Any comprehensive list of must-have-in-spellbook Wizard spells?

[Nettlekid]

The whole reason Wizards, Clerics, and Archivists are Tier 1 while Sorcerers and Favored Souls are Tier 2 is that while Sorcerers and Favored Souls can do anything that Wizards and Clerics can do on any one day with equivalent power levels, the Wizard and Cleric have a much greater number of options of spells at their disposal and can be completely different on a day-to-day basis.

The thing is, I don't actually know what spells those ARE. Whenever I theoretically build a Wizard I tend to pick out the 2 spells per spell level per caster level that the Wizard gains by leveling up, largely ignoring their ability to add more spells to their spellbook unless there are like five spells in one spell level I really want, and then plan out the spells I'd prepare on a daily basis and vary from that setup very little, save maybe changing the number of which spell I had prepared. I think of Clerics similarly, making a single list and expecting to use that list on all days.

That's dumb. That's the wrong way to play Wizards and Clerics. I know that. But I feel compelled to try to hedge all my bets and squeeze utility, battlefield control, save-or-die, blasting, whatever spells all together in my daily allotment (the way you'd pick Sorcerer spells) instead of prepping an "out-of-combat" list, a "this will be a big fight" list, a "travelling and adventuring" list, etc.

Now, considering how highly praised Wizards are in optimization forums, I have every confidence that people here who play Wizards have already compiled such spell lists. So um, where are they? Does anyone have lists that they want to share? And to be clear, I'm not asking "what are the best spells of a school?" or "what are the essential magical effects that an average adventurer needs?" because I know there are tons of spells in the Wizard handbook, and lists of essential effects in the Necessary Items handbook among others. My big question is: What does an average 17-20th level Wizard's spellbook(s) contain?

[jiriku]

Your question really has no single answer. A lot of players ban 1, 2, 3 schools, and ban different schools, and specialize in different schools. Different parties have different amount of overlaps between characters and different gaps in capability that need to be filled. Different campaigns demand different focuses (I've played in games where undead composed 90% of the enemies, and games where we never saw so much as a single skeleton). The best you can really do is choose a broad variety of spells that you know to be strong and that accomplish specific common things that you know you'll need (damage, travel, defense, info-gathering, etc), then fill in the gaps with spells that seem to recommend themselves based on your particular party composition and campaign meta.

[Nettlekid]

Your question really has no single answer. A lot of players ban 1, 2, 3 schools, and ban different schools, and specialize in different schools. Different parties have different amount of overlaps between characters and different gaps in capability that need to be filled. Different campaigns demand different focuses (I've played in games where undead composed 90% of the enemies, and games where we never saw so much as a single skeleton). The best you can really do is choose a broad variety of spells that you know to be strong and that accomplish specific common things that you know you'll need (damage, travel, defense, info-gathering, etc), then fill in the gaps with spells that seem to recommend themselves based on your particular party composition and campaign meta.

It's true that the banned schools are a factor, but if there was a Generalist Wizard Spellbook that could then be trimmed of the spells belonging to banned schools, that would suit this fine. Also it seems like the usually banned schools are Enchantment, Evocation, and sometimes Necromancy (maybe Illusion), so if that's what the default assumption was I'd personally be okay with that.

As for the differences in party, or campaign focus, or enemy types, that's exactly what I'm talking about. A Sorcerer's spell list would be drastically different if they knew the campaign was going to be more about social intrigue than battle, or about fighting specific types of enemies, or whatever, but this comprehensive spellbook I'm looking for would be a go-to resource that shows how Wizards are a cut above the rest by having a list which could be customized based on just such specifications. I'm thinking that it would have to have a lot of very specialized spells pertinent to only a few situations, to highlight just how precisely a Wizard can deal with problems that arise. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

[jiriku]

Ah. To my knowledge such a thing does not exist. If you find one and it doesn't suck, please share it.

[Nettlekid]

Ah. To my knowledge such a thing does not exist. If you find one and it doesn't suck, please share it.

It's got to exist though, right? At the very least, all these TOers who build Incantatrices and Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil up to level 20 must have their own spellbooks which are full of spells they think are essential to high level play.

[deuxhero]

Prestidigitation and Read Magic are the two absolute essential ones any Wizard will have. They are of course 2 of the 4 spells EVER Wizard knows at some point.

[Emperor Tippy]

It sounds great in theory but it runs into a lot of problems in practice.

Let's just, for example, talk about Foresight.

On its own its nothing special and in a core only game it's one of the last 9th level spells that you want to acquire. Now throw in the PHB2 and Celerity and Foresight becomes something that you should have up every second of every day at levels 17+. Why? Because Celerity without Foresight is nice but can't prevent sudden death and Foresight without Celerity is likewise unlikely to seriously mitigate against a surprise attack by a prepared enemy at this level. But combined they make one of the most powerful combinations in the entire game; you can always act and that is huge. Sudden death has just gone from something that is highly likely at level 17+ to something that is incredibly difficult for anyone to pull off at levels 17+.

But throw in the MM2 and things change again. That source has the Air Weird with the Prescience (Su) ability which lets it use Foresight at CL 18 at will as a free action. So if you have Shapechange up then you can spend one round every 180 minutes in Air Weird form to renew your Foresight and save on the spell.

Or take Wish. It's something that any ECL 17+ caster should have access to but if the Fiend Folio is an allowed source then Shapechange gets it for you via Zodar and the importance of having Wish in your spell book drops drastically. Or take a core only game. Gate can call you up a Solar and you can order it to give you some of its blood before making a Simulacrum of said Solar and from then on your have an utterly loyal minion that gets 1 free Wish per day to give you, the Wish spell is still nice to have in one of your slots for emergency needs but it has dropped from vital to simply nice.

But now add in the Spell Compendium and the 8th level spell Spell Engine becomes available. If you use Wish to emulate Spell Engine then for 5,000 XP you can totally redo your entire list of prepared spells as a Standard Action if you haven't barred Abjuration. This makes Wish a spell that becomes absolutely critical to have prepared in a spell slot at all times simply because it ensures that you will always have the ideal spell list for a given situation if you need it.

Now take something like Teleport. Shapechange into an Archon of any kind and you have At Will Greater Teleport and with a portable hole or the like you can bring the entire party along. You should probably still have the spells in your spell book but it has suddenly gone from incredibly vital to just nice.

Or look at Astral Projection. Use Planar Binding to get a Nightmare or make a Simulacrum of one or Shapechange into one and suddenly the spell is about at the bottom of the list in importance for your spell book but if those possibilities are voided then it sudden jumps up to the top quarter of the 9th level spells.

As for other spells, look at something like Smokey Confinement (6th level spell, Complete Mage). On its own it is not that special or vital. Sure it lets you stick a dying individual into stasis until you can fix them or hold a prisoner with no chance of unassisted escape or sneak past guards or whatever but there are tons of ways to do all of that (even if SC is one of the better ones) but it becomes incredibly good when combined with the Planar Binding line or Ice Assassin/Simulacrum. You can carry an entire army of high level combatants in a single crystal vial via nesting them and then just throw the vial to call up a thousand Pit Fiends (as one example).

Or take Permanency. If you have a Solar on hand (Implore, Ice Assassin, Simulacrum, Gate) then it can cast free Permanency three times per day and thus makes the spell's position in your spell book drop drastically but if you can't make use of a Solar then it becomes much better to have in your spell book as a Thought Bottle combined with it drops the XP costs from ruinously high to fully acceptable.

Or take Disjunction. In a no house-rules game it is a must have but in a lot of games it is virtually never used either because of houserules or gentlemen's agreements, in which case having a scroll or two of it for emergencies is generally a better idea than scribing it.

Or look at Spontaneous Divination. Without it there are a lot of Divination spells that are unlikely to ever make it into your spell book simply because they are way too situational and yet aren't useful outside of those immediate situations (or its not important/possible to wait 15 minutes to prepare the spell) but with it you can spontaneously cast any Divination that you have in your spell book, which means that with Spontaneous Divination you should put all of the Divination's (regardless of perceived usefulness) into your spellbook simply because you will effectively always have them prepared and ready whenever you could use them in whatever quantity that you desired.

And then you have the issue of what level you are starting at. A spell book developed organically from levels 1 to 20 is highly likely to have Color Spray in it simply because it is incredibly useful at low levels but if you are starting at level 20 then it's pretty much worthless and is unlikely to be put into your spellbook until all other more relevant options are taken.

[Story]

I tend not to very my prepared list that much since you never know when the DM is going to throw a curveball at you, so it pays to be prepared for everything. Which usually means generic high utility spells like Silent Image, Web, Stinking Cloud, Polymorph, etc. Plus several slots will be taken up by your basic always on defenses.

If you want to find good spells, the best places to look are the SRD Spell list (since most of the OP spells are core) and the God's Eyes/Tools/etc handbooks.

[deuxhero]

And then you have the issue of what level you are starting at. A spell book developed organically from levels 1 to 20 is highly likely to have Color Spray in it simply because it is incredibly useful at low levels but if you are starting at level 20 then it's pretty much worthless and is unlikely to be put into your spellbook until all other more relevant options are taken.

There are Wizards who don't get Blessed Books? They pay for themselves in short order.

[bekeleven]

Tippy: Perhaps a list of all good spells would be better, with short notes or mentions of alternative spell sources.

Something like 5-10 spells/school/level. It sounds manageable.

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy: Perhaps a list of all good spells would be better, with short notes or mentions of alternative spell sources.

Something like 5-10 spells/school/level. It sounds manageable.

There are hundreds of those floating around and, again, it varies.

Just look at the various 9th level spells.

Core only the list tends to go: Shapechange, Wish, Gate, Time Stop, Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, and then all of the rest in pretty much any order.

Go outside core though and that changes drastically. Foresight is above Gate if the PHB2 is in play and above Wish if the Spell Compendium isn't in play. Throw in Frostburn and Ice Assassin jumps up to tied with Shapechange for best 9th level spell. Throw in the Book of Vile Darkness and Mind Rape jumps into the top 5 or so, especially if you are willing to use Disjunction (Quickened Disjunction via Greater Rod of Quicken to strip Mind Blank and shapechange followed by Mind Rape and about 90% of the creatures in the game become your slaves if they fail their Will Save) but if you aren't playing with Disjunction then Mind Rape is only in the top half of 9th level spells.

If the Epic Level Handbook is an allowed source then Genesis jumps right up there to just below Shapechange and Ice Assassin as the most powerful second level spell and yet if you can use Wish to its full extent then using an XP free Wish to get a scroll of Genesis is better than scribing it or spending a spell known on it.

If you are playing high op then every single spell in the game is in your spell book for free because you can use free Wish's to create scrolls of them and get the Blessed Book's to scribe them into while creating a fast time plane via Genesis to make what would normally be years of scribing into (prime material time) a round of scribing and while doing so use Gate Scrolls to bring in Mindflayers before ordering them not to resist and using Ensul's Soultheft to rip the life from them to extend your own life. Or get an Ice Assassin of yourself to use Kissed By the Ages on you and thus make you immune to aging.

Generally you should just scribe whatever spells you get the opportunity to scribe with relatively few of them being worth going out of your way to acquire beyond the ones you automatically get for free upon leveling up. As for which ones of those to take, its generally fairly obvious.

[Lightlawbliss]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394 (reply 2) Is the closest I could find.

[Story]

There are Wizards who don't get Blessed Books? They pay for themselves in short order.

Not if you use the Matering A Foreign Spellbook rules.

[bjoern]

Here is a good compilation that I use all the time.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman

[AMFV]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4488.0

Here you go! That's for generalists but it has almost all of the must have ones on it. And there aren't too many since it's the easy bake thing.

[Nettlekid]

Tippy, how do you always seem to answer the exact question I'm not asking?


http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394 (reply 2) Is the closest I could find.


http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4488.0

Here you go! That's for generalists but it has almost all of the must have ones on it. And there aren't too many since it's the easy bake thing.


Here is a good compilation that I use all the time.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman

AHA! Now these are exactly what I was looking for, especially that last one. With a long list of spells (just the ones from the PHB and SpC unfortunately, which leaves out some interesting niche ones but encompasses most of the standards) and brief descriptions of their effect and more importantly purpose to a Wizard, it helps isolate which spells the Wizard will want to prepare on different occasions.

[atomicwaffle]

I find transmutation spells to be bloody useful. Like, beyond useful. Applicable in a variety of situations. If i were to specialize i'd ban necromancy (since the other school everyone bans is illusion). I don't like banning Necromancy because Ray of Enfeeblement wins encounters. Everything stated above is more personal preference than anything.

Anyhoo, insanely useful Transmutation spells by level (sources: PHB, SC)

PHB:
0: Mage Hand, Mending, Message
1: Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Jump
2: Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock (THIS), Spider Climb (although this is my most hated spell. component is eating a live spider and i hate spiders), Whispering Wind
3: Blink, Fly, Haste, Slow, Water Breathing
4: Polymorph, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Mass Reduce Person, Stone Shape
5: Baleful Polymorph, Fabricate, Overland Flight, Passwall, Telekinesis, Transmute Rock/Mud
6: Disintigrate, Flesh to Stone, Mordenkainen's Lucubration, Move Earth, Stone To Flesh
7: Control Weather, Reverse Gravity
8: Iron Body, Polymorph Any Object
9: Shapechange, Time Stop

SC:
0: Amanuensis, Stick
1: Ebon Eyes, Fist of Stone (my fav lvl 1 spell of all time), Wings of the Sea
2: Belker Claws, Earthbind, Swift Fly, Swim
3: Bite of the Wererat, Rust Ray
4: Bite of the Werewolf, Metal Melt
5: Bite of the Wereboar, Earth Reaver, Mass Fly
6: Bite of the Weretiger, Extract Water Elemental (this is sick), Stone Body
7: Bite of the Werebear, Body of War, Elemental Body, Synostodweomer
8: Excavate
9: Transmute Rock to Lava, Undermaster

All very cool and useful spells.

[AMFV]

I find transmutation spells to be bloody useful. Like, beyond useful. Applicable in a variety of situations. If i were to specialize i'd ban necromancy (since the other school everyone bans is illusion). I don't like banning Necromancy because Ray of Enfeeblement wins encounters. Everything stated above is more personal preference than anything.

Anyhoo, insanely useful Transmutation spells by level (sources: PHB, SC)

PHB:
0: Mage Hand, Mending, Message
1: Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Jump
2: Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock (THIS), Spider Climb (although this is my most hated spell. component is eating a live spider and i hate spiders), Whispering Wind
3: Blink, Fly, Haste, Slow, Water Breathing
4: Polymorph, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Mass Reduce Person, Stone Shape
5: Baleful Polymorph, Fabricate, Overland Flight, Passwall, Telekinesis, Transmute Rock/Mud
6: Disintigrate, Flesh to Stone, Mordenkainen's Lucubration, Move Earth, Stone To Flesh
7: Control Weather, Reverse Gravity
8: Iron Body, Polymorph Any Object
9: Shapechange, Time Stop

SC:
0: Amanuensis, Stick
1: Ebon Eyes, Fist of Stone (my fav lvl 1 spell of all time), Wings of the Sea
2: Belker Claws, Earthbind, Swift Fly, Swim
3: Bite of the Wererat, Rust Ray
4: Bite of the Werewolf, Metal Melt
5: Bite of the Wereboar, Earth Reaver, Mass Fly
6: Bite of the Weretiger, Extract Water Elemental (this is sick), Stone Body
7: Bite of the Werebear, Body of War, Elemental Body, Synostodweomer
8: Excavate
9: Transmute Rock to Lava, Undermaster

All very cool and useful spells.

If you can find it, Treantmonk's Guides include large sections on each school of spells. If anybody wants those and they can't be found, I have them archived on my machine.

[bjoern]

I find transmutation spells to be bloody useful. Like, beyond useful. Applicable in a variety of situations. If i were to specialize i'd ban necromancy (since the other school everyone bans is illusion). I don't like banning Necromancy because Ray of Enfeeblement wins encounters. Everything stated above is more personal preference than anything.

Anyhoo, insanely useful Transmutation spells by level (sources: PHB, SC)

PHB:
0: Mage Hand, Mending, Message
1: Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat, Jump
2: Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock (THIS), Spider Climb (although this is my most hated spell. component is eating a live spider and i hate spiders), Whispering Wind
3: Blink, Fly, Haste, Slow, Water Breathing
4: Polymorph, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Mass Reduce Person, Stone Shape
5: Baleful Polymorph, Fabricate, Overland Flight, Passwall, Telekinesis, Transmute Rock/Mud
6: Disintigrate, Flesh to Stone, Mordenkainen's Lucubration, Move Earth, Stone To Flesh
7: Control Weather, Reverse Gravity
8: Iron Body, Polymorph Any Object
9: Shapechange, Time Stop

SC:
0: Amanuensis, Stick
1: Ebon Eyes, Fist of Stone (my fav lvl 1 spell of all time), Wings of the Sea
2: Belker Claws, Earthbind, Swift Fly, Swim
3: Bite of the Wererat, Rust Ray
4: Bite of the Werewolf, Metal Melt
5: Bite of the Wereboar, Earth Reaver, Mass Fly
6: Bite of the Weretiger, Extract Water Elemental (this is sick), Stone Body
7: Bite of the Werebear, Body of War, Elemental Body, Synostodweomer
8: Excavate
9: Transmute Rock to Lava, Undermaster

All very cool and useful spells.

I prefer to ban enchantment, evocation, and necromancy in that order.

Enchantment because as you progress in levels , "immune to mind affecting" shows up more and more and basically shuts down the school

Evocation because damage is better from conjuration as from conjuration it is SR:no and the other useful evocation spells are better when cast from illusion (contingency, force cage) because that way the have a shorter cast time and no expensive spell components.

Necromancy just because its the odd man out. Its a great school but if forced to pick between necro, conj, illusion, trans, or abj , necro comes up short. If you've got a good cleric with a handle on abjuratuon you could ban that instead and keep necro. But if you're planning on going incantatrix, you can't ban abjuration so your back to banning necro again.

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, how do you always seem to answer the exact question I'm not asking?

My big question is: What does an average 17-20th level Wizard's spellbook(s) contain?

The answer to that is everything. Free Wish's let you get the raw materials (scrolls to scribe from, blessed books to scribe into, the inks to scribe with) at that point and leave the only limit as the amount of time you have to spend writing the spells into your book. That to can be worked around thanks to fast time planes.

If you want something more specific then it becomes detail dependent. What resources do you have access to, how much time do you have to scribe, what kinds of threats are you regularly facing, what kinds of activities are you regularly engaging in, what is your alignment and moral code, etc.?

I mean on a day without any adventuring planned and no expected threats your list of prepared spells is basically going to be enough Shapechange to last the day, one Quickened Wish via Greater Rod, a half dozen or so Celerity's, a Mindblank. any specific spells relevant for your plans for the day, a Persistent Prestidigitation, and the rest empty slots. Why? Because the Wish can emulate Spell Engine to give you the spell list that you need as a swift action if you are suddenly faced with an immediate emergency, the Celerities ensure that you have the time to act if suddenly attacked, the Shapechange and Prestidigitation cover virtually all utility casting that you could need for the day, and you will have the time to spend 15 minutes preparing a spell if you need something else throughout the day.

Before you go to bed you dump all of your remaining spell slots into divination's using Spontaneous Divination to figure out what situations you are likely to face in the coming days, weeks, months, etc. so that you are ready to face those threats.

A generalized adventuring spell list is going to have the whole suite of standard defensive spells and multiple types of offensive spells.

When you know the situation that you are going to face then you spend some time pouring over your spell book (or the entire list of spells in the game) to find whatever combination most effectively solves the problem in the manner most conducive to your greater goals and then prepare those spells.

[Tvtyrant]

I have a list of over powered spells if that helps? Some of them you probably don't need because they overlap, like Polymorph and Draconic Polymorph.

1st.
• Silent Image
• Nerveskitter
2nd.
• Alter Self
• Wraithstrike
• Ray of Stupidity
• Heroics
3rd.
• Shivering Touch
• Wind Wall
4th.
• Polymorph
• Celerity
5th.
• Magic Jar
• Planar Binding, Lesser
• Draconic Polymorph
6th.
• Planar Binding
7th.
• Simulacrum
• Limited Wish
8th.
• Planar Binding, Greater
• Polymorph Any Object
• Greater Celerity
• Embrace the Dark Chaos
9th.
• Gate
• Shapechange
• Genesis
• Ice Assasin
• Disjunction
• Mindrape
• Wish

[Nettlekid]

*snip*
I'd hope you could imagine that in looking for the answer to the question "What does a 17-20th level Wizard's spellbook contain" I was asking for something a little more concrete than either "everything, next question" or "Shapechange and a bunch of other spells that don't matter." Because yeah, obviously Shapechange is incredibly powerful and opens up more than a spellbook's-worth of abilities in Su form on its own, and because of that a character could basically rely on Shapechange and little else. That's sort of the opposite of what I was asking for. I was asking for all the little niche spells that Wizards can have in their books, probably not often prepared, but available for use when they need it. Sure, a Wizard can more or less have every spell they at their fingertips at all times, but I wasn't asking how to do that. That was not the question I was asking. The question I was asking was answered well by bjoern.

[Story]

I prefer Treantmonk's lists to Logicninja, but at any rate, you might as well read all of guides and pick out your favorites. That's what I normally do. Sometimes I look through books for gems that might have been overlooked but almost all the best spells are already well known.

[Nettlekid]

I prefer Treantmonk's lists to Logicninja, but at any rate, you might as well read all of guides and pick out your favorites. That's what I normally do. Sometimes I look through books for gems that might have been overlooked but almost all the best spells are already well known.

I do really like Treantmonk's lists, and I usually look them over, but they're sort of backwards from what I want here. Because they're very school-focused, it's like they follow a pattern of "Here's a strong spell, what can it do? (BC, blast, debuff, etc)" rather than what I'm thinking about here which is "We need a spell that can (BC, blast, debuff, etc), what's the best spell for the job?"

[Tvtyrant]

I do really like Treantmonk's lists, and I usually look them over, but they're sort of backwards from what I want here. Because they're very school-focused, it's like they follow a pattern of "Here's a strong spell, what can it do? (BC, blast, debuff, etc)" rather than what I'm thinking about here which is "We need a spell that can (BC, blast, debuff, etc), what's the best spell for the job?"

What categories would you pick? Control, Debuff, Blast, defenses, buff, movement, versatility?