Reach Weapons: Yes? No? Why?

[TechnOkami]

So, I know what a reach weapon does. It allows you to poke someone without being next to their square. But on their turn if they're going to just run past your reach and stab you anyways, is there any real reason to have one besides doing some kind of reach + trip + Thicket of Blades combination so you trip them before they get to you and just keep smacking them and moving back, rinse wash repeat?

[Knaight]

It also lets you hide behind people with non-reach weapons. Then there's the Stand Still feat, which is pretty decent on its own. It's also really good for not getting AoOs when attacking larger enemies.

[eggynack]

If your opponent runs up to you, and you have a reach weapon (which is greater than their reach), then you get a free attack. If they run up and you don't have a reach weapon, then you don't get a free attack. If you run up to an opponent, and their reach exceeds yours, then they get a free attack. Free attacks are awesome, so reach weapons are awesome. That's assuming a featless warrior too. If you pop on combat reflexes, then that's multiple separate attacks, if you toss on improved trip then that's also the ability to shut down movement, and just in general, the ability to hit a broader range of squares is better. You get a lot of benefit for a pretty low cost, tending towards something like the loss of two damage.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Firstly, it is very easy to also threaten adjacent (spiked chain; armor spikes, spiked gauntlet, imp. unarmed strike...), so not being able to fight back once they get "inside" isn't that much an issue, plus 5 ft stepping back usually works.

Also, you're assuming a duel. In a duel it makes less difference, though if they go first (or you do but you delay/ready) it *is* essentially a free attack, and ensures you get the first strike. Now, in a duel, you can actually be tricky and ready to "5 ft step away then strike" on the condition of "he is about to attack me" which results in the foe moving up to you (and taking an AoO to the face) and stopping (whether by charge or normal move), then as he's about to attack, you step to the side out of his reach, strike him, then you get your next turn before he gets his (it's how readying works w/ initiative) and can full attack him then 5 ft step back even more, getting another AoO and robbing him of a full attack on you.

So there are tricks. Or, you could use your AoO from his movement to just plain trip him or stand still, and rob him of his turn anyway.


But...the main thing that makes reach weapons good is for non-duel situations. Martials by default are ok one-on-one vs. most monsters/NPCs. Even if they can't win, they can "hang" for a few rounds, which is enough for the entire party to beat it. But....martials typically are not that good at dealing with many foes. They just don't get enough attacks, nor threaten enough space to reasonably expect to strike too many foes even if they do have 10 attacks.
Enter reach weapons. Now you can attack double the radius, and the AoOs really start to pile up into lots of extra attacks each round. Which you can use to trip or Stand Still on the foes to lock them down and keep them from being able to melee anyone or prevent mages/archers from escaping you. It really makes a big difference.

And the more reach you can get, the better it gets. Even simple level 1 enlarge person + a reach weapon means you occupy a 10 ft square and threaten 20 ft around that. That's more coverage than a fireball spell. And you can get even more reach if you try a little.

[Troacctid]

You can threaten more squares (and therefore make more attacks of opportunity). Enemies approaching you have to take an attack of opportunity if they don't also have reach, and conversely, you don't have to take an attack of opportunity when approaching an enemy that has reach. You need less movement to get in range of your target (if you don't start your turn next to them) and have more options for taking advantage of terrain. Your reach extends vertically, so you can hit enemies in the air or on top of a cliff where you wouldn't otherwise be able to move closer to them. You can attack from behind an ally, or attack an enemy who's hiding behind one of their allies.

[RhoTheWanderer]

I have to second Knaight on the whole thing of hiding behind people with non-reach melee weapons. I'm playing as a half-ogre (from Races of Destiny) equipped with a spiked chain in one campaign lately. In the same game we have a wizard that came up with a spell that allows him to mage-melee like no other all day long. I stand behind him and we tag-team lockdown-crackdown everything.

[...]threaten 20 ft around that.
I would be eternally grateful if you could cite a source and page number that explains that bit. Sadly, my group is under the impression that a large creature equipped with a spiked chain would threaten out to only 15ft. (Their reasoning: Normal reach of medium creature=5ft. Normal reach doubled due to large size=10ft. Spiked chain extends normal reach by 5ft resulting in a total reach of 10ft normally. Therefore, reach of large creature with a spiked chain is 15ft [5{base}X2{for large size}=10+5{amount that the weapon extends your reach beyond normal}=15]. [Basically, they believe that while your "base" reach increases when you are larger than medium, the amount added on to your reach by a reach weapon does not.] I'd swear I read somewhere that it's supposed to be 20ft, but for the life of me, I can't remember where precisely I read it in the rulebooks. :smallsigh:

[StreamOfTheSky]

I would be eternally grateful if you could cite a source and page number that explains that bit. Sadly, my group is under the impression that a large creature equipped with a spiked chain would threaten out to only 15ft. (Their reasoning: Normal reach of medium creature=5ft. Normal reach doubled due to large size=10ft. Spiked chain extends normal reach by 5ft resulting in a total reach of 10ft normally. Therefore, reach of large creature with a spiked chain is 15ft [5{base}X2{for large size}=10+5{amount that the weapon extends your reach beyond normal}=15]. I'd swear I read somewhere that it's supposed to be 20ft, but for the life of me, I can't remember where precisely I read it in the rulebooks. :smallsigh:

Sure. You can find the pages if you want, I'm just going to quote from the SRD.


A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a [B]natural reach of 10 feet.


Reach Weapons

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

It's pretty not-debateable, they even give an example that outright answers the question you had.

Now, in 3.0, reach weapons added +5 ft to your natural reach (and you couldn't strike 5 ft around you), no matter what that natural reach was. 3.5 changed it so that it flat out DOUBLES your natural reach (and you can't strike within your natural reach). They might be thinking of the 3.0 rule, or you're playing a 3.0 game in which case they are correct. Personally, I think 3.0's rule was better and more balanced, but...I'm not complaining. :smallsmile:

[NecessaryWeevil]

The key phrase in the above is probably "of the appropriate size"; is your group forgetting that if you enlarge a character to Large, their weapon also becomes Large (and therefore has more reach than its Medium version)?

[Gavinfoxx]

The key phrase in the above is probably "of the appropriate size"; is your group forgetting that if you enlarge a character to Large, their weapon also becomes Large (and therefore has more reach than its Medium version)?

Weapon size has nothing to do with reach, only the reach category of weapon.

[Curmudgeon]

Weapon size has nothing to do with reach, only the reach category of weapon.
That's normally right, but there's an additional wrinkle: weapon size can deny you reach. From page 151 of Rules Compendium:
A wielder gains no reach from a reach weapon that is too small. No additional reach is granted by a reach weapon that is too big. If you're boosted to Large size and then temporarily disarmed of your Large reach weapon, you don't get that doubled reach any more when you pick your Medium weapon up off the ground.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. ... Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size.

[TechnOkami]

@ everyone: thank you for the responses. I now understand how much cooler it is to be swinging around a Guisarm or a Talenta Sharrash (frikkin' love that scythe, unerrata'd anyways).

And now a new question. According to what I read about reach weapons + physical body size, am I correct in understanding that a Goliath Barbarian with Mountain Rage (increases in size from Medium to Large) with a 10 ft Reach Weapon can strike a creature that is 15-20 feet away?

Also, as a somewhat off-topic question: what is the benefit of being Large size vs Medium size with the Powerful Build? I know you get the increased reach, but is there anything else?

[Curmudgeon]

And now a new question. According to what I read about reach weapons + physical body size, am I correct in understanding that a Goliath Barbarian with Mountain Rage (increases in size from Medium to Large) with a 10 ft Reach Weapon can strike a creature that is 15-20 feet away?
Sorry, but no; Mountain Rage screws over the Barbarian here.
(Although his size category increases by one step, the goliath barbarian’s height only increases by a foot or so and his mass only increases by about 30–40%, so his equipment still fits normally.) That explicit proviso of Mountain Rage means the Barbarian's reach weapon is still Medium size, and thus ceases to give him any reach because it's now too small. :smallannoyed:

[TechnOkami]

Sorry, but no; Mountain Rage screws over the Barbarian here. That explicit proviso of Mountain Rage means the Barbarian's reach weapon is still Medium size, and thus ceases to give him any reach because it's now too small. :smallannoyed:

Man that's dumb. Oh well, just means half-giant is best giant after all.

[torrasque666]

Sorry, but no; Mountain Rage screws over the Barbarian here. That explicit proviso of Mountain Rage means the Barbarian's reach weapon is still Medium size, and thus ceases to give him any reach because it's now too small. :smallannoyed:

Remember though that a Goliath can wield a Large Reach weapon due to Powerful build. So if his size goes up, he's still wielding a Large Reach weapon. Honestly, why the hell is a Goliath wielding a Medium sized weapon in the first place?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Disarm in general will screw you over if enlarged. Reach takes the worst hit, but any weapon dropping in size will incur penalties to you.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

The penalty isn't just for weapons that are too big, notice. If you plan to enlarge person a lot and your DM is savvy of this rule and thus seeks to use it against you often, you really want a locked gauntlet or the sizing property from MIC, which is dirt cheap (flat 2000 gp, iirc) and only a swift action to use.


Honestly, why the hell is a Goliath wielding a Medium sized weapon in the first place?

He wouldn't be, so it's not an actual issue.

EDIT: All this talk of disarm reminded me of another reason reach weapons rock: performing combat maneuvers "untrained" from a safe distance so they can't AoO you for it. Reach tripping is awesome, but when they decide to stand up, you can't trip them again. But doing damage is so boring! What's a martial to do? Disarm the sucker! Thanks to him being prone, you get either a +4 or +8 (by RAW, he has a penalty to AC and attack rolls, but I've seen many DMs treat the AC penalty as an attack bonus to the attacker) effective edge on the opposed roll. Once his weapon's down, he's left with a standard and no weapon. :smallsmile: Of course, if he goes to pick it up, you trip him again. :smallbiggrin:
But I would never waste a feat on Improved Disarm, it's too situational (from the PC's perspective; lots of "unarmed" monsters; for a DM's NPCs it's the best feat evar). I just avoid provoking the AoO in the first place by doing it from outside the foe' reach.

[bjoern]

Reach. Always a yes.

It is always a useful tool to have even if not optimized for.

Say you're a charger brute with some huge heavy thing. If your guy possess a whip (range 15') he can trip and disarm 15' away (which could be useful in the right situation)

If that same guy doesn't have the whip, he can't do those things. And all he has to show for not having the whip is a whole 1gp extra in his wallet. (YIPPEE)

obviously if optimized for reach is amazing.
But even without, its still a good versatility mechanic for anyone martial type even if just for certain situations.

[TechnOkami]

Also, you're assuming a duel. In a duel it makes less difference, though if they go first (or you do but you delay/ready) it *is* essentially a free attack, and ensures you get the first strike. Now, in a duel, you can actually be tricky and ready to "5 ft step away then strike" on the condition of "he is about to attack me" which results in the foe moving up to you (and taking an AoO to the face) and stopping (whether by charge or normal move), then as he's about to attack, you step to the side out of his reach, strike him, then you get your next turn before he gets his (it's how readying works w/ initiative) and can full attack him then 5 ft step back even more, getting another AoO and robbing him of a full attack on you.

So there are tricks. Or, you could use your AoO from his movement to just plain trip him or stand still, and rob him of his turn anyway.
I need to remember this.

All this talk of disarm reminded me of another reason reach weapons rock: performing combat maneuvers "untrained" from a safe distance so they can't AoO you for it. Reach tripping is awesome, but when they decide to stand up, you can't trip them again. But doing damage is so boring! What's a martial to do? Disarm the sucker! Thanks to him being prone, you get either a +4 or +8 (by RAW, he has a penalty to AC and attack rolls, but I've seen many DMs treat the AC penalty as an attack bonus to the attacker) effective edge on the opposed roll. Once his weapon's down, he's left with a standard and no weapon. :smallsmile: Of course, if he goes to pick it up, you trip him again. :smallbiggrin:
But I would never waste a feat on Improved Disarm, it's too situational (from the PC's perspective; lots of "unarmed" monsters; for a DM's NPCs it's the best feat evar). I just avoid provoking the AoO in the first place by doing it from outside the foe' reach.
I need to remember this as well. The best part is I can do both with the same character, because reach weapons op. :D

[Slithery D]

For those of you playing Pathfinder reach builds, please note the new Advanced Class Guide published the Fortuitous weapon enhancement.


This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A fortuitous weapon grants the wielder more attacks of opportunity. Once per round, when the wielder of a fortuitous weapon hits with an attack of opportunity, he can make a second attack of opportunity with his weapon at a -5 penalty.

Price is a +1 bonus.

[The Insanity]

Firstly, it is very easy to also threaten adjacent (spiked chain; armor spikes, spiked gauntlet, imp. unarmed strike...)
There's also the Short Haft feat, or simply eating the improvised weapon penalty.

[AMFV]

Well Reach Weapons are often worth it, but not always worth it and a feat. So it really depends on which weapons you're talking about whether the reach weapons would be worth it. For a tripping AoO fighter, absolutely, every time. For a charger? Maybe, maybe not, depending on build.

[Vogonjeltz]

It also lets you hide behind people with non-reach weapons. Then there's the Stand Still feat, which is pretty decent on its own. It's also really good for not getting AoOs when attacking larger enemies.

Stand still is pretty great with reach weapons and combat reflexes. Then you can engage in full attacks, 5 foot step away and they can't reach you without provoking again.

[eggynack]

Well Reach Weapons are often worth it, but not always worth it and a feat. So it really depends on which weapons you're talking about whether the reach weapons would be worth it. For a tripping AoO fighter, absolutely, every time. For a charger? Maybe, maybe not, depending on build.
As I've noted, I think the cost is generally low enough that reach weapons are almost always going to be justified, even when using a charger. After all, the initial free attack setup I pointed out remains perfectly intact on a charger, with or without combat reflexes, and you certainly don't want to be on the receiving end of an AoO lockdown build if you don't have to be.

[AMFV]

As I've noted, I think the cost is generally low enough that reach weapons are almost always going to be justified, even when using a charger. After all, the initial free attack setup I pointed out remains perfectly intact on a charger, with or without combat reflexes, and you certainly don't want to be on the receiving end of an AoO lockdown build if you don't have to be.

True, but it may not depending on a lot of other factors. Like which weapons you happen to have found. It's not worth a feat certainly for a feat starved Ubercharger, and if they're dungeoncrashing then they need to cross those squares anyway, so it's less useful, although definitely viable. I was only saying that it might not be worth dumping resources into for whatever reason. An Ubercharger who finds an +5 equivalent weapon isn't probably going to want to use a +2 weapon because it's a reach weapon, whereas a lock-down build would be willing to make that sacrifice in most cases.

So I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I'm just stating that it has less value for an ubercharger.

[Aliek]

I wouldn't say ubercharges are that feat starved tough. With just the 4 feats for leap attack+shock trooper you can pretty much instagib anything.

The classic "Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Full BAB 2" pre-prc build(Usually warblade) can be both without much trouble by lv6, and that's without flaws!

[eggynack]

True, but it may not depending on a lot of other factors. Like which weapons you happen to have found. It's not worth a feat certainly for a feat starved Ubercharger, and if they're dungeoncrashing then they need to cross those squares anyway, so it's less useful, although definitely viable. I was only saying that it might not be worth dumping resources into for whatever reason. An Ubercharger who finds an +5 equivalent weapon isn't probably going to want to use a +2 weapon because it's a reach weapon, whereas a lock-down build would be willing to make that sacrifice in most cases.
I guess this position makes more sense if you're relying on found weapons, but if you have the choice of buying either a guisarme or a greatsword, then I'm saying that you should just about always go for the guisarme.

[AMFV]

I wouldn't say ubercharges are that feat starved tough. With just the 4 feats for leap attack+shock trooper you can pretty much instagib anything.

The classic "Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Full BAB 2" pre-prc build(Usually warblade) can be both without much trouble by lv6, and that's without flaws!

Even still, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is unlikely to be something you're going to jump at. I mean it might be, but it seems not so worthwhile. As far as standard reach weapons go, they're alright, but if you're dungeoncrashing, then you'd need something different. At least for me all of my Uberchargers have been feat starved, but mostly because I build them around oddball concepts.


I guess this position makes more sense if you're relying on found weapons, but if you have the choice of buying either a guisarme or a greatsword, then I'm saying that you should just about always go for the guisarme.

Well then you have to pay the cost to enchant two weapons (Armor Spikes and the Guisarme) so basically you're creating the same dilemma. Where you're not as likely to have as powerful a weapon, and it might not be worth it.

[PsyBomb]

Well then you have to pay the cost to enchant two weapons (Armor Spikes and the Guisarme) so basically you're creating the same dilemma. Where you're not as likely to have as powerful a weapon, and it might not be worth it.

+1 Metalline is all you need on the armor spikes, its purpose is only as a backup when your main weapon can't strike, and to enable AoOs in the area.

[AMFV]

+1 Metalline is all you need on the armor spikes is plenty, its purpose is only as a backup when your main weapon can't strike, and to enable AoOs in the area.

Depending of course. And it's still an added cost. I'm not saying that in all scenarios it's not worth it. Just saying that in 3.5 there are a lot of valuable weapon tactics that don't involve Armor Spikes and A Guisarme. Also that particular strategy suffers a lot against things that like to grapple or swallow hole, at which point you'll probably wish you had a better backup weapon.

[The Insanity]

Well then you have to pay the cost to enchant two weapons (Armor Spikes and the Guisarme) so basically you're creating the same dilemma. Where you're not as likely to have as powerful a weapon, and it might not be worth it.
You're not TWFing tho. It's just a backup.

[AMFV]

You're not TWFing tho. It's just a backup.

And it's a backup that might be very very necessary at some points. For example if you're bullrushing somebody into things you might as well not waste any resources on the reach weapon and just get a standard one, since that's going to save you whatever you'd have spent on the armor spikes. You can't use it with Overrun, which might come up for that sort of fighter. Basically now you're limiting your Battle Field Control options, which aren't that many for a fighter, but you're limiting them if you're using a reach weapon as a charging fighter. Which isn't even always that bad, but it's worth noting that it is a cost.

[Coidzor]

Armor Spikes are another way to put on things like Warning(MIC, IIRC) or Smoking(Lords of Darkness), where all you need is the +1 and the single property, too, so there's that in their favor as well if they're not having to try to play catch-up to the primary weapon.

Of course, depending upon the DM, then one could do the same thing with two different +1 Spiked Gauntlets, say, have one be +1 Warning and the other +1 Eager(MIC) and that gives you a +7 to Init while the armor spikes can be +1 Smoking for concealment and nausea for anything trying to enter your space.

And I'm sure there's something that can be done with lesser and least weapon augment crystals there, too.


For those of you playing Pathfinder reach builds, please note the new Advanced Class Guide published the Fortuitous weapon enhancement.



Price is a +1 bonus.

Hmm. Definitely worth it if that second AoO doesn't eat up one's store of AoOs. Possibly worth it even if it does eat up one's store of AoOs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And it's a backup that might be very very necessary at some points. For example if you're bullrushing somebody into things you might as well not waste any resources on the reach weapon and just get a standard one, since that's going to save you whatever you'd have spent on the armor spikes. You can't use it with Overrun, which might come up for that sort of fighter. Basically now you're limiting your Battle Field Control options, which aren't that many for a fighter, but you're limiting them if you're using a reach weapon as a charging fighter. Which isn't even always that bad, but it's worth noting that it is a cost.

Neither bull rush nor overrun are influenced by your weapon having reach unless i'm missing something.

If you're worried about grapples/swallow whole you want a light backup weapon regardless. A charger, dungeoncrasher, etc. will want to use a two-handed weapon as his main weapon for PA and the +4 to most of his maneuvers. A reach weapon is at no disadvantage here compared to a greatsword.

There's always the Duom (DComp). Martial, reach, threatens adjacent. The only drawback is that you take a -2 to attacks against a second adjacent opponent you attack in the same round.
It's also not a trip weapon so if you want to trip with reach you're going to have to get a guisarme or spiked chain. But that's not a drawback compared to a non-reach weapon.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hmm. Definitely worth it if that second AoO doesn't eat up one's store of AoOs. Possibly worth it even if it does eat up one's store of AoOs.

If your game is including PF material, I'd be wary of making a reach weapon user. They nerfed all the "reach and adjacent" weapons to be reach only (spiked chain is plainly worse than all martial reach weapons now, true story). Then they created a feat that only requires BAB +1 called Step Up, to get a bonus 5 ft step to follow someone who uses it to get away from you. It was intended, I'm sure, to thwart casters. But concentration is still a thing, meanwhile there's no skill check in the world to use a reach weapon adjacent (and before you say "tumble" -- a) that's suicide in PF and b) you're being robbed of full attacks even if it always succeeds).
Plus PF nerfed all sorts of other martial stuff, like Stand Still (only works on adjacent foes, and it's a combat maneuver check now).

What I'm saying is....while that one thing from PF may look real nice.... Be careful what horrors you may unwittingly unleash by showing PF material to your DM.

[AMFV]

Neither bull rush nor overrun are influenced by your weapon having reach unless i'm missing something.

If you're worried about grapples/swallow whole you want a light backup weapon regardless. A charger, dungeoncrasher, etc. will want to use a two-handed weapon as his main weapon for PA and the +4 to most of his maneuvers. A reach weapon is at no disadvantage here compared to a greatsword.

There's always the Duom (DComp). Martial, reach, threatens adjacent. The only drawback is that you take a -2 to attacks against a second adjacent opponent you attack in the same round.
It's also not a trip weapon so if you want to trip with reach you're going to have to get a guisarme or spiked chain. But that's not a drawback compared to a non-reach weapon.

Well it's not so much that it influences the weapon, it's that you have to cross through their square anyways, so the weapon having reach becomes less advantageous, it becomes a moot point. I guess you could probably argue that it's no net disadvantage, except for the fact that you have to buy the Armor Spikes, which is a minor disadvantage. So there is a cost, and it may be worth it. I'm not sure it always is. For a Dungeoncrasher, I would say that 4-6k gold you'd use to buy the Armor Spikes, would be better spent elsewhere, since you're already going to be crossing into threatened squares to bull rush, meaning that the avantage is not so great.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well it's not so much that it influences the weapon, it's that you have to cross through their square anyways, so the weapon having reach becomes less advantageous, it becomes a moot point. I guess you could probably argue that it's no net disadvantage, except for the fact that you have to buy the Armor Spikes, which is a minor disadvantage. So there is a cost, and it may be worth it. I'm not sure it always is. For a Dungeoncrasher, I would say that 4-6k gold you'd use to buy the Armor Spikes, would be better spent elsewhere, since you're already going to be crossing into threatened squares to bull rush, meaning that the avantage is not so great.

You're going to buy the armor spikes anyway for passive enhancements like Warning. And even if a Dungeoncrasher doesn't get Knockback and/or a Brutal Surge weapon he can still benefit from the increased reach on his AoO's.

I just can't see an advantage from taking a non-reach 2h weapon over a reach weapon. Worst case i can see you have to use your 5ft step sometimes to get the distance to attack, if you're using a Guisarme over a Duom. The Duom doesn't really have any drawbacks compared to a Greataxe except the lower damage die.