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2014-08-23, 01:00 PM
I do get that to live one must die and death is party of life not its opposite. But for my new campaign the
main antagonist I want him to be immortal(Don't die from old age or need to eat and breathe) but I want him to be a goodlooking fellow whom no one suspects to be immortal.

How to do that? I mean he can't be a lich since they are ugly undead creatures. Is there any other way to become immortal without becoming undead?

Or he will have to be a lich who is really good with illusion spells?

AMFV
2014-08-23, 01:05 PM
I do get that to live one must die and death is party of life not its opposite. But for my new campaign the
main antagonist I want him to be immortal(Don't die from old age or need to eat and breathe) but I want him to be a goodlooking fellow whom no one suspects to be immortal.

How to do that? I mean he can't be a lich since they are ugly undead creatures. Is there any other way to become immortal without becoming undead?

Or he will have to be a lich who is really good with illusion spells?

Well Liches don't have to be ugly. They just often are, since the long-dead often don't have as much concern over making their own appearance up, since they're dead it no longer matters, at least to them. Vampires certainly work for the fluff, although they're harder to pull off. Any creature with Alter Self or Polymorph could make themselves into something else entirely. Even the dead could change shape into something that looks more living.

Elans are very close to what you're looking for, they're immortal, and can avoid eating (breathing they do do though)

Orderic
2014-08-23, 01:29 PM
How about a lich who, immediately after becoming undead, casts Gentle Repose on himself and continues doing so whenever he has a spell slot of third level or higher unused at the end of a day?

Segev
2014-08-23, 01:30 PM
Elan seems to fit the bill for you, here. There are psi powers for breathing underwater, I think.

Vampire could also work, "immortal dude nobody suspects is undead" is one of their big schticks. Lots of tell-tale weaknesses that can give him away to adventurers who know what to look for, though.

A really evil psion would not obviate the need to eat or breathe, but he could use True Mind Switch every year or few to keep in the best, youngest, and most attractive bodies. A Thrallherd would even have Believers willing to give their bodies to him.

Stellar_Magic
2014-08-23, 02:14 PM
There are a lot of options...

A dragon with polymorph.
An Outsider, say an Incubus with class levels (especially if they get class levels in something to allow for their alignment to be concealed). Also, some rules include rituals that allow someone to transform (incrementally) from a normal human to a half-fiend and ultimately become a demon themselves.

Vampire
Lich
Perhaps a curse of some sort...

daremetoidareyo
2014-08-23, 02:26 PM
Give your bad guy a magic item that makes them unable to age like a necklace or something.

Ravens_cry
2014-08-23, 02:33 PM
How about a lich who, immediately after becoming undead, casts Gentle Repose on himself and continues doing so whenever he has a spell slot of third level or higher unused at the end of a day?
Then you look like a very fresh corpse. Not the same thing at all as a living creature.
I would require Disguise check with a Preform: Acting synergy bonus (or vise versa) to really pass yourself off as a living creature. See, there's all sorts of things that an undead creature wouldn't do. Things like blinking at a regular basis, getting winded, catching ones breath in shock, breathing period actually, and even then, things like warmth and heartbeat will be harder to pull off, though the latter might be simulated with Prestidigitation.

AMFV
2014-08-23, 02:41 PM
Then you look like a very fresh corpse. Not the same thing at all as a living creature.
I would require Disguise check with a Preform: Acting synergy bonus (or vise versa) to really pass yourself off as a living creature. See, there's all sorts of things that an undead creature wouldn't do. Things like blinking at a regular basis, getting winded, catching ones breath in shock, breathing period actually, and even then, things like warmth and heartbeat will be harder to pull off, though the latter might be simulated with Prestidigitation.

You could probably cast Polymorph on yourself. I mean you're a Lich... so you have to have been a Spellcaster at some point.

Fosco the Swift
2014-08-23, 03:19 PM
Don't forget: you're the DM. You're not a player forced to obey the rules of the books, they're just guidelines for DM's. Thus: Homebrewing.
Or depending on the system you use there are a variety of options, but I'll do Pathfinder.

Level 20 Wizard can choose to gain immortality in place of a feat. ("Pathfinder: Ultimate Magic" page 86
Level 20 Alchemist can choose to gain Eternal Youth for a Grand Discovery ("Pathfinder: Advanced Player's Guide" page 31)

Or just Homebrew a new artifact that negates aging like daremetoidareyo said. For example, a cup made out of a hollowed unicorn horn blessed by such-and-such was found by your antagonist that grants immunity to aging if sipped from at least once every week. As a small twist, if he fails to drink it within a week's time he turns to dust (idea taken from one of my favorite book series). To have the eating/drinking problem removed, spend 2,500 gold pieces for a Ring of Sustenance. Or just include that power with the special uni-cup.

Don't forget, the more creative you are (while staying somewhat grounded to a slightly stretched reality) the more interesting your game and the happier your players.

Sartharina
2014-08-23, 03:33 PM
The answer, of course, is the "Outsider(Native)" type.

the_david
2014-08-23, 04:06 PM
Fosco's examples are good if you play Pathfinder, and the ring does take care of the eating and drinking part.
A strange way to solve it is to use te spell reincarnate. This would create a young adult body for the soul to inhabit.
Now how do you make sure you get reincarnated after your death? Well you've got your death insurance ofcourse! Every 6 days your insurance company will scry on you to make sure you're okay. If they happen to find a mangled corpse in your place, they teleport in and reincarnate you on the spot. All of this for a reasonable montly fee. (Or perhaps yearly, if you're on the road a lot.)
Or you know, you could cast contingency and reincarnate every couple of days, though that would be expensive... Add it to your ring of sustenance perhaps, along with something that would allow you to live without breathing?
Elves have livespans of 354-750 years, and they don't reach middleage until they're 175 and even then their appearance doesn't change that much as they age. (At least to other races. Elves don't have problems picking up on the subtle signs of aging of another elf.) And honestly, elves are usually not the baddies so this would be a nice change. This would require for elves to be rare in your campaign, I guess.

Edit: Or you could make him an outsider. Outsiders don't need to eat or sleep, but they do need to breathe. They also are pretty much immortal. You could just use whatever kind of outsider would work for you, or he could be the last of his kind and you could homebrew him as a race and give him class levels.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll have to make up some kind of evil elf that is not a drow.

KillianHawkeye
2014-08-23, 04:37 PM
Well I can't help too much with the eating and breathing part, but here's a couple for the immortality.

Book of Vile Darkness has the spell Steal Life. It's an 8th level necromancy spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Using it requires a bit of setup, evil ritual style, but it can make the caster younger weeks at a time. The spell doesn't seem to have been republished, but I doubt there's any issues with porting into a 3.5 game as is.

For somebody a little more roguish, I found a prestige class in the Faiths of Eberron book called Thief of Life. The class itself seems pretty easy to divorce from the Eberron-related fluff if you want to use it in another setting. Unfortunately, you'll need all 10 levels before you get the key ability, and it has some restrictions on its use, but it basically lets you become immortal (read: un-aging, not invincible) for a whole year if you kill an equal or higher level opponent with a Sneak Attack. The other abilities of the class aren't bad, either.

sleepyphoenixx
2014-08-23, 04:56 PM
There are quite a few classes that change you into an outsider, elemental or fey.
The easiest method though would be either the spell Kissed by the Ages (Dr354) or the Grey Portrait (CoR).
There's also an Elixier of Immortality in Dungeon #112, p.80, but that one makes you undying but still aging so you'll have to combine it with Timeless Body or something similar.

2014-08-23, 05:35 PM
I think i will go with a "The Picture of Dorian Gray" kind of thing. Thank you all. But I don't plan to use psionics and I have no idea what is an Elan besides a blonde bard.

But reading Order of the Stick after Roy was turned into a bone golem. Is it possible to make a flash golem out of a whole body not just chunks of it?

AMFV
2014-08-23, 05:40 PM
I think i will go with a "The Picture of Dorian Gray" kind of thing. Thank you all. But I don't plan to use psionics and I have no idea what is an Elan besides a blonde bard.

But reading Order of the Stick after Roy was turned into a bone golem. Is it possible to make a flash golem out of a whole body not just chunks of it?

Not if you want to maintain sentience.

An Elan is a humanoid who is altered, they live forever, and they can use Psionic power points (of which they get one) to survive indefinitely without food or water. They don't have to be a Psionic class either, so you could just use the race and make them another class. They are also notably available on the SRD

Erik Vale
2014-08-23, 07:02 PM
The answer, of course, is the "Outsider(Native)" type.

Nope, Outsider, Natives still age.
Killoren, Neraph and Warforged are the 0 LA early bird options. Otherwise, Double Polymorph Any Object or layered Persisted Polymorph into some sort of Construct, Outsider or Fey.
And then, there are the spells/items as mentioned before, though the spell is Dragon Mag and DMs have a habit of not allowing it.

If they do though, Try to convince your DM to allow you Wedded to History, and have him 'fix' it by adding the RACSD Endless feature to what it grants. I personally like using WtH[Wanderer]+Bard with Bardic knack to have all the skills. [All skills become untrained, skills normally trained only take -4 if you have no ranks, Bardic Knack gives you ranks. You also get a DC 15 Int check to understand/speak any language]

AMFV
2014-08-23, 07:25 PM
Nope, Outsider, Natives still age.
Killoren, Neraph and Warforged are the 0 LA early bird options. Otherwise, Double Polymorph Any Object or layered Persisted Polymorph into some sort of Construct, Outsider or Fey.
And then, there are the spells/items as mentioned before, though the spell is Dragon Mag and DMs have a habit of not allowing it.

You missed Elan on the 0 LA options. Also Dragonwrought Kobolds probably have some interesting relationships with age. Although they may die like Dragons with the whole harrowing thing.

Dorian Gray
2014-08-23, 07:39 PM
I think i will go with a "The Picture of Dorian Gray" kind of thing. Thank you all. But I don't plan to use psionics and I have no idea what is an Elan besides a blonde bard.

But reading Order of the Stick after Roy was turned into a bone golem. Is it possible to make a flash golem out of a whole body not just chunks of it?

Trust me, it isn't as good as you would think. Turns out you die instantly if the portrait is destroyed, and there are a host of other drawbacks that I could elaborate on.

Alex12
2014-08-23, 07:52 PM
Then you look like a very fresh corpse. Not the same thing at all as a living creature.
I would require Disguise check with a Preform: Acting synergy bonus (or vise versa) to really pass yourself off as a living creature. See, there's all sorts of things that an undead creature wouldn't do. Things like blinking at a regular basis, getting winded, catching ones breath in shock, breathing period actually, and even then, things like warmth and heartbeat will be harder to pull off, though the latter might be simulated with Prestidigitation.
From a fluff perspective, Necropolitans (undead template from Libris Mortis) are probably a better choice than liches. Necropolitans have this weird undead metabolism thing that means that they still get natural healing, and can even heal from ability damage at the same rate as they did when they were alive. You could easily argue that that means that, while they're still undead and thus don't have to do things like breathe, they tend to do it anyways because they're at least somewhat similar to living things, just flipped over the death axis. Plus, Necropolitans are much easier to incorporate at lower levels than liches.
There's also the second-level spell Disguise Undead from the Spell Compendium.

Not if you want to maintain sentience.

An Elan is a humanoid who is altered, they live forever, and they can use Psionic power points (of which they get one) to survive indefinitely without food or water. They don't have to be a Psionic class either, so you could just use the race and make them another class. They are also notably available on the SRD
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans
And they have no maximum age. I know I for one would be totally accepting of Elans instead having aging be optional, not gaining either age penalties or bonuses.

You missed Elan on the 0 LA options. Also Dragonwrought Kobolds probably have some interesting relationships with age. Although they may die like Dragons with the whole harrowing thing.
Necropolitans are technically LA 0 (they just lose a level and then some XP upon becoming undead)

AMFV
2014-08-23, 09:45 PM
Necropolitans are technically LA 0 (they just lose a level and then some XP upon becoming undead)

And if I was making a list, I'd have included them:smalltongue:. However, they have the same issues with decay and such that Liches would, without the guaranteed spellcasting to fix it.

Arbane
2014-08-23, 10:18 PM
A strange way to solve it is to use te spell reincarnate. This would create a young adult body for the soul to inhabit.
Now how do you make sure you get reincarnated after your death? Well you've got your death insurance ofcourse! Every 6 days your insurance company will scry on you to make sure you're okay. If they happen to find a mangled corpse in your place, they teleport in and reincarnate you on the spot. All of this for a reasonable montly fee. (Or perhaps yearly, if you're on the road a lot.)
Or you know, you could cast contingency and reincarnate every couple of days, though that would be expensive...


In one Pathfinder game I was in, I was thinking of getting my Witch the Forced Reincarnation Hex (Will save or the target dies, and is immediately reincarnated naked, race-randomized, and down two levels) and using it as a cheaty sort of life-extension, as nothing in the book says you can't use it on yourself.

AMFV
2014-08-23, 10:33 PM
In one Pathfinder game I was in, I was thinking of getting my Witch the Forced Reincarnation Hex (Will save or the target dies, and is immediately reincarnated naked, race-randomized, and down two levels) and using it as a cheaty sort of life-extension, as nothing in the book says you can't use it on yourself.

For what it's worth you could probably use PAO for the same effect. A lich could turn themselves into a less decayed lich and that should be permanent, they'd just need to do it fairly regularly depending on weather conditions.

Knaight
2014-08-23, 10:53 PM
What game is this for? It's in the general roleplaying section, and the specific game and possibly edition of the game is pretty key. There being liches suggests D&D, but even then it varies highly by edition.

Ravens_cry
2014-08-24, 12:04 AM
You could probably cast Polymorph on yourself. I mean you're a Lich... so you have to have been a Spellcaster at some point.
Yeah, but that's like using a Davy Crockett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29), way overkill. Plus, mundane checks can't be dispelled.

AMFV
2014-08-24, 12:12 AM
Yeah, but that's like using a Davy Crockett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29), way overkill. Plus, mundane checks can't be dispelled.

True, but you don't become a Lich because you're a fan of subtle. And if people are trying to dispel you then you're already pretty screwed over. And you could even combine it with the mundane checks as well. For even more overkill.

Kerinserval
2014-08-24, 04:18 AM
I think i will go with a "The Picture of Dorian Gray" kind of thing. Thank you all. But I don't plan to use psionics and I have no idea what is an Elan besides a blonde bard.

There is an Artifact which is an expy of the picture: Gray Portrait, which you can find in Champions of Ruin, p43. It has the added benefit of shunting negative levels and ability drain to the portrait.

JetThomasBoat
2014-08-24, 07:24 AM
There was a character in one of the FR novels that was some kind of mage very much tied to aberrations who basically became an aberrant creature of some kind, and through the prestige class or template? (I really have no idea) he became immortal. And it specifically mentioned him not needing to eat or sleep or(I think) breath.

You could try to work that somewhat into the campaign or his backstory? It may not be ideal for the person in mind, but there are many PrCs that give spellcasters different creature types and if one of those would fit the character, then you could work in that it also makes them effectively un-aging.

2014-08-24, 09:54 AM
Trust me, it isn't as good as you would think. Turns out you die instantly if the portrait is destroyed, and there are a host of other drawbacks that I could elaborate on.

I know that and that is why it is going to be so very cool when the players find the painting.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/262/c/8/c855e9cfe25016d99c492f2ede324b32-d5f9apr.jpg

Ravens_cry
2014-08-24, 10:31 AM
True, but you don't become a Lich because you're a fan of subtle. And if people are trying to dispel you then you're already pretty screwed over. And you could even combine it with the mundane checks as well. For even more overkill.
The former depends on the Lich, and, as for the latter, it could be part of a normal security check in a world with fairly prevalent magic. No one goes before the king armed, and no one goes before the king with a spell active.

AMFV
2014-08-24, 10:34 AM
The former depends on the Lich, and, as for the latter, it could be part of a normal security check in a world with fairly prevalent magic. No one goes before the king armed, and no one goes before the king with a spell active.

I'm not sure if that'd always be the case. It depends on the easiness of it. Also you're presupposing that nobody uses magic to overcome physical disability. Which is I expect not the case.

Ravens_cry
2014-08-24, 11:03 AM
I'm not sure if that'd always be the case. It depends on the easiness of it. Also you're presupposing that nobody uses magic to overcome physical disability. Which is I expect not the case.
Perhaps, but even that would be thoroughly checked out and vetted before hand. None of that silly 'Deny an old man his staff' (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922) shenanigans.:smalltongue:

AMFV
2014-08-24, 11:11 AM
Perhaps, but even that would be thoroughly checked out and vetted before hand. None of that silly 'Deny an old man his staff' (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922) shenanigans.:smalltongue:

Well but as an epic level caster (or near that) you should be able to devise some defenses against that. Admittedly that'd be more overkill, but that seems like fun at this point.

Edit: Also a high enough bluff and diplomacy could probably override that as well.

The Duskblade
2014-08-26, 11:11 AM
For somebody a little more roguish, I found a prestige class in the Faiths of Eberron book called Thief of Life. The class itself seems pretty easy to divorce from the Eberron-related fluff if you want to use it in another setting. Unfortunately, you'll need all 10 levels before you get the key ability, and it has some restrictions on its use, but it basically lets you become immortal (read: un-aging, not invincible) for a whole year if you kill an equal or higher level opponent with a Sneak Attack. The other abilities of the class aren't bad, either.

This is my personal favourite because I love the inherit catch 22 involved. To maintain immortality the villain would need to find and kill someone equally strong or stronger (atleast in terms of hit dice) at least once a year. Not necessarily a problem when he is level 15 or so, but picking on high level opponents is going to cause him to level up over time. Limiting the pool of viable opponents and raising the risk involved. Especially as the Eliminsters of the world are probably going to start noticing if epic level characters start disappearing.

Orderic
2014-08-26, 02:49 PM
I am sure that even at those high levels there are enough monsters that no one cares about. And if you can't find one, just summon one. Just try to find monsters with a high amount of hit dice for their challenge rating.

KillianHawkeye
2014-08-26, 04:05 PM
This is my personal favourite because I love the inherit catch 22 involved. To maintain immortality the villain would need to find and kill someone equally strong or stronger (atleast in terms of hit dice) at least once a year. Not necessarily a problem when he is level 15 or so, but picking on high level opponents is going to cause him to level up over time. Limiting the pool of viable opponents and raising the risk involved. Especially as the Eliminsters of the world are probably going to start noticing if epic level characters start disappearing.


I am sure that even at those high levels there are enough monsters that no one cares about. And if you can't find one, just summon one. Just try to find monsters with a high amount of hit dice for their challenge rating.

Immortal dragon slayer FTW! :smallcool::smallbiggrin:

Daishain
2014-08-26, 04:53 PM
Not truly immortality, but this would have the same effect if properly used.

Psionic characters can get access to True Mind Switch, a high level power that lets you permanently swap bodies with whomever you choose. (some setups can get it more easily than others)

There's a one minute manifesting time, a hefty XP cost, and you lose a level if your last body is killed, but those can be dealt with pretty easily by the time a character is able to manifest L9 powers. Whenever the wrinkles start to show, just have your BBEG kidnap some weak willed young person with nice physical attributes, and make the swap. Bonus points if they place the blame for your latest exploits on the guy they swapped with.

This also can lead to some ability point shenanigans by having a venerable mind in an adult body. Especially if the character had extremely high mental scores that they sacrificed on the physical ones to gain.