Incorporeal Creatures vs. The Bag of Holding

[No brains]

In the Simple RAW Q&A Thread part 28, one person brought up a very good question:


Q 27 Incorporeal creatures ignore solid objects, terrain, and a great many physical effects. How many medium sized incorporeal undead can I cram into a Type 1 Bag of Holding?

This deceptively brief question demands a long answer that toys with the abstract concepts of masslessness and extra-dimensional space. Let's break it down into parts to just answer each bit as best as we can.

In 30 cubic feet there is not enough room for even one medium creature to fight effectively. Let's address this first because different medium creatures can compact and contort into different volumes. The minimum 5x5x5 cube demands 125 cubic feet.* This means that technically there is not room for even one medium creature until a type III Bag of Holding can be acquired.

Sticking to combat based space, there are rules for squeezing that allow one to fit into a space half as wide as one normally could. This reduces one dimension to 2.5 feet giving us a volume of 62.5 feet. Now we can fit a creature into a type II bag. Closer, but still not good enough. Fighting space will have to be given up for now.

The Escape Artist skill has answers, but with an annoyingly vague gulf in the realm of what is possible. A DC 30 check can be made for 'getting through a space where your head fits but your shoulders don’t'. This again falls to individual creatures, but a DC 80 check can be made that allows a medium creature to pass through an opening two inches square. This dramatically cuts down the space needed in two dimensions. Now multiple creatures can be stored as 2-inch-by-2-inch-by-5-foot rods in a bag of holding. 36 medium creatures can fit into 5 cubic feet of space.* We can fit 216 creatures into a 5x6x1 type I bag. Technically, both squeezing and escape artist could be combined to trim each creature down to 2inx2inx2.5ft units.

If such a colossal cheat with common sense be made, then why not just open the floodgates and bring in grapple rules that could theoretically allow infinite medium creatures to all fit into one medium creature's space? The reason is because incorporeal creatures cannot grapple or be grappled. At this phase, it seems as though creatures with mass can fit into a smaller space than creatures without mass.

Moving away from the math and written rules, how can we be sure that multiple incorporeal creatures cannot occupy the same point in space? Without clear guidance from the rules on this topic, infinite incorporeal creatures could all fit into one space, even when reduced by Escape Artist. Even then, there exists the possibility that an incorporeal creature's mass does not even count against itself and the creature could contort and fold in upon itself until a singularity. Not only could infinite incorporeal creatures fit into a bag of holding, but infinite infinities of them could.

But wait! There's more! Now we can talk about what we are putting non-mass into, a bag within another universe. How exactly does the ability to move through solid matter interact with solid mater being a barrier to an infinite extra-dimensional space? When a bag of holding is punctured from the inside, its contents 'fall' into an infinity beyond the bag. Can incorporeal creatures pass beyond the regular bag into this space? If so, then even without crazy compacting cheese, infinite incorporeal creatures could 'fit into' a bag of holding by entering the mouth and then flying into the void beyond. So long as they have some way to navigate to it, endless ghosts can come or go though the opening as they please. What if they don't have any need to actually use the opening, and they could just opt to move along an axis beyond the third dimension and pop out of the sides of the bag from anywhere within? The laws of time and space as humans understand them are not compatible with the ideas of extra-dimensional space and the ability to take up no space at all.

So as a scared DM, incorporeals count as x-spaces themselves and implode any bags, holes, or tricks they touch. Probe-elm salved. :smalltongue:

Does anyone have any craziness to add? How about logic/ RAW I missed? Or maybe just yell at me for being stupid in general? Let me know!

*If my math is wrong, then I've earned my name again. :( If nothing else, this thought experiment can help me learn some maths.

[Krobar]

This came up a few years ago in my game, only it was Shadows specifically I was asked about.

I went with a much simpler answer - as many as you can command to get in there and stay in there.

[ace rooster]

I'm not even going to try to make the calculation for volume of characters, as there are not even rules for how large a typical medium ghost is. A few things for consideration.

First thing to point out is that escape artist does not work like that. Being able to get through a gap does not mean that escape artist permits them to reside in the gap. Think of it like quantum tunneling, with the character being on one side of the gap before the check, and then the other after the check. At no point are they actually in the gap.

Secondly, incorporial creatures are explicitly able to be harmed by other incorporial creatures. As far as I am aware this is the only guidence we have, but is a pretty strong suggestion that they cannot occupy the same space.

As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping fractal grapples working RAW, but there is the limit per person. That might be a starting point.

Finally, there is nothing on the other side of a bag of holding wall. Not empty space; no space. Piercing the bag causes it to fail, and everything in it is lost, but that failure is not anything so mundane as everything falling through the hole. I think of it as the walls of the bag supporting the edges of the space, and if they are damaged then the space itself becomes unstable.

hope this helps.

[No brains]

This came up a few years ago in my game, only it was Shadows specifically I was asked about.

I went with a much simpler answer - as many as you can command to get in there and stay in there.
Now that is a simple an elegant solution.:smallsmile: Where's the fun in that!?:smallbiggrin:

I'm not even going to try to make the calculation for volume of characters, as there are not even rules for how large a typical medium ghost is. A few things for consideration.

First thing to point out is that escape artist does not work like that. Being able to get through a gap does not mean that escape artist permits them to reside in the gap. Think of it like quantum tunneling, with the character being on one side of the gap before the check, and then the other after the check. At no point are they actually in the gap.

Secondly, incorporial creatures are explicitly able to be harmed by other incorporial creatures. As far as I am aware this is the only guidence we have, but is a pretty strong suggestion that they cannot occupy the same space.

As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping fractal grapples working RAW, but there is the limit per person. That might be a starting point.

Finally, there is nothing on the other side of a bag of holding wall. Not empty space; no space. Piercing the bag causes it to fail, and everything in it is lost, but that failure is not anything so mundane as everything falling through the hole. I think of it as the walls of the bag supporting the edges of the space, and if they are damaged then the space itself becomes unstable.

hope this helps.

Multiple checks can be needed for a creature to get through a space like a chimney. The creature can even take twenty, implying a long and arduous effort, up until something begins to threaten them. A trap could even be installed that could reduce a squirming creature's dexterity to trap it in there, or two creatures could ambush it from both sides. I can't agree that Escape Artist works like quantum tunneling, especially because I have trouble with middle-school arithmetic, but the claustrophobic terror is too ripe for me to pass up as a DM. If I were trying to be silly instead of scary, then I might rule that any stress like an encounter causes a creature to instantly eject from several minutes worth of worming, but an 8-foot tall and 4 foot wide cylinder of a bugbear fitting neatly into a 5-foot cube is already a goofy enough abstraction.

The entry on the incorporeal subtype has language that can at least seem to be contradictory. Even though they can be harmed by other incorporeal creatures, they are still immune to all non-magical attacks and cannot move or be made to move by any kind of physical contact. Then again, incorporeal creatures are not physical, are they? Because of the miss chance associated with magic weapons, it could be assumed that even a perfectly guided attack could still fail to hurt the ghost for some reason apart from the weapon occupying the space that it's target's body should. Additionally, the entries for both ghost touch armor and weapons are intentionally contradictory. Two ghosts wearing ghost touch armor may not be able to pass through each other, but the armors could pass through each other if the ghosts wanted them.

Fractal grappling only breaks down when the DM says it is too far away from the normal reality set by RAW. If Ace is grappled by Bea, Cat, Dee, Ed, and Fin, then Bea can be grappled by Gil, Ham, Ian, Jan, and maybe Kay. Ace is not grappling Gil through Jan, and this could go on so long as no one point grapples more than five others.

You make a point here that is good as far as I can understand it to be. One thing that gets me here is if an incorporeal creature passing through the bag counts as 'piercing' it. Say an incorporeal snake were to slither in through one side of the bag laying flat an then come out the other. Would observers see a visual gestalt of the snake appearing to be shorter than it really is? At what angle would the snake bend if the bag were turned inside out while it were passing though it? Further, what about a ghost touch sword? Technically it could be used by a wielder who finds it beneficial for the sword to be incorporeal for entering the bag through any side, but not falling through it.

[Dalebert]

Secondly, incorporial creatures are explicitly able to be harmed by other incorporial creatures. As far as I am aware this is the only guidence we have, but is a pretty strong suggestion that they cannot occupy the same space.

This is what I was thinking. Incorporeal creatures take up space in their own sort of weird dimension. Presumably you could fit the same number of incorporeal creatures as corporeal ones of the same size. They would be able to fit in the same space as corporeal creatures and objects but would bump into each other and that would limit how many you could have.

[Sir Garanok]

I 'd say as much as corporeal,like they have volume in a different dimension than corporeal beings.

Though someone might ask how many corporeal and incorporeal creatures can fit into a bag of holding?

As a general advice i would leave heavy maths and logic out of the game,perhaps a very special mishap
would add some spice to it.

[ace rooster]

You make a point here that is good as far as I can understand it to be. One thing that gets me here is if an incorporeal creature passing through the bag counts as 'piercing' it. Say an incorporeal snake were to slither in through one side of the bag laying flat an then come out the other. Would observers see a visual gestalt of the snake appearing to be shorter than it really is? At what angle would the snake bend if the bag were turned inside out while it were passing though it? Further, what about a ghost touch sword? Technically it could be used by a wielder who finds it beneficial for the sword to be incorporeal for entering the bag through any side, but not falling through it.


If it does no damage then surely it does not pierce it. What happens if you go through the outside wall of a bag of holding (as opposed to using the entrance) is not ruled, presumably because they did not consider the possibility of getting into the bag without using the entrance and not damaging it. I would rule that the sword or the incorporeal creature ends up in the bag; Actually in the bag, rather than inside the extradimensional space associated with it. That is based on very little actual rules though, just on how I would have them function in my games. Other systems work fine too; tardis type mechanics for example, which do produce results like you suggest.

[Telok]

Let's recap the [Incorporeal] traits that are relevant to this discussion.

1: No physical body
2: Can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities
3: Immune to all nonmagical attack forms
4: When hit by spells, holy water, or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source
5: Exceptions to #4 are; positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons
6: An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior
7: An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
8: An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally
9: Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage
10: Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions
11: Incorporeal creatures have no weight

Obviously an incorporeal creature can pass through an object.
Can it pass through an object that has been animated? (spell: Animate Object)
Can it pass through an Animated object?
Can it pass through a creature? By RAW, no. Because RAW creatures are not RAW objects untill they are killed/destroyed.
But it cannot be grabbed, held, entangled, bull rushed, grappled, carried, pushed, pulled, bent, folded, tied, knotted, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Bags of Holding can contain creatures and objects, there is text for both of these in the Bag of Holding text. While incorporeal creatures have no weight or physical body they do dominate thier combat space relative to their size. What I mean is this: A medium creature uses a 5' x 5' x 5' space during combat and is hindered if they have less room than that. But combat involves movement and violent actions, it does not determine the actual space a person needs to simply stand still. A quick Google shows the average* volume of a human body at roughly 2.75ish (very roughly) cubic feet. So if you turn people into mush you can get almost 11 medium humanoids into 30 cubic feet. Alternately most people are almost 60 inches long, 18 inches wide, and 6 inches high (Google coffin/casket sizes), giving us about 3.75 cubic feet of volume.

*"Average" is a pain in the tuckus. Apparently people are "average" anywhere from 120 lbs. to 190 lbs. depending on gender and location. I used 175 based on a "healthy adventurer" guess.

I think if we assume about 4 cubic feet of volume per medium creature we can get four medium, humanoid shaped, incorporeal creatures into a Type 1 Bag of Holding.