[EPIC] Feat combo

[AtlasSniperman]

Hey folks, I came across an interesting feat in the Epic Level handbook:
Ignore Material Components
Epic Level Handbook
[Epic]
You need not use any material components in casting your spells.
Prerequisite
Eschew Materials
Benefit
You may cast your spells without any material components. This feat does not affect the need for a focus or divine focus.


From how I read it, if you combine this feat with "Fabricate" you gain the most powerful creation spell in the game. As Fabricate's material component is what you are Fabricating from. Am I reading into this incorrectly?

[Phelix-Mu]

Hey folks, I came across an interesting feat in the Epic Level handbook:
Ignore Material Components
Epic Level Handbook
[Epic]
You need not use any material components in casting your spells.
Prerequisite
Eschew Materials
Benefit
You may cast your spells without any material components. This feat does not affect the need for a focus or divine focus.


From how I read it, if you combine this feat with "Fabricate" you gain the most powerful creation spell in the game. As Fabricate's material component is what you are Fabricating from. Am I reading into this incorrectly?

Not quite sure on the RAW of it, but if you got this straight out of the ELH book, you should keep in mind that a fair portion of those feats were errata'd for 3.5. You should be able to find the errata'd version on the WotC site under their area for 3.5 updates to 3.0 stuff, and someone here will likely have a link somewhere to that page (I really need to start keeping track of such links myself, lol, sadly not that organized).

While we are at it, it's pretty easy to combo true creation and fabricate into a mythal and break any economy by just crafting diamonds or platinum bars out of nothing. I once tried to calculate how many diamonds could fit in 30 cubic feet of diamonds, lol.

[AtlasSniperman]

I have a revised version of the ELH. but for errata check; http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/pdf/w1XqbdxG

The errata does not change it, though thank you for bringing that point up.

And yes, I can see how that'd be dangerous, but anyone who does that would quickly be hunted down by the richest of the rich before they destroy the economy.

[Chronos]

It doesn't actually work. Strictly speaking, Fabricate requires twice the usual amount of raw materials, the normal amount as a target and then that same amount again as a material component. Ignore Material Components will eliminate the component, but won't eliminate the target, so it just gets you down to the normal amount of materials needed.

And if you're able to take epic feats or cast epic spells, then you already destroyed the economy about ten levels ago just by existing.

[AtlasSniperman]

It doesn't actually work. Strictly speaking, Fabricate requires twice the usual amount of raw materials, the normal amount as a target and then that same amount again as a material component. Ignore Material Components will eliminate the component, but won't eliminate the target, so it just gets you down to the normal amount of materials needed.

And if you're able to take epic feats or cast epic spells, then you already destroyed the economy about ten levels ago just by existing.

This creates a conundrum for me. Fabricate states(and I quote)

"You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Thus, you can fabricate a wooden bridge from a clump of tress, a rope from a patch of hemp, clothes from flax or wool, and so forth. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication."
"Material Component: The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created."

I read this as: you take item A and convert it into object A. wherein item A IS the material component for the spell.
if you need items A and B, and you convert item B into an object, then item A is worthless.
if you need items A and B, and you convert item A into an object, then item B is worthless.
The reasoning of having twice the lot of the material needed makes no sense in the exact wording of the spell.


And yes, I know a epic level character will have already broken the economy, har har, Only if you're really paying attention.
By the same merit a 6th level character aught be a god, because Pun-Pun exists.

[Pan151]

Well, if you ignore material components with fabricate, then your spell fizzles because you have no target. The material component is also the target of the spell, so you can't cast it without it.

[AtlasSniperman]

Well, if you ignore material components with fabricate, then your spell fizzles because you have no target. The material component is also the target of the spell, so you can't cast it without it.

"Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text"
"If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet."

The target is a volume, not "volume of material" just a volume.

[Red Fel]

Okay. Let's run down the list, to be sure.

Here is the SRD on Ignore Material Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents):
You may cast spells without any material components. This feat does not affect the need for a focus or divine focus.

Here is the official updates and errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). The document for the ELH makes no reference to Ignore Material Components, so it can be presumed that the content stands as-is.

Here is the SRD on Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm):
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.

Material Component
The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.

Based on this, then, the question is whether you could use Fabricate to create things ex nihilo. Here are my thoughts. Yes, because you can ignore the material component - which is the source material - and can thus create something as if you had used source material. No, because the material produced must be of the same type as the source material; if you ignore the source material, you have no source material type, and thus can't craft anything of the same type. Yes, because epic feats. No, because there are already spells that do this; see e.g. True Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm). No, because you have no target. The spell requires that you target up to 10 cu. ft./level, and as the language regarding casting time shows, that's not just limited to minerals. You can ignore the material component, but not the target.
I say that "no" wins.

[AtlasSniperman]

Okay. Let's run down the list, to be sure.

Here is the SRD on Ignore Material Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents):

Here is the official updates and errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). The document for the ELH makes no reference to Ignore Material Components, so it can be presumed that the content stands as-is.

Here is the SRD on Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm):

Based on this, then, the question is whether you could use Fabricate to create things ex nihilo. Here are my thoughts. Yes, because you can ignore the material component - which is the source material - and can thus create something as if you had used source material. No, because the material produced must be of the same type as the source material; if you ignore the source material, you have no source material type, and thus can't craft anything of the same type. Yes, because epic feats. No, because there are already spells that do this; see e.g. True Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm). No, because you have no target. The spell requires that you target up to 10 cu. ft./level, and as the language regarding casting time shows, that's not just limited to minerals. You can ignore the material component, but not the target.
I say that "no" wins.

Thank you for a strong, concise summation of arguements thusfar. However I still contest the "The spell requires that you target up to 10 cu. ft./level, and as the language regarding casting time shows, that's not just limited to minerals."
by RAI yes, I can see the reading of Target as "Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level of material;"
however the RAW is "Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level;" which simply indicates a volume. The indication of a volume says nothing about the requirement that the material component fill or utilise that volume. You could have a waterskin of water and make a thin sheet of ice with Fabricate, the waterskin does not need to be within the volume used to place the ice.

[Red Fel]

Thank you for a strong, concise summation of arguements thusfar. However I still contest the "The spell requires that you target up to 10 cu. ft./level, and as the language regarding casting time shows, that's not just limited to minerals."
by RAI yes, I can see the reading of Target as "Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level of material;"
however the RAW is "Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level;" which simply indicates a volume. The indication of a volume says nothing about the requirement that the material component fill or utilise that volume. You could have a waterskin of water and make a thin sheet of ice with Fabricate, the waterskin does not need to be within the volume used to place the ice.

Well, let's have another look at a very specific piece of language:
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.

If you use Ignore Material Components, you have no material component, we can all agree on that. However, the casting time is dependent upon the "material to be affected by the spell." If you have no material source, what exactly is the "material to be affected by the spell"?

[AtlasSniperman]

Well, let's have another look at a very specific piece of language:

If you use Ignore Material Components, you have no material component, we can all agree on that. However, the casting time is dependent upon the "material to be affected by the spell." If you have no material source, what exactly is the "material to be affected by the spell"?

Well in this case that would be the volume of material to be generated by the spell

[The Glyphstone]

As mentioned, there is strong precedent in either direction. My personal answer would be "maybe, but who cares? You're playing Epic, balance and logic packed their bags and eloped with a restraining order left behind long ago."

[Chronos]

The stuff that becomes the thing you're making can't also be the material component, because material components vanish when they're used. Or I suppose it could be, but it wouldn't be very useful, because then the thing you made vanishes. And so you need the raw materials twice over.

Yes, this is due to sloppy editing, but if you fix that, it doesn't help. The way the spell should have been written is without the material component, just the target material you're transmuting... in which case Ignore Material Components becomes irrelevant. Nor is this the only spell that mixes up its material component and target: Fire Seeds does it too. And Simulacrum (and its big brother Ice Assassin) doesn't have a target at all, but its material component really ought to be a target instead, which would curtail the most broken uses for that spell.

[Pan151]

The target is a volume, not "volume of material" just a volume.

Volume is not a thing in and of itself - it is a property of a material.

You target a certain volume of the material you're fabricating. If you have no target, you cannot cast a targeted spell. If you target a volume of something else, then you fabricate that material instead.

There's no other way.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah. I don't have the chapter open at the moment, but I don't recall nothing being a valid target. Empty space is not a thing; though I have also heard that you can always target a spell at an empty square (which may or may not be a thing, dunno).

[Pan151]

Yeah. I don't have the chapter open at the moment, but I don't recall nothing being a valid target. Empty space is not a thing; though I have also heard that you can always target a spell at an empty square (which may or may not be a thing, dunno).

You certainly can target an empty square with Fabricate. You better find something interesting to fabricate all those cubic feet of air into, though...

[Phelix-Mu]

I just want to go back in time and hit whoever wrote this stuff with a paper fan. I couldn't write this kind of dysfunction if I tried.

/rant

[AtlasSniperman]

even if you slapped me with a paper fan, I still would have posted this.

as for the whole "targetting air" thing; the idea is combining the feat and spell for creation ex nehilo. so the targetted air would be displaced by matter created. I know it's stupid, but I'm pretty sure everyone here has come to the conclusion that it won't work.

[Chronos]

I think phelix-mu is saying he wants to slap the original authors of the spell, not anyone in this thread.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think phelix-mu is saying he wants to slap the original authors of the spell, not anyone in this thread.

Oh my, yes, this. A million pardons. Certainly never would actually slap anyone for just posting online. It's more publishing rubbish under the guise of a quality-tested product that gets me (I am a genetically-encoded copy editor, so the feelings run deep).

Apologies, apologies.

[Starmage21]

Oh my, yes, this. A million pardons. Certainly never would actually slap anyone for just posting online. It's more publishing rubbish under the guise of a quality-tested product that gets me (I am a genetically-encoded copy editor, so the feelings run deep).

Apologies, apologies.

I just chalk it up to "its Epic, its supposed to break **** in ways above and beyond the ways adventurers ALREADY break ****".

Also, I'm in the camp of Ignore Material Components to create something from nothing using Fabricate as general "Meh". You basically just used an epic feat to cast True Creation out of a Fabricate spell slot. Grats! I'm more impresssed by the now unlimited number of True Resurrections your cleric can cast with no penalty whatsoever.

[Fax Celestis]

Thank you for a strong, concise summation of arguements thusfar. However I still contest the "The spell requires that you target up to 10 cu. ft./level, and as the language regarding casting time shows, that's not just limited to minerals."
by RAI yes, I can see the reading of Target as "Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level of material;"
however the RAW is "Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level;" which simply indicates a volume. The indication of a volume says nothing about the requirement that the material component fill or utilise that volume. You could have a waterskin of water and make a thin sheet of ice with Fabricate, the waterskin does not need to be within the volume used to place the ice.

What do you think "see text" in the target line means? You keep omitting it, but it's important here.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm kind of thinking of reworking/expanding the uses of Spell Stowaway. Inspired by this thread, how cool would it be if you could synergistically trigger spells, even for non-spellcasters. Would be an awesome feat for non-caster epic crafters; your friendly wizard casts wall of stone to conjure a crazy ton of raw materials, and the dwarven stonemason can trigger the effects of fabricate to turn the stone into whatever. Let's say the D&D equivalent of the Taj Mahal.

Not even close to RAW, but way more in keeping with the tenor of what epic is supposed to be. I've been playing Exalted for the past year almost, and it has really opened up my eyes to the virtues of increasing the amount of Rule of Cool present at epic levels.