Dwarven Arcane Gish

[keeper2161]

Ok so I want to make a dwarven arcane gish. One build I saw was Fighter(dwarf subset)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Geometer5/Earth Dreamer5. I don't mind this but I don't really like geometer. There doesn't seem like there is a lot of synergy with Runesmith and Geometer except with the Geometer level 2 feature Book of Geometry. I fell in love with the class Abjurant Champion when I made another gish build. I liked the flavor of Runesmith and Earth Dreamer. The character that used the above build was an architect and an artisan which is a interesting. Normally characters have very lofty goals but it seemed like this character just wanted to make things (whether they be buildings or items) and just gets roped into things, very Die Hard. So I was simply thinking of trading in Geometer with Abjurant Champion. So Fighter(dwarf subst)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Abjurant Champion5/Earth Dreamer5. I don't like making builds that the apex is past ten. In this case where this build gets to full working power is 15, everything after 15 is just gravy.

Also could someone explain Fighter(dwarf subset), I have never really dealt with much of subsets of really anything. Also Focused Transmuter I believe is just a wizard that specialized in Transmuting. Like the original build and it's character I would like to use more of earth and stone themed spells. I will also try role play as dwarf architect/artisan, again sticking to the original character, with Die Hard type attitude. Which will be easy because the campaign that my character will be in starts off in jail. The schools I will prohibit will be Necromancy and Evocation. Necromancy because my character won't like it and because for this build necromancy doesn't offer much. Evocation because other schools can replace it almost entirely.

With all this in mind what spells would you guys recommend and what spells would you recommend that I should try to keep prepared. Also what feats would you recommend. The only feat that I would need to take is earth sense. I also don't mind taking the two flaws at first level. Also anyway through combo of feats to make it so that I can spontaneously cast spells, not a big priority considering the Runesmith abilities which is a big reason why I like Runesmith.

This is the thread with the original build and character post by MirddinEmris http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284365-Advice-on-a-Runesmith-build

[Troacctid]

Also could someone explain Fighter(dwarf subset), I have never really dealt with much of subsets of really anything. Also Focused Transmuter I believe is just a wizard that specialized in Transmuting.

Dwarf Fighter is a substitution level from Races of Stone (p146). It increases the hit die to d12, adds Knowledge (Dungeoneering) to your class skills, and replaces the bonus feat with a version of Weapon Focus that applies to multiple types of axes.

Focused Specialist is an alternate class feature for specialist wizards from Complete Mage (p34). It gives you two additional specialist spell slots per spell level (on top of the normal extra slot), but you lose one general spell slot, and you have to ban an additional school. So at level 1, a generalist Wizard gets one 1st-level spell per day (not including bonus spells for high Int); a Transmuter gets two, but one of them has to be transmutation; and a Focused Transmuter gets three, but all three have to be transmutation.

[keeper2161]

I have been reading and some people say that if you want to be a focused specialist just be a sorcerer. Is that preferable for this build?

[Fax Celestis]

No. Dwarves get a penalty to sorcerer's casting stat, sorcerers get new spells a level later, and it's a lot harder to get or replace new spells as a sorcerer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have been reading and some people say that if you want to be a focused specialist just be a sorcerer. Is that preferable for this build?

If you're going to do this, then make a Fireblood Dwarf in Dragon Magic with the Magic-Blooded template, go Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, using the Harmonious Knight Paladin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) 1 and Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution levels, take Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, and get a Badge of Valor from MIC asap. Your bonus Draconic Heritage feat should probably be Battle Dragon to switch your DFI damage do sonic. You'll be adding +2d6 damage to everyone's attacks, in addition to being amazing at melee, and you'll be able to cast Wings of Cover to protect multiple characters.

I actually played a character nearly identical to this a while back, in a party with a DFI Bard and an OA Samurai 2/ Harmonious Knight Paladin++, plus two Druids and a summoner Cleric, and two characters had Wild Cohort. Between two dedicated melee characters, four Warbeast Riding Dogs, and tons of summoned monsters, and plenty of crowd control, nothing really stood a chance against us. I think at 4th level we killed a large size Black Dragon (CR 9 or 11) without taking a single point of damage. The DM quit after that session (we switched who was DMing), and he actually blocked the event from his memory somehow, as we brought it up reminiscing about powerful parties a few times and he had no idea what we were talking about.

[keeper2161]

Interesting. I'll have to rethink divine or arcane. For now any suggestions for a arcane dwarven gish?

[Fax Celestis]

Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Eldritch Knight 3 is a classic. Feel free to sub something in for EK.

[cesius]

A Jade Phoenix Mage/Abjurant Champion build is, generally, always good for a gish.

Wizard 4/Fighter 1/Crusader 1/Runesmith 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 3

At all levels in Abjurant Champion, level 17:

+15/+10/+5 BAB (2 behind Fighter progression)
Casting as a level 14 Wizard (3 behind Wizard progression)
Initiator 6: 8 maneuvers known (5 Devoted Spirit and 3 Devoted Spirit or Desert Wind), level 3 maximum, 2 stances known (and it'd take me building level by level to figure out which maneuvers are what level; if anyone has suggestions?)
Cast in heavy armor with no spell failure penalty
Arcane Wrath: lose a spell for +4 to hit and extra damage based on spell level
Mystic Phoenix Stance: increase caster level by one, gain a little AC, and you can lose a spell to gain DR/evil
Empowering Strike: 1/combat, hit a guy and your next spell is Empowered (you don't need to know Empower Spell either)
All the Abjurant Champion boosts


The only odd thing about this build is the requirements for Swiftblade as Dodge and Mobility are not often 'optimal' feats and you need to spend the previous level with only using Haste in your 3rd level spell slots but it gains you (collectively from 3 levels) +3 BAB and +2 to Caster Progression, Spring Attack, +1 to hit and AC and Reflex saves, Blur when Hasted, and you can cast Haste as a free action once per round (it still has to be prepared though). You can easily swap out Swiftblade for another gish appropriate prestige class.

[MirddinEmris]

Wow, i've been mentioned... What a strange feeling. Bet that's how someone like Emperor Tippy feels all the time.

Strangely enough this character was born when i was building gish character through Runesmith, but in the middle decided to go full arcane caster. Initial build was really not that complicated: Runesmith + Abjurant Champion + 4 levels Spellsword for channeling spells into weapon + 1lvl dip into Exotic Weapon Master (dwarven waraxe) for uncanny strike and was using shield + axe combat style with usual things like Shield Ward. Ok, maybe it was a little bit complicated.

More on topic: If you want to play sorcerer, i recommend you Dream Dwarf (RotS), they have penalty in the Dex instead if Cha (also there was a racial substitution levels for dwarf, but i don't remember if it was any good) and have fluffed as something like New Age/hippy dwarfs (which kinda suits Earth Dreamer theme).

As for the feats, i recommend to just take the feats that will support your primary combat style and don't bother with anything else, since you probably will want to fight without relying heavily on spells.

[keeper2161]

Well my idea is to use support spells. Spells that hinder the enemy or buff the party. So feats should go toward the martial side of this gish?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well my idea is to use support spells. Spells that hinder the enemy or buff the party. So feats should go toward the martial side of this gish?

Generally a Gish wants to spend most of their time full attacking. Support spells is for a Batman/God Wizard (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876), not a Gish. If you try to make the character do too much, it's going to be mediocre at everything. A Gish trades a few levels of spellcasting for the proficiencies and BAB to be making physical attacks, but a support wizard doesn't need either of those things and doing that will only hinder your progress. A support wizard can still take Incantatrix and add Persistent Spell to Cloud of Knives (multiple times), Thunderlance, and similar spells that allow you to attack (of opportunity) without sacrificing actions that would be spent on spellcasting, but in that case you don't necessarily need a lot of BAB. Forget about casting spells while wearing armor, it's not very good and not worth the effort it takes to do it without significant drawbacks, especially considering spells like (Greater) Luminous Armor and (Persistent) Shield.

[keeper2161]

So what spells would you recommend?

[MirddinEmris]

Forget about casting spells while wearing armor, it's not very good and not worth the effort it takes to do it without significant drawbacks, especially considering spells like (Greater) Luminous Armor and (Persistent) Shield.

He is going to be a Runesmith, all of his spell will be Auto-stilled, so he can wear any armor he wants. Though i agree that the AC bonus will come from spells, it's still very good for armor and shield enchantments like Soulfire and Freedom. Also, looking cool and being mistaken for a meatshield, therefore underestimated :)

[MirddinEmris]

So what spells would you recommend?

Wraithstrike (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/wraithstrike--3779/) will be you bread and butter, i think. It's a Transmutation swift action spell that allows you to make all of your attacks as touch attacks for a round. Power Attack and this thing are common combo for a gish

[sleepyphoenixx]

So what spells would you recommend?

I'm a fan of Bladeweave (SpC). It's swift action and daze is pretty high on the list of conditions you want to inflict on your enemies, with few things being immune to it.

[keeper2161]

I'm using hero lab and found the spells Belker Claws and Whirling Blade. Belker Claws: With a successful touch attack, you deal 2d12 points of damage. For every three caster levels, the smoke lasts for another round (to a maximum of 4 additional rounds at 12th level), dealing another 2d12 points of damage per round. With the feat Smithing Spell I can use it through my weapon.

Whirling Blade: You hurl a weapon held at the time of casting, and it magically attacks all enemies along a line to the extent of the spell's range. You make a normal melee attack, just as if you were attacking with the weapon in melee, against each foe in the weapon's path. The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores or feats. No matter how many targets your weapon hits or misses, it instantly and unerringly returns to your hand after attempting the last of its attacks.

Since wraith strike is a swift spell can I use it and Belker Claws in the same round and then next round attack?

EDIT: Both are transmutation

[keeper2161]

Fighter(dwarf subst)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Abjurant Champion5/Earth Dreamer5

Fighter(dwarf subst)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Eldritch Knight10

Fighter(dwarf subst)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight5

The Earth Dreamer is simply for flavor. The plan with Abjurant Champion would be to wear armor and get useful enchantments on it rather then the +s. Researching mage armor from conjuration to Abjurant with Abjurant Champion would have a +9 armor bonus which would supersede any armor, same with the Shield spell which would total a +18 AC and have my shield and armor have very useful enchantments. With the Eldritch Knight to finish out the last 5 levels at 20 I would have +18/+13/+8/+3 with 18 casting level, access to level 9 spells, and cast in full plate. With the feat Smiting Spell I can cast touch spells through my weapon. With the feat Arcane Strike I can increase attack and damage at the cost of spells, which as a gish wouldn't be too much of an issue. Any other feats that would be useful?

[MirddinEmris]

Fighter(dwarf subst)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Abjurant Champion5/Earth Dreamer5

Fighter(dwarf subst)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Eldritch Knight10

Fighter(dwarf subst)1/Focused Transmuter4/Runesmith5/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight5

The Earth Dreamer is simply for flavor. The plan with Abjurant Champion would be to wear armor and get useful enchantments on it rather then the +s. Researching mage armor from conjuration to Abjurant with Abjurant Champion would have a +9 armor bonus which would supersede any armor, same with the Shield spell which would total a +18 AC and have my shield and armor have very useful enchantments. With the Eldritch Knight to finish out the last 5 levels at 20 I would have +18/+13/+8/+3 with 18 casting level, access to level 9 spells, and cast in full plate. With the feat Smiting Spell I can cast touch spells through my weapon. With the feat Arcane Strike I can increase attack and damage at the cost of spells, which as a gish wouldn't be too much of an issue. Any other feats that would be useful?

Luminous armor (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/luminous-armor--7/) and it's greater (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/luminous-armor-greater--8/) version is what you are looking for. +5/8 armor AC and abjuration spell. Sure it does some Str damage, but it's really small and the spell have duration of 1hr/lvl (2hr/lvl with Abjurant Champion's ability) which means that you can just cast them at the begining of the day and heal the damage. It also gives -4 penalty for those who attacks in melee which stacks with penalty for those who sensitive to bright light, which armor sheds. Not very stealthy though...

I whouldn't recommend Arcane Strike, you'll have much greater impact is you actually cast those spells to buff yourself. If you take Power Attack, then casting Wraithstrike will allow you to invest nice portion of your BAB which will give you much greater damage than +2d4 (5 in average) if you just spend it in Arcane Strike.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a weapon with a Wand Chamber in Dungeonscape in it, and put a Wand of Wraithstrike in that. Per the Rules Compendium, a wand, staff, or scroll takes the same action to activate as the spell's casting time. You can power attack for your full BAB and still hit most of the time with that.

Polymorph and later Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon into something like a Bladerager Troll (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) or a War Troll (MM3) for amazing physical stats and natural armor. You can even use Persistent Spell via something like Incantatrix or Spelldancer with Draconic Polymorph, as well as Wraithstrike, Greater Invisibility, and many other buffs.

With Abjurant Champion, you can cast Greater Luminous Armor and Shield and have the same bonuses as +5 Full Plate and a +5 Tower Shield, with no max dex bonus or arcane spell failure or armor check penalty, plus melee opponents take a -4 to hit you if they use vision. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration in MIC to fix the Str damage sacrifice that happens when (Greater) Luminous Armor ends.

It's good to have a few extremely effective crowd controls on any character who can cast them, and cast one first thing when you're moving into position to charge or full attack the following round. If they can serve another purpose as well then you have another reason to keep it prepared. Glitterdust is one example of this, and other effective spells include Web, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, and Freezing Fog. All of those have some effect if the targets make any saves or checks permitted, or otherwise just don't allow any chance of resisting. However, you don't want to run out of buffs (Polymorph) because you prepared too many crowd controls! Rope Trick is another spell to have prepared every day, unless someone else in the party can cast it.

In the early levels most gish builds will use a reach weapon such as a Glaive with Combat Reflexes, and take a hand off during their turn to cast a spell before putting it right back on again. Low-level, fight-ending spells like Color Spray are going to be amazing until you have enough levels to hold your own in melee. Until then you want to make sure a more durable character is between you and your opponents, and rely on AoOs and CDGs for dealing damage.

I'm not impressed with the Runesmith class, and when it comes to making an arcane gish that class will only hinder your progress. It doesn't give you any decent BAB progression, so it's not something to include in a well-informed build. A Wizard gish can afford to lose a few levels of BAB on prestige classes, but you want to spend that on Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle or Spelldancer or anything that gives you class features which will actually help you be a better gish, which Runesmith is not. Plus that affordable loss of BAB is only two points, not the three that you would lose if taking all five levels of Runesmith.

Generally you would want to go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5, and finish the build with Eldrithc Knight or Knight Phantom, which gets you 17/20 spellcasting and 18/20 BAB. You can lose two more points of BAB on that build and still get a +16 by 20th level, so take up to four levels of 1/2 BAB classes after Abjurant Champion (or a few before depending on how good they are) and then get EK or KP afterward and you're good. For example, you could get Incantatrix 4 and use its 2nd and 3rd level abilities to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. You could get one or two levels of Spelldancer and one or two levels of Paragnostic Apostle and be able to add Persistent Spell to your buffs as well as gaining Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness.

In the higher levels you can use a Persistent Spell trick with Arcane Spellsurge and nearly all your spells will be a swift action to cast, so you can still full attack or charge/pounce during the same round as you cast a crowd control. You can also get a Circlet of Rapid Casting in MIC and throw out a swift-action Web or Glitterdust without sacrificing any attacks. Keep in mind though that the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat in CM also takes your swift action to activate, and most rounds you'll want to be using that to gain temporary hp or some other benefit.

[MirddinEmris]

I'm not impressed with the Runesmith class, and when it comes to making an arcane gish that class will only hinder your progress. It doesn't give you any decent BAB progression, so it's not something to include in a well-informed build. A Wizard gish can afford to lose a few levels of BAB on prestige classes, but you want to spend that on Incantatrix or Paragnostic Apostle or Spelldancer or anything that gives you class features which will actually help you be a better gish, which Runesmith is not. Plus that affordable loss of BAB is only two points, not the three that you would lose if taking all five levels of Runesmith.

1llv dip gets you auto-still thing, which is very good for any gish type character (and not only them). Also it's d6 HD and two good saves with little-to-none prereq class, so at least as a dip it's a solid choice. Though i agree that his main abilities benefits primary casters much more (especially buffers type), by action economy (let those mundane spend their own actions for buffing pre combat). Spell-like 2/day is good for anybody, 'cause i didn't heard of a character that would suffer from using Limited Wish 2 times a day. But i agree that loss of a 3 points BAB hurts arcane gishes.

[MirddinEmris]

For example, you could get Incantatrix 4 and use its 2nd and 3rd level abilities to add Persistent Spell to your buffs.

And usually somwhere at this point you start to wondering why not just take full caster and Polymorph the shugar out of everything.

[cesius]

So what spells would you recommend?

In addition to Wraithstrike, off the top of my head:

Swift Invisibility
Haste
Greater Magic Weapon (have a +1 Damage X Damage Y Damage Z weapon and then increase the enhancement bonus)
Keen Edge
Benign Transposition
Vampiric Touch
Spider Climb (because nothing says charge like dropping on them from the ceiling)

And with a little search fu:

Giantitp Preferred Gish spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?235497-3-X-Best-Preferred-Gish-spells)

[heavyfuel]

No. Dwarves get a penalty to sorcerer's casting stat, sorcerers get new spells a level later, and it's a lot harder to get or replace new spells as a sorcerer.

Also, Sorcerers don't get Abrupt Jaunt, which sucks

[keeper2161]

Thank you everyone. You guys have been really helpful. I hate being a one trick pony so your spell recommendations will be very helpful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you go with a traditional build of Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion, you should get the Dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighter and use Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2. You use the spell to bull rush opponents, and Dungeoncrasher applies to any form of bull rush so if the unicorn arrow pushes them into a solid obstacle they'll take Dungeoncrasher damage based on your Str bonus. The spell doesn't specify that it has to originate from your direction, so the unicorn arrows could appear above opponents and bull rush them into the ground if there aren't any nearby walls.