[3.PF] Animal companions. A 2nd PC for the same player?

[Fenryr]

Hello and hi!

This is a rant/please correct me/question thread.

How sharp and smart is an animal companion? I am quite sure animal companions (magical beast or not) still need Handle Animal checks and are limited to Tricks. Problem is Player claims that a Magical Beast, Griffon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/griffon), with 10 Int (some archetype granting Advanced template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/necromancers-of-the-northwest---paladin-archetypes/chevalier) on the animal) should OBEY EVERYTHING (logical, nothing too stupid or dangerous) because he is smarter than a deer and has "Languages Common (cannot speak)".


... An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.

Source is: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fq#v5748eaic9osa

I am aware that because it's an animal companion the Handle Animal checks are free action.


You can teach an animal a specific trick with one week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks.

Source is: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/handle-animal under Teach an Animal a Trick. BUT the FAQ says "An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2." I am ok with that. He can learn more tricks. My main problem is that the Griffon is played like a 2nd character. He can make it's own decisions, think ahead and acts sharper than Lassie.

There have been several situations during the campaign where the Paladin was quite injured (and once unconscious) and the Griffon still charged to face enemies. While the Paladin is injured is ok: the Paladin is giving an order but what about the unconscious Paladin?

Am I missing something? Should the Mount be played like a 2nd PC?

[eggynack]

I'm not super familiar with PF, so I don't know the precise methodology at work here, but 10 intelligence is about average human intelligence. Basically, figure out what you would do if your player had a normal human on his team, intelligence-wise, and do that. If you would personally control such a character, and have it generally obey commands (assuming the level of understanding you'd have from a typical human), then do that, and if you'd have the player do so, then that's the thing to do. Really up to you, at that point. I'd probably skip the handle animal/tricks setup though. Doesn't make much sense on a being of average human intelligence. I'd just think of it as mediocre leadership.

[satorian]

INT 10 means it is as smart as the average person. As such, yes, it should be able to make its own decisions, take initiative (not in the mechanics sense, but in the vernacular sense) and generally be a nonliterate person as smart as your average farmer or city guard. However, that doesn't mean it is a second PC. When a PC has leadership, the follower should follow the orders of the PC, but it should be played by the DM. The same is true here.

In play, what this means is that the player should in tight situations not say "my griffon does X", but rather "I tell my griffon to do X", and the DM should make the griffon do that unless something very bizarre happens. Also, the griffon should certainly make its own choices and attack or take other action to the benefit of its master, but do so under the control of the DM. To be clear: it should act as a reasonably intelligent person who loves the paladin and is brave and competent would act, but is not played by the paladin.

[ibtfu]

There have been several situations during the campaign where the Paladin was quite injured (and once unconscious) and the Griffon still charged to face enemies. While the Paladin is injured is ok: the Paladin is giving an order but what about the unconscious Paladin?

Am I missing something? Should the Mount be played like a 2nd PC?

From the core rulebook p.97:

Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready
to defend you if no threat is present), even without any
command being given. Alternatively, you can command
the animal to defend another specific character.

[ngilop]

of course the griffon I going to be performing like a 2nd character, I literally is that's kinda the whole schitck for that particular paladina rchetype.


that being said it don't matter if it is a an animal or not.

ithas a 10 Int, would you tell a guy who had a 10 int as a human summoner that he is too stupid to be able to plan, then link all these handle animal rules that have ZERO to do withhim like you did in your post justnow?

no, so why would you do it to the griffon of the paladin that has an intelligence of 10,and is thereby ignoring all of those animal handleing rules

in short. your player is 100% right on that the griffon IS smarter than a deer, take a look at the diferent types one is an animal another is a magical beast. one has an intelligence of 2 while the other has an intelleigence of 10.

and the griffon charging ino the fray instead of saving his 'master' that's your fault really you should say 'your companion would rather take you o safety than charge in, he jut saw you drp he has no idea whtehre you are alive or not and the first thing they would do is take you to safety

[Fenryr]

From the core rulebook p.97:

Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready
to defend you if no threat is present), even without any
command being given. Alternatively, you can command
the animal to defend another specific character.

To elaborate on this, Paladin was below 0 HP and far away from enemies. And the Griffon CHARGED into the fray against other enemies. Dunno, but that doesn't seem to defend the Paladin.

To the previous posts, thank you. I still want more opinions.

[eggynack]

When a PC has leadership, the follower should follow the orders of the PC, but it should be played by the DM. The same is true here.
I wouldn't say should here. I'd prefer to go with can. Yes, the follower being treated as an NPC is a perfectly reasonable way to go about things, but if it would be more convenient for the PC to run it, or if they just want to have two characters (and the DM's OK with that), or if whatever, then the double PC way is also perfectly reasonable. Basically, I'm saying that if the OP doesn't want the player to run two characters, then the NPC solution is a solid one. If the OP turns out to be cool with it, after the animal intelligence thing is resolved, then he should feel free to accede to the players wishes in this area.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If there were still additional enemies posing a threat to the paladin, then the griffon would want to neutralize that threat. If you get too close to a bear cub, even if you immediately move away, mama bear will perceive you as a threat and tear you a new one, even if there's now some distance between you and that cub. They don't need to be close to the unconscious paladin or posing an immediate threat to him for the griffon's response to be neutralizing the threat, as long as he didn't leave the paladin alone with one or more opponents to go fight someone further away.

[Fenryr]

If there were still additional enemies posing a threat to the paladin, then the griffon would want to neutralize that threat. If you get too close to a bear cub, even if you immediately move away, mama bear will perceive you as a threat and tear you a new one, even if there's now some distance between you and that cub. They don't need to be close to the unconscious paladin or posing an immediate threat to him for the griffon's response to be neutralizing the threat, as long as he didn't leave the paladin alone with one or more opponents to go fight someone further away.

With the Paladin still in the military saddle (there's a 75% an unconscious doesn't fall from the saddle) I believe it's not a good idea. Yeh, my bad here. Didn't give proper information. But your example is good if somehow the Paladin is lying on the ground or being carried by someone else. I am ok with your example.

[Coidzor]

Int 10 Magical Beast is definitely a sophont, even if it is using Animal Companion rules.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You might want to check out this page
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/companions.html
As it deals with companions/control and actions.

For a Griffon its intelligence makes it a "Sentient Companions" so it would likely fallback to protect the paladin. If the paladin isn't in danger of bleeding to death it might retreat from combat entirely abandoning the rest of the party.

[Coidzor]

You might want to check out this page
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/companions.html
As it deals with companions/control and actions.

For a Griffon its intelligence makes it a "Sentient Companions" so it would likely fallback to protect the paladin. If the paladin isn't in danger of bleeding to death it might retreat from combat entirely abandoning the rest of the party.

Yeah, abandon the people who can heal the Paladin out of unconsciousness while they're in a fight with the group that dropped the Paladin. That makes... sense as a general rule of thumb rather than requiring a specific set of circumstances even on top of the Pally getting dropped.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yeah, abandon the people who can heal the Paladin out of unconsciousness while they're in a fight with the group that dropped the Paladin. That makes... sense as a general rule of thumb rather than requiring a specific set of circumstances even on top of the Pally getting dropped.
I'm sorry did I say would or did I use the word "might"?
The griffon does not have the same loyalty with the group as it does with the paladin, so it might choose to take the paladin to safety. (presuming he isn't bleeding to death). Rather then stay and fight with the the of the group. Whose to say anyone in the group is capable of healing the paladin. A companion whose loyalty is to a specific character rather then a group of people would likely pick that character at the expense of the others.

[Fenryr]

You might want to check out this page
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/companions.html
As it deals with companions/control and actions.

For a Griffon its intelligence makes it a "Sentient Companions" so it would likely fallback to protect the paladin. If the paladin isn't in danger of bleeding to death it might retreat from combat entirely abandoning the rest of the party.

Ooooooh, interesting read. Thanks a lot.

I think I got enough opinions. It's a 2nd PC for the same player (due the 10 Int) and I will make him read this link you gave me.

Thanks a loot, peeps.

[Shining Wrath]

And how does the Paladin treat his Griffin? If he's doing the standard Paladin LG routine, probably pretty well.

Because that Griffin, with INT=10, ought to act like a longtime servant of the family. If the Paladin is truly LG, it is not implausible that the Griffin will protect the Paladin as, say, Samwise Gamgee protected Frodo. You might ask Shelob how that works in practice.

If the Paladin is haughty, treats the Griffin like a dumb animal, risks the Griffin while he remains safe, and other plausible "I'm better than you" not-so-good stuff, the Griffin might have second thoughts about this whole protection routine, and now you have Doby and Lucius Malfoy.