Down-grading available magic, making the mundane magical.

[Warlocknthewind]

An idea I am considering as a major adjustment to the world I would be DMing, I considered a massive downgrade in the magic available in the world, such as removing all tier 1-2 classes, or even all vancian casters entirely. A world with only Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, Dragon Shamans, Incarnates, Totemists, Factotums,True-Namers, Binders, Shadowcasters, Soul-Born, and Wildshape Rangers being the only available "magic" in the universe to PC's and most NPC's. I I want magic to keep it's wonder and potency, while allowing other mundane classes to contribute more (Bo9S helped a lot in this).

Certain magic needed for a goal would have to be quested for to get just what is needed available through monsters, summoned, or bargained with, such as Dragons (Who will be one of the few creatures with Sorceric capabilities). Each character capable of any magic will be at least a little famous/infamous, and probably sought out themselves if they have a specific ability needed by another.

What impact would it have culturally, if the only people about with magical healing were Dragon Shaman/Adepts, and the very rare Incarnate? Would a game still be playable without needed to stop too often to rest/recoop PC's HP? (I'm liable to say yes, I've read Cantrips & Crystals, that dragon Shaman healed more than any cleric I've played with). I have thought of using the Draconic Pantheon, including the Incarnum Races, and Races of the Dragon to reflect the culture and religion surrounding the available classes.

Is this limiting player selection too much, in your opinion? If they want to be a mysterious powerful arcanist I still want that to be available, along with a devout disciple to a Cause. I believe these 10 different classes should be able to reflect a lot of creativity back from most players who want to be magical.

I'm aiming for a tier 3 'round the table world, and that's a big target to hit. After this get figured through, I get to figure what skill-focused classes could counter-part the Factotum, so I have a little variety.

Praise be to the Foot!

[Fax Celestis]

No way. I would totally play at this table. I have a remarkably similar ban list that I can't link at the moment because I'm dealing with mobile. If some enterprising entrepreneur wants to go find it for me, a quick google search of "site:giantitp.com "Fax Celestis" "Ban list"" should bring it up rather succinctly.

[bjoern]

An idea I am considering as a major adjustment to the world I would be DMing, I considered a massive downgrade in the magic available in the world, such as removing all tier 1-2 classes, or even all vancian casters entirely. A world with only Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, Dragon Shamans, Incarnates, Totemists, Factotums,True-Namers, Binders, Shadowcasters, Soul-Born, and Wildshape Rangers being the only available "magic" in the universe to PC's and most NPC's. I I want magic to keep it's wonder and potency, while allowing other mundane classes to contribute more (Bo9S helped a lot in this).

Certain magic needed for a goal would have to be quested for to get just what is needed available through monsters, summoned, or bargained with, such as Dragons (Who will be one of the few creatures with Sorceric capabilities). Each character capable of any magic will be at least a little famous/infamous, and probably sought out themselves if they have a specific ability needed by another.

What impact would it have culturally, if the only people about with magical healing were Dragon Shaman/Adepts, and the very rare Incarnate? Would a game still be playable without needed to stop too often to rest/recoop PC's HP? (I'm liable to say yes, I've read Cantrips & Crystals, that dragon Shaman healed more than any cleric I've played with). I have thought of using the Draconic Pantheon, including the Incarnum Races, and Races of the Dragon to reflect the culture and religion surrounding the available classes.

Is this limiting player selection too much, in your opinion? If they want to be a mysterious powerful arcanist I still want that to be available, along with a devout disciple to a Cause. I believe these 10 different classes should be able to reflect a lot of creativity back from most players who want to be magical.

I'm aiming for a tier 3 'round the table world, and that's a big target to hit. After this get figured through, I get to figure what skill-focused classes could counter-part the Factotum, so I have a little variety.

Praise be to the Foot!

I think it could work and be fun. Keep in mind that most of the CRs given for enemies are assuming that the characters have magic items to help them pass the challenge. Without magic things will be more difficult. Which isn't a bad thing just different than normal . So now any enemy with some kind of special ability like incorpeality or even flight will be much tougher since the only way for a normal fighter to hit them is with magic of some kind or an item. Or the natural ability to fly, which isn't as common as magical flight would be normally.

[Zanos]

No Dread Necromancer or Beguiler or Warmage? They're not overpowered and should fit your Tier 3 goal nicely. Also, the True Namer and Soulborn will have problems contributing in a Tier 3 party.

Without access to higher level divine magic many monsters get more dangerous. A lot of monsters have racial casting that is very powerful, or inflict status effects that can only be removed with certain spells. You may want to keep Adept around as an NPC class so the party has access to certain curative magic.

[Warlocknthewind]

No Dread Necromancer or Beguiler or Warmage? They're not overpowered and should fit your Tier 3 goal nicely. Also, the True Namer and Soulborn will have problems contributing in a Tier 3 party.

Without access to higher level divine magic many monsters get more dangerous. A lot of monsters have racial casting that is very powerful, or inflict status effects that can only be removed with certain spells. You may want to keep Adept around as an NPC class so the party has access to certain curative magic.

This is something I considered. Souldborn & such are lame, but flavorful. My worry with the tier 3 specialist casters is there ability to compete with the longevity that the other classes are capable of. Are they going to be be able to do what they do enough? Would Shugenja be a better fit than Beguiler & Warmage, and Healer if I were to include vancian casters still? And in that case, why not bards and their varients as well. I make character run long days, usually. There's a lot that can happen before you get a chance to rest again. I don't want a player to be upset by their lack of resources half way through a dangerous dungeon.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, you could retain specific casters and give the the duskblade, adept, or bard casting progression to cut down on magic's intensity. Going with ranger casting as the default might be a bit much.

[AMFV]

I'd recently been considering doing much the same for a game. My solution was to have certain magical items be available as "relics" of an era when Vancian casting was possible. As far as the Soulborn goes, they're tier 5, and are within 2 tiers as such they should be alright if properly built.

[Haluesen]

An idea I am considering as a major adjustment to the world I would be DMing, I considered a massive downgrade in the magic available in the world, such as removing all tier 1-2 classes, or even all vancian casters entirely. A world with only Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, Dragon Shamans, Incarnates, Totemists, Factotums,True-Namers, Binders, Shadowcasters, Soul-Born, and Wildshape Rangers being the only available "magic" in the universe to PC's and most NPC's. I I want magic to keep it's wonder and potency, while allowing other mundane classes to contribute more (Bo9S helped a lot in this).

Certain magic needed for a goal would have to be quested for to get just what is needed available through monsters, summoned, or bargained with, such as Dragons (Who will be one of the few creatures with Sorceric capabilities). Each character capable of any magic will be at least a little famous/infamous, and probably sought out themselves if they have a specific ability needed by another.

What impact would it have culturally, if the only people about with magical healing were Dragon Shaman/Adepts, and the very rare Incarnate? Would a game still be playable without needed to stop too often to rest/recoop PC's HP? (I'm liable to say yes, I've read Cantrips & Crystals, that dragon Shaman healed more than any cleric I've played with). I have thought of using the Draconic Pantheon, including the Incarnum Races, and Races of the Dragon to reflect the culture and religion surrounding the available classes.

Is this limiting player selection too much, in your opinion? If they want to be a mysterious powerful arcanist I still want that to be available, along with a devout disciple to a Cause. I believe these 10 different classes should be able to reflect a lot of creativity back from most players who want to be magical.

I'm aiming for a tier 3 'round the table world, and that's a big target to hit. After this get figured through, I get to figure what skill-focused classes could counter-part the Factotum, so I have a little variety.

Praise be to the Foot!

I think it is a pretty fun game idea overall. I've never really had the same issues with tier 1 and 2 casters like a lot of people on this board seem to have had, but I can understand why people want to restrict them. I think it could work. The healing is something I think would need something more though. Part of that is covered by players just needing to play smarter and more cautiously, and by characters focusing at least a little bit on defense. I run games with long days too, and I just houseruled it so that resting overnight healed full hp unless in a more tense or stressful situation. That prevents the need to have too much in game downtime. For you I might suggest possibly houseruling/revising the Heal skill to be able to heal to some degree. There was a thing I saw for it on d&dwiki but it basically had Heal have a point-based system that allowed it to replicate the effects of healing spells, and I'm not sure if that is what you want to go with. But something with the Heal skill to help keep characters in the fight longer might make the skill more worthwhile, especially without the standard magic.

Other than that you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Religion would be more centered on Adepts as priests, or more dragon worship or whatever theology comes from incarnum. Heck, shadowcasters might even count as priests for those who follow The Plane of Shadow as its own religion. And I think you got enough diversity in there to give everyone options.

Aside from that, I also want to thumb this up because heck yeah warlocks and totemists. :smallbiggrin:

Oh and for when you do focus on the skill based classes, the ones I think fit it best aside from factotum are rogue (naturally), expert, totemist, scout, and maybe ninja.


No way. I would totally play at this table. I have a remarkably similar ban list that I can't link at the moment because I'm dealing with mobile. If some enterprising entrepreneur wants to go find it for me, a quick google search of "site:giantitp.com "Fax Celestis" "Ban list"" should bring it up rather succinctly.

I found it and I'm gonna spoiler tag it for anyone who wants to look.

The First Rule: You breaka mah gaem, I breaka yo faec. Be reasonable.
Broad-Spectrum Bans: Anything with 9th level casting is out. Anything that goes over 6 levels of casting is probably out. We are not using Multiclass Experience Penalties or Favored Classes. Planetouched races (incl. genasi) are not races: they are templates with the standard level adjustment they would have carried before.
Core: Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard are banned. Leadership is banned. Paladins use the d20r variant. Spells and items that deal with alignment (helm of opposite alignment, detect evil, magic circle against law, etc.) don't exist. If you want to play an Expert, Adept, or Aristocrat, let me know and we can work out some actual features to make the classes more interesting. Adepts in particular should talk to me. If you somehow pick up wildshape, use the PHB-II Shapeshift variant instead.
Player's Handbook 2: If you want to play a Dragon Shaman, let's talk about how to make it a little better. Beguilers use the Bard's spell progression. Arcane Thesis applies once per spell, not once per metamagic per spell.
Expanded Psionics Handbook: Psion and Wilder are banned. Soulknife uses the Pathfinder version. Marksman, Dread, Cryptic, Aegis, and Tactician from Psionics Unleashed (PF) are available. Elan is an LA +1 template, not a race, and gives an additional +2 Int. Dromites and Blues use the Pathfinder variant.
Eberron Campaign Setting: Artificer is provisionally banned--you can make one, but it will probably not be approved. Subraces (wild elves, earth dwarves, azurin, etc.) are allowed to take dragonmarks related to their parent race.

BoED: Material from this book is probably inappropriate for this campaign, but if you're dead set on using something, we'll talk.
BoVD: Material from this book is probably inappropriate for this campaign, but if you're dead set on using something, we'll talk.
Cityscape: Invisible Spell is a +1 adjustment.
Complete Arcane: Warmage is exempted from the above ninths-ban. Wu Jen is banned. Extra Spell functions exactly like Expanded Knowledge.
Complete Divine: The base classes presented in this book are banned, except Favored Soul, which uses either Wisdom or Charisma (your choice) for spellcasting (instead of Wisdom/Charisma) and uses the Bard's spell progression and spells known mechanics.
Complete Psionic: The Ardent and Erudite are banned. The Divine Mind is okay, but is probably inappropriate for this campaign. If you want to play a Lurk, I would recommend looking up the Psychic Rogue instead.
Complete Warrior: The Samurai is terrible but is probably repairable. Talk to me if you want to use this.
Draconomicon: Dragonwrought Kobolds don't qualify for epic feats.
Dungeonscape: The Factotum's abilities are limited to once per round (so no Cunning Strike or Cunning Surge ridiculosity).
Heroes of Horror: The Dread Necromancer and Archivist are banned.
Magic of Incarnum: The Soulborn is terrible but is probably repairable. Talk to me if you want to use this.
Tome of Battle: Material from this book is probably inappropriate for this campaign, but if you're dead set on using something, we'll talk.
Tome of Magic: Shadowcasters are explicitly exempt from the no-ninths abilities above but are as-written. Alternatively, we can work out a six-level mystery progression and switch the uses/mystery/day table to a uses/mystery/encounter table.
Weapons of Legacy: Utilizing a Weapon of Legacy does not inflict penalties upon its wielder, but is limited to one per player. Custom Legacy Weapons are acceptable but must be cleared with me. The Legacy Champion cannot advance class features beyond their original class maximums (sorry, Hellfire Warlocks).
Pathfinder Material: Provisionally okay as long as it doesn't violate the above rules. I would prefer no Summoners, but we can talk.

Now I just want to give my opinions. First of all I love that first rule. :smallamused: Overall I do agree with a lot of the points on your list. I do like using the BoVD and BoED but since you are not dealing with alignment I can see why banning those makes sense. I am a little sad for banning the classes from Heroes of Horror though, since I do love the flavor and their class abilities. If I were to play in a game you ran, could I go with a Dread Necro with fairly weakened casting? Like I said it is their class abilities I enjoy rather than their spells. But not being able to play one wouldn't be a deal breaker to me, just a little upsetting. I especially like the possibility of a shadowcaster with mystery usages per encounter. And the fact that you addressed Weapons of Legacy as a possibility makes me want to cheer. I'll admit some of the ruling stuff I don't fully get because I haven't played Pathfinder, but otherwise pretty nice rulings.

Also I have seen you on the board fairly recently in topics and haven't yet said hello to you. So hi! :smallsmile:

[Fax Celestis]

Dread Necromancer was actually a ban I made that was specific to the theme of the game I originally put this together for. I would probably allow it with bard casting.

[Warlocknthewind]

I like that list.

Dread Necro with Bard progression looks like it would still be good for endurance runs, actually, if have you Tomb Tainted Soul as an Illumian with the appropriate feats & sigils. I'd allow it for sure. I'd even let you push the alignment, depending on your race choice. Half-Orcs, for example, lack a charisma deduction, and ignore alignment negative alignment descriptions (can take evil requirements and be good) due to being the literal Fell Blood of Orcus falling into our world (at least how I like to fluff it). So that opens up sanctified spells, also, if so pleased. Could even play an "evil" Incarnate.

I think the Warlock is better niches than the Warmage, and a regular Bard has better potential than a Beguiler with reduced casting progression IMHO.

Edit: Also, I love Scouts, they're just hard to do single classed. Ninja would work, but with Swordage available I don't see much purpose in it. I wish Spell-Thief would work, it's a class close to my heart, but my intent is lowering the amount of available magic in the first place.

[Haluesen]

Dread Necromancer was actually a ban I made that was specific to the theme of the game I originally put this together for. I would probably allow it with bard casting.

Ah I see then. I think that would be pretty cool. :smallsmile: If you're ever planning any games in the Playground I shall look into it, because it sounds like fun.




I like that list.

Dread Necro with Bard progression looks like it would still be good for endurance runs, actually, if have you Tomb Tainted Soul as an Illumian with the appropriate feats & sigils. I'd allow it for sure. I'd even let you push the alignment, depending on your race choice. Half-Orcs, for example, lack a charisma deduction, and ignore alignment negative alignment descriptions (can take evil requirements and be good) due to being the literal Fell Blood of Orcus falling into our world (at least how I like to fluff it). So that opens up sanctified spells, also, if so pleased. Could even play an "evil" Incarnate.

I think the Warlock is better niches than the Warmage, and a regular Bard has better potential than a Beguiler with reduced casting progression IMHO.

Yeah Bards generally have their class features better sorted than Beguilers. That's the conclusion I've come to at least. Warmage...I don't really know what to think of that class honestly. But Warlocks do tend to be able to do more. The half-orc example is a little strange to be since I don't really see being a evil/not-evil Incarnate, but at least the fluff behind the idea is creative. :smallsmile:

[Phelix-Mu]

This concept is at least as valid as a really high-magic setting, and probably a bit easier to execute for DMs with a lesser amount of system mastery.

Certainly, there is much that needs to be excised even from the existing level of magic for it to work as intended; the level of magic the game produces often exceeds that of their assumed setting, which can stress suspension of disbelief. By cutting out the higher-performing magic and higher tiers, you can cut down on a good amount of that problematic stuff.

@Fax: The more I hear about your games, the more interested I am in knowing more. Have you run/are you running any pbp on this (or other) forums? I would like to see your theory in motion, so to speak, though I'm not sure I have time to participate.

[Fax Celestis]

I've tried a few times to run a pbp, but they tend to die out like pbps do due to nonactivity and or real life.

I might consider one with enough interest.

[Zanos]

DN/Beguiler/Warmage are Tier 3(4 for warmage) with their current casting progression. If you'd like to present them as options for people who'd like to play casters, I doubt they'll do well with bard casting. Spells are really their primary method of accomplishing things, and bard spells per day are atrocious.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've tried a few times to run a pbp, but they tend to die out like pbps do due to nonactivity and or real life.

I might consider one with enough interest.

I just lack the discipline to run a proper pbp, it seems. I get a good premise, interesting players, and a good head of steam. Skip ahead several months and my/the players' post rates drop, I get depressed, loss of interest, and, as you say, real life intervenes on top.

I like the medium, though. It's just really hard to get all the moving parts together (and also optimal group size for pbp seems to be around three people, DM included, making it hard to run a game with a more traditional 4-person party).

[Haluesen]

I've tried a few times to run a pbp, but they tend to die out like pbps do due to nonactivity and or real life.

I might consider one with enough interest.


I just lack the discipline to run a proper pbp, it seems. I get a good premise, interesting players, and a good head of steam. Skip ahead several months and my/the players' post rates drop, I get depressed, loss of interest, and, as you say, real life intervenes on top.

I like the medium, though. It's just really hard to get all the moving parts together (and also optimal group size for pbp seems to be around three people, DM included, making it hard to run a game with a more traditional 4-person party).

Yeah this. It sucks that such a good way to be able to play a game without worrying about time constraints gets bogged down so easily. Already been in 3 games on this board that fell short. Though I am in 1 that is doing fairly well. A big reason for that is the group communicating over Skype to work out things OOC and inform people of when there is life to handle. The game had done 2 full threads before I joined, and now about to be in its 4th. :smallsmile: So that is that rare time that it does work out well.

[torrasque666]

I've tried a few times to run a pbp, but they tend to die out like pbps do due to nonactivity and or real life.

I might consider one with enough interest.

would you consider running one on roll20?

[Fax Celestis]

I can't at the moment: the only internet I have at home is on my cellphone.

[ahenobarbi]

Am I the only one bothered by OP delivering only first half of what was suggested in the title?

Anyways as alredy noted some monsters will be much more troublesome because you remove ways of recovering from effects they inflict. Most monsters become harder to deal with because of lack of magic items.

Possibly Warlocks become the most powerful class because they can craft scrolls of spells otherwise available only to most powerful dragons.

[Psyren]

Fax - you might want to consider Rainbow Warsnake for your ban list, I'm not seeing anything that prevents it. (Warmage is exempted from the 9ths prohibition and no PrCs from CDiv are banned.)

[Fax Celestis]

It didn't come up, but if someone asked I would've gone with the casting progression on the table for rainbow servant, which would mean a warmage would end up with 14 levels of casting, which would give them at maximum seventh level cleric spells at 20th level.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't it be 8th level? RS loses 4 levels of casting, i.e. 20-4 = 16, and Warmage can get in without dipping anything.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, yeah. For some reason I thought it lost 6.

Yeah, I'd probably add it to the list.

[Psyren]

Not to mention that even limited to 7th-level spells, spontaneously casting from the entire cleric list will blow just about any MT out of the water completely. There's a lot of problems you can solve with Holy Word spam :smallbiggrin:

Then you throw in Versatile Spellcaster and...

[Warlocknthewind]

Without tier 1's & 2's spells readily available to make skill checks pointless, they become much more crucial to the campaign: Making the mundane magical, in a sense, when you can jump small canyons, see a mile ahead, hear the ants scurry in the dirt, stabalize with your mind, and heal wounds with your knowledge of biology.

Yes, the Warlock does eventually break through to tier 2 field at level twelve, but it still has it's limitations (you have to scribe the scroll itself, taking days depending on it's potency)

And the initiator classes are practically mundane magic as is.

[Haluesen]

Am I the only one bothered by OP delivering only first half of what was suggested in the title?

Anyways as alredy noted some monsters will be much more troublesome because you remove ways of recovering from effects they inflict. Most monsters become harder to deal with because of lack of magic items.

Possibly Warlocks become the most powerful class because they can craft scrolls of spells otherwise available only to most powerful dragons.

Some of their effects can be cancelled by Heal, thus making the skill more worthwhile. It's why I advocate a revision or extension of the skill to make it matter more in low magic and no magic campaigns.

And to craft those scrolls, wouldn't the warlock need at least some way at all to get access to those spells, like another scroll to copy from? Then again those dragons might be helpful in this case...


Rainbow Warsnake

Could someone please draw a literal version of this? :smallbiggrin: That sounds incredible and I would love one for a mount.


Without tier 1's & 2's spells readily available to make skill checks pointless, they become much more crucial to the campaign: Making the mundane magical, in a sense, when you can jump small canyons, see a mile ahead, hear the ants scurry in the dirt, stabalize with your mind, and heal wounds with your knowledge of biology.

Yes, the Warlock does eventually break through to tier 2 field at level twelve, but it still has it's limitations (you have to scribe the scroll itself, taking days depending on it's potency)

And the initiator classes are practically mundane magic as is.

Yeah it is something people tend to forget a lot when magic comes into play. A lot of things that mid-high level adventurers do casually are superhuman.

[torrasque666]

And to craft those scrolls, wouldn't the warlock need at least some way at all to get access to those spells, like another scroll to copy from? Then again those dragons might be helpful in this case...

See Warlock, Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spels required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.

[Haluesen]

See Warlock, Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spels required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.

Ah right, I did remember the ability but not how it worked, so thank you. :smallsmile: I think though for the purposes of a game using these rules that Imbue Item will need to be nerfed, or it defeats the purpose. Of course that's up to the DM, just that's what I think should be done here.

[ahenobarbi]

See Warlock, Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spels required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.


Ah right, I did remember the ability but not how it worked, so thank you. :smallsmile: I think though for the purposes of a game using these rules that Imbue Item will need to be nerfed, or it defeats the purpose. Of course that's up to the DM, just that's what I think should be done here.

Yeah. Basically all spells still exist in the setting (because dragons can cast them) so Warlocks can craft items that grant access to those spells. It's still much less powerful than T1s because it has XP cost (and at optimization level where you get rid of XP costs differences between tiers are insignificant because everyone approaches unlimited power really fast) but it's much more powerful that anything else in the setting close in terms of CR.

[Warlocknthewind]

They must know of the spell itself to create it as well. Warlocks aren't putting imagination onto a page. It has to exist in the setting (as said, dragons, so most spec/wiz spells), and the Warlock must have either seen the spell in action before, or make a massive knowledge (Arcana) check to have knowledge of the archaic dweomer they want to conjure up. Then spend the next three or so days in solitude to craft it, and then roll a skill check to activate it (or take 10, although that may not be enough, depending).

There's a good number of placed here for failure, or DM Fiat of ther activies, and this big world-changing spells still need be a threat outside of lazy dragons, but definitely preventable.

Edit: at least that's how it is in my setting.

[S@tanicoaldo]

I was thinking of something similar but instead of removing wizards and other magic classes all together I plan to make magic a very costly thing so the users will not be able to do it so often by adding corrupting and mutation effects for the abuse of magic.

Dunno if it is what you want but that makes magic harder to get and do but still able to be useful.

Since it is almost impossible to fight things such as ghosts without magic.

[The Insanity]

My worry with the tier 3 specialist casters is there ability to compete with the longevity that the other classes are capable of. (...) I make character run long days, usually. There's a lot that can happen before you get a chance to rest again. I don't want a player to be upset by their lack of resources half way through a dangerous dungeon.
Considering that non-casters will run out of hps even before casters will run out of spells, especially in a game where healing is hard to come by, I wouldn't worry about it.

Monsters should be rarer and more unique, threated more like bosses than just normal enemies. Yes, even the mook, low CR monsters like Shadows. And I don't even say that for the metagame reason (they're harder or impossible to defeat without magic). I mean the verisimilitude reason. It would wreck my verisimilitude if the DM would say that magic is rare, and then it would turn out that the world is teeming with magical creatures. It's quite obvious and as-a-matter-of-fact-ish to me that "rare magic" means "rare magical monsters", simply because they're also part of the "magic" bit.

[AMFV]

Considering that non-casters will run out of hps even before casters will run out of spells, especially in a game where healing is hard to come by, I wouldn't worry about it.

Monsters should be rarer and more unique, threated more like bosses than just normal enemies. Yes, even the mook, low CR monsters like Shadows. And I don't even say that for the metagame reason (they're harder or impossible to defeat without magic). I mean the verisimilitude reason. It would wreck my verisimilitude if the DM would say that magic is rare, and then it would turn out that the world is teeming with magical creatures. It's quite obvious and as-a-matter-of-fact-ish to me that "rare magic" means "rare magical monsters", simply because they're also part of the "magic" bit.

Well that would probably depend for me at least, on why magic was rare. I once had an idea from a world where channeling magical energy was impossible, but that actually increased the number of magical creatures. Because the world itself was forced to turn a lot of it's magical energy against itself. Which of course would produce this sort of effect.

[Fax Celestis]

Post-apocalyptic might work too, like in Michael Stackpole's A Secret Atlas. There used to be high magic, but people screwed it up, there was a war centuries ago, and society retreated to small communities to survive the magical fallout. So now magic is lost to society, but last society's magic is still mutating the wilderness.

God I love that series. Age of exploration fantasy is the best.

[Warlocknthewind]

Considering that non-casters will run out of hps even before casters will run out of spells, especially in a game where healing is hard to come by, I wouldn't worry about it.

Monsters should be rarer and more unique, threated more like bosses than just normal enemies. Yes, even the mook, low CR monsters like Shadows. And I don't even say that for the metagame reason (they're harder or impossible to defeat without magic). I mean the verisimilitude reason. It would wreck my verisimilitude if the DM would say that magic is rare, and then it would turn out that the world is teeming with magical creatures. It's quite obvious and as-a-matter-of-fact-ish to me that "rare magic" means "rare magical monsters", simply because they're also part of the "magic" bit.

I wasn't going to make magic less a part of the world, infact, quite the opposite. In a world where meldshaping is common, and able to be manifested by anybody with a 13+ Con score, magic has become something familiar, almost. Farmers with Girallon Arms shaped will be ableto how, dig, carry, toss, and wrangle much more efficiently. A naval captain shapes Sailor's Gloves every morning to out-sail the pirate ship they hunt. City guards have Spot buffing shapes melded. You get the idea, magic is a facet of the societies in the campaign. Each will have their own primary subsystem (meldshaping, psionic, vancian, shadowcasting, and invocationists) depending on the race, culture, and environment, but it will permiate to nearly every member.

I am down-grading what's available to all, cutting the ceiling very low on what magic users are capable of in the long run, no Wishes that make nations poof out of the timeline, no Gating dozens if outsiders to paralyze worlds, or somesuch tricks. There's still some to be pulled, but they're more manageable, but it's more about making it more fun for the non-casters, or partial casters. Need your abilities restored? Go make friends with a level 4+ Paladin, or bind Naberious, or dip Incarnate for Strongheart Vest. The need to delve into the world and find what's needed to execute a certain function makes it feel much more real, you don't just have a magical toolbox that will solve the problem the next time it can rest. It warrants a creativity I encourage from players. How many uses have you found for Baleful Utterance?

Also, I have seen the simple Vigor Aura from a DS or DFA carry a party a very long time without resource expenditure, so I am still unsure about vancian longevity. A Warlock, in a day, will deal much, much more damage than a Warmage, just because it can do it all day long. Dragon Shamans have the only good in-combat healing (one that takes no actions). DFA with Charm becomes entire villages best friend in one day ect ect