Level Adjustment and Rudisplork

[Threadnaught]

That should prevent those who'd tell me I'm having fun wrong from coming here. :smallamused:


I'm planning out the encounters for the next Campaign I plane to run, where all Elder Evils will be active at once and I intend to be as brutal as possible toward my players' characters, so I'm making them Gestalt just so they can keep up with everything that will be happening.

I've finally convinced one player to begin making his character, but it wasn't until we started looking at the Crusader as a possible component, that I wondered what a fair amount of LA is.


What is a fair amount of Level Adjustment to give PCs for free, without unbalancing the game too much?


And on the subject of the Crusader, can the same Maneuver be Readied multiple times at once, or can they only take the one slot? It's mostly a question because of Arcane Swordsage.

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.troll.me/images2/syndrome/everyone-can-be-super-and-when-everyones-super-no-one-will-be.jpg

That is, if everyone has the same LA, it sort of comes out as a wash. I might consider giving one extra LA to people without casting features, but that's it.

[Flickerdart]

Arcane Swordsage.
Do not go down this road. It is dark, and full of terrors.

[Fax Celestis]

As far as your second question, no, you can't ready the same maneuver more than once.

[Threadnaught]

Do not go down this road. It is dark, and full of terrors.

Be chill, I taunted the player in question by asking if I could play as one in their Campaign, while knowing the answer would be no.

It did make me wonder if Maneuvers could be prepared multiple times though.


As far as your second question, no, you can't ready the same maneuver more than once.

Thank you very much.

That was quick and simple.

[Haluesen]

That should prevent those who'd tell me I'm having fun wrong from coming here. :smallamused:


I'm planning out the encounters for the next Campaign I plane to run, where all Elder Evils will be active at once and I intend to be as brutal as possible toward my players' characters, so I'm making them Gestalt just so they can keep up with everything that will be happening.

I've finally convinced one player to begin making his character, but it wasn't until we started looking at the Crusader as a possible component, that I wondered what a fair amount of LA is.


What is a fair amount of Level Adjustment to give PCs for free, without unbalancing the game too much?


And on the subject of the Crusader, can the same Maneuver be Readied multiple times at once, or can they only take the one slot? It's mostly a question because of Arcane Swordsage.

All of the Elder Evils? O.o Well that should dissuade divine spellcasters at least...this sounds like a very dangerous game. Might want to consider letting your characters be tristalt instead of just gestalt. Or if that is too much, give them each a Weapon of Legacy without penalties or something. At least by the standards of how I play and run games, this sounds exceedingly dangerous. That said it does still sound really fun, so rudisplork away. :smallamused: Can I say that word? I am not a member of the guild!

As for the actual question at hand I mostly agree with Fax but at least I want to know what level will the characters be? Assuming LA buyoff is something possible in your campaign world, then characters starting at a sufficient level can be assumed to have payed their buyoff pre-campaign as a justification for having LA "free".


Do not go down this road. It is dark, and full of terrors.

I cannot remember for the life of me, what is an Arcane Swordsage?

[malonkey1]

All of the Elder Evils? O.o Well that should dissuade divine spellcasters at least...this sounds like a very dangerous game.

That's why Sorcerers have a special clause in case they need a healing spell.


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study..


I cannot remember for the life of me, what is an Arcane Swordsage?

A Hilariously broken variant Swordsage that allows the taking of some Wizard spells as maneuvers.

[Haluesen]

That's why Sorcerers have a special clause in case they need a healing spell.

Heh that is something I missed. Then again there is plenty of other healing besides divine spellcasters, I was just pointing out how many if not all of the Elder Evils' signs include things again the gods and divine magic. There are still bards, dread necromancers and tomb-tainted soul, that sorcerer bit you mentioned, incarnates, and I'm pretty sure other options.



A Hilariously broken variant Swordsage that allows the taking of some Wizard spells as maneuvers.

Geez that does sound broken. :smallannoyed:

[WhamBamSam]

Heh that is something I missed. Then again there is plenty of other healing besides divine spellcasters, I was just pointing out how many if not all of the Elder Evils' signs include things again the gods and divine magic. There are still bards, dread necromancers and tomb-tainted soul, that sorcerer bit you mentioned, incarnates, and I'm pretty sure other options.Binder's can do infinite out of combat healing by binding Andras and using a Shield of Mercy. There are ways to get healing spells on spell lists where they aren't natively present without using any vague exceptions/DM fiat territory for spell research. Mechanatrixes and Lesser Mechanatrixes are healed by electricity damage. Anyone with fast healing or the undead type and one level of Shadow Sun Ninja can punch themselves in the face at no real cost, then heal their friends. Etc. Etc. Etc.


Geez that does sound broken. :smallannoyed:It's not just that it's broken. It's that it's so vaguely written that you basically have to homebrew the class yourself. Unarmed Swordsage is pretty straightforward in what you lose and what you get, but Arcane Swordsage really should have explained in more detail how the trading of spells and maneuvers is supposed to function or just not been printed at all.

As for the level adjustment question, my gut response for a high powered game would be up to LA+4. That covers most of the cool things that are usually a bit too pricey for player use.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'd make it variable +2 to +5, even. There are some low LA templates, like Mineral Warrior, Unseelie Fey and Vecna-Blooded that are just silly good. So if someone wants to do a Llolth-Touched Mineral Warrior X, that's +2 LA, and yet probably significantly stronger than a Winged Insectile X, which is +5.

[Chronos]

Even simpler, binders can do infinite out-of-combat healing just by binding Buer. That's exactly what that vestige is for, and it accomplishes it without needing to jump through any hoops or interpret any rules.

Alternately, if you want to get some other abilities from your vestige, you can bind Tenebrous and take the feat Sacred Healing, from Complete Divine (note: Not the feat by the same name from PHB2). It lets you spend a Turn Undead use to give everyone Fast Healing for a few rounds, and Tenebrous gives you Turn Undead once ever 5 rounds.

Or, for that matter, you can take Zceryll, and summon bralanis, to use their healing. That one might fall afoul of the Elder Evil signs, though.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, I wouldn't set an LA target. Case in point: +4 LA lets someone score Phrenic, Half-Fey, and basically become a spellcaster while still having another point of LA for whatever they want...or they could be a Shadow Drow, and not be terribly impressive.

Instead, you should set an LA cap and then allow one template to be selected. That makes the exact LA value less important and places more emphasis on how good the actual template is, without needing to change around any LA numbers.

[Zombulian]

Even simpler, binders can do infinite out-of-combat healing just by binding Buer. That's exactly what that vestige is for, and it accomplishes it without needing to jump through any hoops or interpret any rules.

Alternately, if you want to get some other abilities from your vestige, you can bind Tenebrous and take the feat Sacred Healing, from Complete Divine (note: Not the feat by the same name from PHB2). It lets you spend a Turn Undead use to give everyone Fast Healing for a few rounds, and Tenebrous gives you Turn Undead once ever 5 rounds.

Or, for that matter, you can take Zceryll, and summon bralanis, to use their healing. That one might fall afoul of the Elder Evil signs, though.

Can Binders be Exalted? Cuz then I think you could bind Nebarius and use Stigmata.


Honestly, I wouldn't set an LA target. Case in point: +4 LA lets someone score Phrenic, Half-Fey, and basically become a spellcaster while still having another point of LA for whatever they want...or they could be a Shadow Drow, and not be terribly impressive.

Instead, you should set an LA cap and then allow one template to be selected. That makes the exact LA value less important and places more emphasis on how good the actual template is, without needing to change around any LA numbers.

That's a good idea.

[Haluesen]

Binder's can do infinite out of combat healing by binding Andras and using a Shield of Mercy. There are ways to get healing spells on spell lists where they aren't natively present without using any vague exceptions/DM fiat territory for spell research. Mechanatrixes and Lesser Mechanatrixes are healed by electricity damage. Anyone with fast healing or the undead type and one level of Shadow Sun Ninja can punch themselves in the face at no real cost, then heal their friends. Etc. Etc. Etc.

It's not just that it's broken. It's that it's so vaguely written that you basically have to homebrew the class yourself. Unarmed Swordsage is pretty straightforward in what you lose and what you get, but Arcane Swordsage really should have explained in more detail how the trading of spells and maneuvers is supposed to function or just not been printed at all.

As for the level adjustment question, my gut response for a high powered game would be up to LA+4. That covers most of the cool things that are usually a bit too pricey for player use.

I'll be honest, the binding rules still confuse me. I know what vestiges are but I've never looked deeper than that...hence why such ideas fly right over my head. :smallredface: But I can basically get why Mechanatrixes would work like that, but what source might I find those from?

Still as it is sounds like it is very open for abuse. Since there isn't a detailed explanation, a lot of tomfoolery is possible with an attentive DM that knows the system well.



Honestly, I wouldn't set an LA target. Case in point: +4 LA lets someone score Phrenic, Half-Fey, and basically become a spellcaster while still having another point of LA for whatever they want...or they could be a Shadow Drow, and not be terribly impressive.

Instead, you should set an LA cap and then allow one template to be selected. That makes the exact LA value less important and places more emphasis on how good the actual template is, without needing to change around any LA numbers.

This actually seems pretty workable. There are so many templates and odd creatures, it might just be best to handle it case-by-case style like this.

[Threadnaught]

As for the actual question at hand I mostly agree with Fax but at least I want to know what level will the characters be? Assuming LA buyoff is something possible in your campaign world, then characters starting at a sufficient level can be assumed to have payed their buyoff pre-campaign as a justification for having LA "free".

I want to throw the entire book at them and the first adventure seeds are Encounter Level 2. So don't want them to start out too powerful.
Oh the irony.

The player working on his character at the moment, is that ******* Druid, who wants to play a Crusader because he mostly wants to Tank and Heal. He doesn't know what to Gestalt with, but is thinking of adding ranged combat functionality like a Sniper (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2759.0), but unlike the current Campaign I'm running, official WotC Classes are allowed and also Homebrew is banned. Though I would like to run that Arcane Swordsage as an Encounter. :smallamused:


A Divine Caster could still function by the rules in Elder Evils, provided they had a way to escape the Plane the Elder Evil was located. The real issue here is Pandorym, until the PCs travel to destroy the Obligatum Forge, that thing'll keep meddling with their ability to travel to the other Planes.


Honestly, I wouldn't set an LA target. Case in point: +4 LA lets someone score Phrenic, Half-Fey, and basically become a spellcaster while still having another point of LA for whatever they want...or they could be a Shadow Drow, and not be terribly impressive.

Instead, you should set an LA cap and then allow one template to be selected. That makes the exact LA value less important and places more emphasis on how good the actual template is, without needing to change around any LA numbers.

Okay, I'm going to aim for ECL5 as the maximum power level for any Races and Templates.



Thanks guys, expect my players creating their own threads telling you how I'm a bad DM and begging for help after their first encounter with an Allip. You already know MetaMyconid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?94474-MetaMyconid).

[Haluesen]

I want to throw the entire book at them and the first adventure seeds are Encounter Level 2. So don't want them to start out too powerful.
Oh the irony.

Heh oh man this is gonna be a long running game if the players can pull it off, those Elder Evils go way up there. The world is gonna be a big cluster-f by the end. Well then like you said ECL 5 should be a good place to start. If they want to play a race with hit die and LA, only the LA would be free right?


The player working on his character at the moment, is that ******* Druid, who wants to play a Crusader because he mostly wants to Tank and Heal. He doesn't know what to Gestalt with, but is thinking of adding ranged combat functionality like a Sniper (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2759.0), but unlike the current Campaign I'm running, official WotC Classes are allowed and also Homebrew is banned. Though I would like to run that Arcane Swordsage as an Encounter. :smallamused:

Hmm for a game like this what do you think is more important, adaptability or high focus in excelling at a few things? Because this person might be making a wrong move in branching out, I don't know.



A Divine Caster could still function by the rules in Elder Evils, provided they had a way to escape the Plane the Elder Evil was located. The real issue here is Pandorym, until the PCs travel to destroy the Obligatum Forge, that thing'll keep meddling with their ability to travel to the other Planes.

How many ways though are there to escape that plane at lvl 5 though? :smalltongue: Nevermind don't answer that.


Thanks guys, expect my players creating their own threads telling you how I'm a bad DM and begging for help after their first encounter with an Allip. You already know MetaMyconid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?94474-MetaMyconid).

I admit I am very envious, I love the Elder Evils and this game sounds intense. Wish I could join in. :smallamused: Anyway I wish your players the best in surviving, as long as they can at least.

[WhamBamSam]

I'll be honest, the binding rules still confuse me. I know what vestiges are but I've never looked deeper than that...hence why such ideas fly right over my head. :smallredface: But I can basically get why Mechanatrixes would work like that, but what source might I find those from? The regular Mechanatrix is in the Fiend Folio. As it's a Planetouched, you can apply the Lesser Planetouched rules from Player's Guide to Faerun. They're great fun in a party with a Dragonfire Adept or some other source of spammable electricity damage.


Honestly, I wouldn't set an LA target. Case in point: +4 LA lets someone score Phrenic, Half-Fey, and basically become a spellcaster while still having another point of LA for whatever they want...or they could be a Shadow Drow, and not be terribly impressive.

Instead, you should set an LA cap and then allow one template to be selected. That makes the exact LA value less important and places more emphasis on how good the actual template is, without needing to change around any LA numbers.Point. This is probably the best way to go about it.

[Threadnaught]

Heh oh man this is gonna be a long running game if the players can pull it off, those Elder Evils go way up there. The world is gonna be a big cluster-f by the end.

Yeah, Emperor Win ran a challenge for a Monk Build using the same type of game as the background.

Additionally, I've always wanted to run an Elder Evil because of the effects they have on the game world, but could never decide on which. So all of them, while over the top, fits perfectly for a high power Campaign.


Well then like you said ECL 5 should be a good place to start. If they want to play a race with hit die and LA, only the LA would be free right?

Yep, the RHD would have to be taken as Levels.


Hmm for a game like this what do you think is more important, adaptability or high focus in excelling at a few things? Because this person might be making a wrong move in branching out, I don't know.

Crusaders use melee attacks, by branching out into ranged attacks, he loses a lot of his Tanking and Healing capabilities. Of course branching out is a mistake, but I think he'll cease his obsession with ranged combat once he learns that ranged combat is only useful in Homebrew and when it's magical.


How many ways though are there to escape that plane at lvl 5 though? :smalltongue: Nevermind don't answer that.

Level 3, Caster Level 3 Rope Trick, or wait a level and Extend it for the full 8 hours needed for Rest. It's not like every Elder Evil has Divine Enervation and Divine Scourge though, I've just checked and the ones to worry about are Atropus, Pandorym and Zargon. Obviously the PCs are going to want to go after Pandorym first, even though Zargon's Sign gets to Overwhelming first and he needs taking out immediately, once they're out of the way, there's Atropus and any surviving Divine Casters receive a massive power boost.