Full Monastic Party (could use some help)

[PsyBomb]

So, a friend of mine wanted to challenge me for something. He will be running a dungeon-crawl for me, controlling four characters. The challenge is that they all have to share a theme, and mine is Monastic.

So... Going super-Monk on these. He is allowing all Paizo and DSP material, including the Ajashic Mysteries playtest (since we both loved Incarnum). Will be starting at level 6, and no clue how high this will go. I need to be able to solve anything I come across. So far my party is:

1) Brawler4/Monk(MoMF)2. Front liner, idea is to spontaneously learn styles as needed against a given opponent.
2) Warpriest 6 of Irori.
3) Guru (Vayist) 6, will be my "rogue" character via Veils, going Dervish once I can for combat damage. Will have Dangerously Curious and maxed UMD.
4) Quinggong Monk 6, going for Ki- Caster theme.

Need any suggestions. Thinking about replacing the last one with a Zen Archer, but I'm worried about DR.

[deuxhero]

Wizard: He's a monk (The western book preserving/copying kind)
Cleric: He's a priest at a monastery

[Fax Celestis]

Someone had a drunken master/qiggong monk set up that got practically infinite ki by getting plastered. You could do that.

[Psyren]

Someone had a drunken master/qiggong monk set up that got practically infinite ki by getting plastered. You could do that.

That would be me, and he's perfect for monastic guy #4. Throw in Sensei and he can have the entire party firing lasers or shards of ice without spending any of their own ki.

Alternatively, if you do go with the Zen Archer, just use Clustered Shots and you can beat most DR. That or get a +5 bow as soon as possible.

[torrasque666]

Wizard: He's a monk (The western book preserving/copying kind)
Cleric: He's a priest at a monastery

That...... that kinda defeats the purpose of the team. He said he's going for a team of Monks, and your solution is to offer...... not Monks, but things merely reflavored as monks. Yeah, sure seems about right.

[PsyBomb]

That would be me, and he's perfect for monastic guy #4. Throw in Sensei and he can have the entire party firing lasers or shards of ice without spending any of their own ki.

Alternatively, if you do go with the Zen Archer, just use Clustered Shots and you can beat most DR. That or get a +5 bow as soon as possible.

Can you point me to that Drunken Sensei build? Sounds hilarious and fun, and half the point of these challenges is the story

[Psyren]

It wasn't really a "build" - more idle musing on my part. Thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367701-The-quot-Monklock-quot-(drunken-ki-spam))

Your biggest problems are going to be (a) getting to 18 Con and as much Wis as possible (though if you are the group's "caster" you other stats probably won't matter as much anyway), and (b) finding an easy way to lose the sickened condition because once you drink too much it will stay on you for hours.

[PsyBomb]

It wasn't really a "build" - more idle musing on my part. Thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367701-The-quot-Monklock-quot-(drunken-ki-spam))

Your biggest problems are going to be (a) getting to 18 Con and as much Wis as possible (though if you are the group's "caster" you other stats probably won't matter as much anyway), and (b) finding an easy way to lose the sickened condition because once you drink too much it will stay on you for hours.

Many thanks! DM looked at it and gave me a go, and rules that the "count of drinks" resets down after fully metabolized... that same one-hour stretch. He's also letting me go for a 5-man band, so both him and the Archer are a go. Time to stat them all out.

[Feint's End]

I would have recommended adding a contemplative wilder since they fit the idea very well too but sounds like you already got a fun group there.

Let us know how the one shot worked out.

[PsyBomb]

Ended up dropping the MoMF from the Brawler, will go into it starting at 7. Figured getting the Swift Versatility would be best. Pummeling style going in, MoMF1 will give Dragon, and I'll grab Elemental Fist at some point because I find it a hilarious way to clear mooks.

[caimbuel]

Sohie 1/emperial sorcer/eldritch knight could be your arcane
Maybe brawler mix monk for tank
a monastery faith cleric
Monk /investigator for skills

Not sure if this fits but something like that would be my group ymmv

Edit:dang tablet, did what I could with it and auto correct

[PsyBomb]

Initial trial was interesting. He has put off the main event dungeon crawl for a little bit, having figured out that the planned gateways hold no challenge to this group.

Brawler5/MoMF1 with Dragon/Pummeling styles makes a shockingly capable melee combatant. Importantly, the ability to randomly pick up appropriate combat maneuver feats for what we're facing is surprisingly good. Grabbing Style was one such.

Zen Archer ripped apart anything that came close to breaking past the Brawler. We all know how good they are, no use belaboring the point. DM was a bit surprised by Improved Precise Shot, he forgot I'd have access to it from a bonus feat.

The Drunken Dwarven Sensei randomly firing off Scorching Rays and maintaining Inspiration was better than I'd thought. Honestly never came close to burning through all my Ki, and between his high Con, the alcohol-resistance trait, Dwarf racials, and good natural Fort... well, +16 Fort doesn't fail often against DC15. Plus the RP is a hoot, thank you Psyren for the idea.

Running the Guru through his trap gauntlet was actively easier than when i tried to run a rogue through somethign similar. The guy was a freaking ghost when he didn't want to be found, and dealt surprisingly high amounts of damage to anything vulnerable to the Gentle Touch (read: anything without the Construct or Ooze subtypes)

And the Warpriest... not 100% on how to run them at the moment, but he was acting an awful lot like an unarmed Paladin with more magic and worse saves. Need to figure this out ASAP, the DM is convinced he needs to tune the challenges up by 1-2 CR minimum and he needs to be ready for support and striking.

Going to continue tuning the team up, main challenge looks to be in a week. I can give the play-by-play writeup later, a hair short on time right now.

[Psyren]

The Drunken Dwarven Sensei randomly firing off Scorching Rays and maintaining Inspiration was better than I'd thought. Honestly never came close to burning through all my Ki, and between his high Con, the alcohol-resistance trait, Dwarf racials, and good natural Fort... well, +16 Fort doesn't fail often against DC15. Plus the RP is a hoot, thank you Psyren for the idea.


No problem!

Is the Warpriest going basic with unarmed strike or did he go Sacred Fist archetype?

[PsyBomb]

The Warpriest is currently non-archetype, but I'll have to look harder at Sacred Fist and see how it compares.

[CaptainPlatypus]

Your party looks pretty solid! Keep in mind, your goal here is to create a monastic party that works not a monastic party that looks 'traditional'. You don't actually need to have a wizard-analogue, a cleric-analogue, a fighter-analogue, and a rogue-analogue. You just need to be able to meet the challenges you face. I bet (because I'm working on a monk guide and so this is an interesting challenge) you could do this with four single-classed monks. Which isn't to say you have to by any means - just that it could be interesting. I'm thinking a terra-cotta monk/maneuver master (Tom), a zen archer/qinggong monk (Richard), a drunken master/monk of the lotus/qinggong monk (Harry), and a tetori/qinggong monk (Rutherford). Tom handles traps and trips, Richard fills everything with arrows, Harry uses Touch of the Lotus when applicable, and Rutherford grapples (especially casters).

So what've you got as a party? You've got all good saves on everybody, ditto AC (wand of mage armor does some heavy listing here), you have trapfinding, you've got scads of battlefield control (nothing targeting reflex saves, so carry some alchemical coal and tanglefoot bags), and some impressive sustained damage output in melee and at range (everybody who isn't Richard carries shuriken). You can have all relevant skills if everybody does a bit (Tom does the rogue stuff, somebody does the face stuff and UMD, somebody gets a bunch of knowledges, somebody fills in gaps). They can even be class skills, with the right traits. You don't really have a way to go nova, heal, or dish out area of effect, but get UMD high enough (consistently hitting a 20 at level 6 should be pretty simple) and you can solve all of those with the right wands. All your damage counts as magic for bypassing DR (assuming Richard has a +1 bow), and you can carry special-material weapons for the more specific DRs. Your biggest weakness is extra-large monsters with good Will saves (good Fort is assumed on something that big), and those you can just unleash the flurry on and bring down with raw damage.

Honestly, the real loss here is not having all the utility caster stuff - rope trick, fly, that sort of thing. But until Paizo makes a monk archetype that's a full caster (dear god don't encourage them) there isn't really a way around that.

But yeah, your idea is the far more robust one. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Apparently the board auto-censors the more traditional version of "Tom, Richard, and Harry." Oops.

[Snowbluff]

Would you induct my Unarmed Fighter1/Master of Many Styles Monk1/Synthesist? It has a monk level... and wields x4 crit weapons with a hefty crit chance with Pummeling Style...

[CaptainPlatypus]

Would you induct my Unarmed Fighter1/Master of Many Styles Monk1/Synthesist? It has a monk level... and wields x4 crit weapons with a hefty crit chance with Pummeling Style...

My read of pummeling style only lets it apply to unarmed strikes. The table requires such, the equivalent style feats (jabbing style in the same book, for example) require such, and the flavor text supports such a reading. I'm going to assume that the only reason the feat text doesn't require such is yet another Advanced Class Guide typo. Also, the crit shenanigans just get too ridiculous with any other interpretation. Even allowing it to apply to attacks with a cestus make the feat about twice as good.

[Snowbluff]

It's also veritably wrong. The text states, in plain words, that you use all of your attacks. Intent is meaningless if it does nothing to actually contradict the operating portions of the text. Style feats that need unarmed attacks need to die, anyway. It's bad enough that to have style you have to be in a class with no class.

Crunch crunch crunch.

[torrasque666]

It's also veritably wrong. The text states, in plain words, that you use all of your attacks. Aye, and how many x4 attacks are a punch?

Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)
You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry† class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.
Its pretty clear that its only supposed to work with unarmed strikes, or similar attacks. Just because you don't like the class, or think that unarmed attacks styles need to die, doesn't mean that you're right. You're undoubtedly wrong in this case.

[Snowbluff]

Everything after that gives you the mechanics of the feat. You should examine it closely.

What you have there is how it manifests in the fluff. I swing once with kukri 1, kukri 2, scythe 1, scythe 2, tentacle 1, tentacle 2, tentacle 3, unarmed kick 1, and then as many hits my BAB grants with scythe 3. It looks like I punched the guy.

[PsyBomb]

Not quite the place for this debate. None of my runners are using super-crit weapons this go-around, anyway. I'll save the RAW for when I really need to transfer into the realms of Gouda.

[torrasque666]

Everything after that gives you the mechanics of the feat. You should examine it closely.

What you have there is how it manifests in the fluff. I swing once with kukri 1, kukri 2, scythe 1, scythe 2, tentacle 1, tentacle 2, tentacle 3, unarmed kick 1, and then as many hits my BAB grants with scythe 3. It looks like I punched the guy.

And I(and someone else has mentioned it as well) think that you're willfully misreading the feat.

[Kudaku]

Aye, and how many x4 attacks are a punch?

Katars (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/katar-tri-bladed) have a critical hit multiplier of x4. Katars are also frequently referred to as punching daggers... Other weapons that rely on punching include the actual punching dagger, spiked and normal gauntlets, brass knuckles, the cestus, and a myriad of other weapons. Going by the feat blurb the original intent was for the feat to be restricted to unarmed strikes, but as it is currently written that limitation is not in place. Truth be told, Pummeling Style is badly edited. Hopefully it will be clarified soon.

[Snowbluff]

Not quite the place for this debate. None of my runners are using super-crit weapons this go-around, anyway. I'll save the RAW for when I really need to transfer into the realms of Gouda.
Sure thing, man. Just make some crunchy noises for me when you do. :smallsmile:

And I(and someone else has mentioned it as well) think that you're willfully misreading the feat. There's nothing being misread here, and there is no crunch that can be misread. It is certifiably RAW. You're willfully misreading it or are blissfully unaware that a punch doesn't have to be made with a fist. :smallamused:


Katars (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/katar-tri-bladed) have a critical hit multiplier of x4. Katars are also frequently referred to as punching daggers... Truth be told, Pummeling Style is badly edited. Hopefully it will be clarified soon.

Neat. I hope they never fix it. It's an interesting feat to work with, and changing it to only work with *shudders*... monks would be screwing mundanes. I mean, I have one the strongest combinations with it here, but regular by fighters use shouldn't be hurt.

[Kudaku]

I don't mind other mundanes getting pounce, but I don't think Pummeling Style is the right way to go about it - in part because of the MoMS shortcut (:smallsigh:) but also because IUS is an annoying feat tax for paladins and non-beast totem barbarians. Pummeling Charge fixes one of the major monk paradoxes (lots of mobility abilities, can only use flurry on full attacks), so I'd rather they let Pummeling Style remain as is but be restricted to monk and brawler options and give the other martials another solution for combining full attacks and movement.

Anyway, I'll butt out and let you continue the monk party planning. :smallsmile:

P.S. I'd definitely consider Sacred Fist for the Warpriest. It's the first time I've seen an archetype "add monk" and make something better than what the original class was.

[Psyren]

There's nothing being misread here, and there is no crunch that can be misread. It is certifiably RAW. You're willfully misreading it or are blissfully unaware that a punch doesn't have to be made with a fist. :smallamused:


I won't argue it here, but I will point out one thing - this is a situation where intent is more than clear enough, that there will probably be a FAQ to nerf this to unarmed strike only at some point. (Note - I'm not saying it's currently overpowered, just that the intent/fluff is clear.) And then people will get upset as though they somehow didn't see it coming.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, it's probably going to get nerfed. When Paizo does something good, they want to have done it on purpose, for better or for worse. :smalltongue:

[torrasque666]

There's nothing being misread here, and there is no crunch that can be misread. It is certifiably RAW. You're willfully misreading it or are blissfully unaware that a punch doesn't have to be made with a fist. :smallamused:

Well, by definition, ​IT CAN'T!

[CaptainPlatypus]

It's also veritably wrong. The text states, in plain words, that you use all of your attacks. Intent is meaningless if it does nothing to actually contradict the operating portions of the text.

I agree with you that RAW says that's how the feat works. But as Psyren says, intent is perfectly clear, and the published version is disgustingly overpowered. Hell, even the version they no doubt meant to publish is pretty disgusting. So to me, anything that relies on non-unarmed attacks working with Pummeling Strike is pure theoretical optimization, on the grounds that it's unintended, soon-to-be-FAQ/Errata'd, and not going to be allowed by (m)any sane DMs.

Even with just a straight monk 12 with Improved Critical and flurried unarmed strikes, you're going to threaten crit (with highest bonus used to confirm, remember) on ~2/5 full attacks. If Medusa's Wrath gets triggered (won initiative, stunning fist, etc) you're up to more like a 50/50 shot at a crit (for a conservative minimum of something dumb like 12d6+60 damage, without any real optimization). Note that a brawler is better at this (though if he wants medusa's wrath he needs to blow some feats or dip MoMS) because he gets Pummeling Charge at level 13. This is the version I think is somewhat sane. If you let a hypothetical brawler with a Keen cestus use it for pummeling style, he threatens crit on 3/5 full attacks with no need for Medusa's Wrath (for a conservative, low-op minimum of 4d10+40 damage). That's a bit much even for me, but I'd probably let it slide in a high-op party. Full casters are still a thing.

But if you let a hypothetical ranger10/master-of-many-styles2 with greater two weapon fighting use a Keen falcata and a Keen kukri for Pummeling Style, at level 12 he's threatening crit on four out of five full attacks. And gets a x3 multiplier on at least part of it (maybe the whole thing, depending on your reading). And has pounce. His expected damage on those crits he's getting basically every time he attacks is harder to calculate an average for (because it matters what weapons he's critting with, and how you read pummeling style, and so on), but it should be at least as good as the above. And I haven't even mentioned the sohei option, where you use a keen nodachi to flurry at reach and crit on 3/4 attacks for conservative damage of 4d10+56. So yeah, this is outrageous and shouldn't be allowed.

...on the other hand, I think we just made two weapon fighting good, so maybe it's a wash.

Exercise for the reader: I was assuming power attacking for +2, a strength mod of +4, and a +2 weapon for the above "conservative damage" examples. How high can you get average damage with an actual dedicated build?