cool to me is a Planar Shepherd of Dal'Quor, I think it is. In addition to the normal benefits of Planar Shepherd, which is broken beyond words, you get to wildshape into anything that can be native to Dal'Quor, which is anything that can appear in a dream, which is anything.

Another cool thing to look at for TO is The Dream of Metal. Disclaimer: There are many and fairly well-founded suggestions that the Dream of Metal doesn't work as-billed. It is, however, a rather mind-bending endeavor, the kind which may inspire further ideas along these lines.

A big problem with the basic concept is like half of everything in 3e doesn't even sleep. Puts a cramp on the motif.

...Now that's a pretty fun idea. Turn into anything you can imagine. That's obviously broken, but if you were to play up the "imagine" part rather than the "anything" (don't turn into the outright broken things, but weird things) that could be pretty fun. That has a real Fairy Tail vibe to it, like Rufus' Memory Make.

Oh yeah, Forced Dream is one I forgot on that list. But The Dream of Metal isn't really about sleep or dreaming, right? It's the big "reset time" button thing?

And yeah, that's really annoying. Fortunately some things which are immune to magic sleep are still vulnerable to dream attacks when they're sleeping normally (like dragons). But yeah, between Constructs and Undead and whatever, that's an issue. If only there was a way to forcibly give your opponent a feat, since the Dream Scion feat makes any user vulnerable to dream effects.

[Phelix-Mu]

I can Lucid Dream in real life, and I even have a D&D character in my dreams that I level up every now and again. Now that it's around level 50-ish, however, there isn't much in my personal multiverse that is much of a challenge (at least, not yet); as usual, it's oneself that is one's greatest opponent, so I imagine that I could continue to level indefinitely.

If I were going to run a campaign in which dreaming played a big role, I'd base it around the Plane of Dreams stuff, Lucid Dreaming, and some of the more interesting of the Oneiromancy stuff. The main problem is that the current version of Lucid Dreaming is incredibly open-ended, with claims being made that you can do weird stuff like double your equipment by going to sleep and then casting plane shift back the Prime with all your dream items. That doesn't seem to be RAI, but the RAI seems a bit lame for everything that I can personally do with Lucid Dreaming.

So get a rewrite of Lucid Dreaming that was more comprehensive and less open to weird interpretation. Maybe there is even homebrew to that effect on this site; I haven't checked, actually.

Beside this, as the Dream of Metal illustrates, there is lots of this kind of mentalism/brainspace theme in psionics, and if you involve Psionic Meditation and the like, that may even give a dreamspace-like effect for non-sleeping creatures. I suggest a glance at the PF/3rd party materials added to psionics, like Hyperconscious and the like, and Psyren even has a Meditant Guide, from what I recall.

Beyond undead and constructs, I believe that elementals and plants don't sleep either. And maybe not oozes.

[Ruethgar]

With lucid dreaming, just alter the architecture of the dreamscape to include spell traps/rune circles/portals. Now you can send trans dimensional spells through gates from your dreamscape at a rate of 10 per real world round. Congratulations, you are now super powerful and all you need is one level of commoner and a couple cross class skill points.

I would have them still need to spend xp, have the spells, and feats which would limit it severely but they could still pull their bodies into their dream and never actually go outside to adventure starting at a fairly low level.

[Qwertystop]

I'm working on a homebrew project that works with Lucid Dreaming. It's not done (third iteration - first two, I posted before they were done and they ended up flipping without getting any farther; don't want to ruin into that again), but the fix for the skill itself is pretty simple:

Allow basically anything. However, dreams are not another plane, they're inside your head. If the setting already has a "Dream" plane, that's now a pane that's a lot like dreams, and maybe dreams have something to do with it, but if you fall asleep that's not an Astral Projection to another plane. If you get into someone else's dream by some means (magic!), it doesn't all carry over when they wake up. Kill them, they wake up sharply, but with no mechanical effect other than disturbing their sleep.

Then there's a class ability in my homebrew (theoretically, there could be a spell for the same effect) to let things carry over with reduced effect. Set up a horrible nightmare, they'll be shaken when they wake up, and maybe also if they encounter things like the nightmare. Dominate them, maybe they get a little penalty to Will for a day when they wake. I'm still working on the chart - my goal is to make it more advantageous (goal: harming an enemy) to set up a scenario than to just invade their dream, spam save-or-dies, and leave.

Hopefully, this results in a range of practical effects by resources expended. Take some ranks in Lucid Dreaming and nothing else? You can use the time to think about things, as training time, or just for RP.

Add a spell or something to get into other people's dreams? Planning with the party overnight, investigating by spying on the BBEG's mook's dreams (BBEG probably runs Mind Blank), maybe wake up the enemy spellcaster so they can't get eight hours if you can find them and don't think they can do more to you with the contact.

More magic, to let the effects last? It'll take some time, but while you're trying to find the enemy commanders by day, you can slowly break them down into a trembling wreck over the nights (or at least a horribly sleep-deprived one as they stay up to avoid you).

[Psyren]

If you like psionics, the entire Hyperconscious book is centered around this concept. There are even feats that let you manifest powers while asleep or knocked out.

[Nettlekid]

If you like psionics, the entire Hyperconscious book is centered around this concept. There are even feats that let you manifest powers while asleep or knocked out.

Yeah, I really like the whole "craft stuff in your dreams" and whatever else Hyperconscious offers. It's a shame it's technically 3rd party, since it's really well written and by the same guy who did the official Psionics books, so y'know, it's going to be compatible in power level and flavor.

[Thurbane]

Maybe not exactly what you are looking for, but Heroes of Horror has the Dreamtelling/Oneiromancy/Improved Oneiromancy feat chain, that adds a lot of dream related abilities, and adds some dream/sleep related spells to your spell list.

Oops, missed the spoiler in the OP :smallredface:

[Kevingway]

Slightly off-topic, but can characters with only spell-like abilities qualify for Oneiromancy and Improved Oneiromancy?

[Thurbane]

Slightly off-topic, but can characters with only spell-like abilities qualify for Oneiromancy and Improved Oneiromancy?

Unfortunately not. The reqs are very specific: "ability to cast spells of any sort".

You could sneak in using the FR feat that gives you a 0-level spell to cast (although some would argue that a single spell is not "spells" as such).

[Miss Disaster]

What a wonderful thread. I'm now in the process of building a Dream Wizard for an upcoming campaign. She's going to be an illusionist of Shar with some very interesting and unorthodox ways of casting spells spontaneously.

Another thematic spell to add, is Nightmare Terrain. Although it's best maximized by a caster who's got a high Hide Skill capability. Most illusion spells in general can be refluffed as nightmare/dream/sleep spells with minimal tweaking.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't have much to add to what's been said already, but I did want to shamelessly plug a PrC I made for a contest a while back, the Dreamer of Forbears Dreams (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13322556&postcount=9). It's a Wu Jen/Spirit Shaman theurge that uses Dream Scion to improve casting.

I should probably update it at some point. It's got a broken table and I think the power may need to be toned down, but it's playable as-is in a higher-power party.

[Fable Wright]

To deal with sleepless creatures, use (Metamagic'd) Dream Walk to drop them into your own/someone else's dreamscape. You can just leave them trapped, or go in after them and destroy them with lucid dreaming or whatever. Ocular spell is a flavorful means of delivering Dream Walks at range; your very gaze draws people into your dreamscape.

[Phelix-Mu]

To deal with sleepless creatures, use (Metamagic'd) Dream Walk to drop them into your own/someone else's dreamscape. You can just leave them trapped, or go in after them and destroy them with lucid dreaming or whatever. Ocular spell is a flavorful means of delivering Dream Walks at range; your very gaze draws people into your dreamscape.

ZOMG. Thanks. I have been aching to have a Darsha (Wolf's Rain) pc/npc for ages, and you may have just shown me how to make it feasible.

[Miss Disaster]

Nettled kid, are you interested in PF material? Or primarily 3.5?

There's some PF material that fits this theme quite well.

Plus, spells that put the target into a state of stasis could also be refluffed into "putting them to sleep" in some fashion. Here's a few like that as well ....