Clerics and Gods

[MukkTB]

I enjoy playing casters who primarily channel positive, negative energy or a combination thereof without roleplaying as a priest. Like being a specialist in white magic the same way some wizard could be a fire specialist or only cast ice spells. I was particularly fond of the pathfinder oracle. Even the 3.5 Cleric could be made to work by choosing to worship a concept and then choosing as a concept either positive or negative energy. I picture the magic the gathering color wheel, Wizardy arcane magic is red and blue. Divine magic is black and white.

I have a question about the raw of 5E. By RAW can you access divine magic (not green/red druid magic) without being the servant of a deity? My reading of the player handbook is that you have to receive power from a *god* that chose you. In fact the god forcibly dumps the power onto the individual whether the individual wants to carry that god's flag or not. (A n/e god could empower a n/g person with magic. It's just that the diety can't control what the guy does with with the power and probably wouldn't be happy with the results.) However, its up to the DM to define what counts as a god in his setting. He can choose from anything, starting with a list of pantheons. Zeus, Christ, and Pelor, are all options. But the DM could go further. He could declare the color ultra-blue is a god, he could bring in the flying spaghetti monster, or he could declare true love is a divine force.

I'm not generally in the habit as treating the fluff above the part where class features start as RAW. I feel that stuff can be refluffed as long as it stays in the spirit of the RAW and the DM is ok with it. However the RAW in this case is kind of dependent on the fluff.

From where I'm standing the closest I can be to RAW and get what I want is to convince the DM to give the status of divinity to an impartial force, then declare that god as the source of power for my cleric. Of course its then totally up to the DM if he is ok with that or not.

[rlc]

if it was dumped on you, then you don't need to serve that god. that could even lead into a plot hook, "why was the cleric chosen if he doesn't care about religion?"

[Falka]

It depends on the setting.

Greyhawk priests can just worship a concept (justice, law, nature, etc.) . It doesn't need to be a god. But in the Forgotten Realms, you need to have a patron diety or you will not be able to resurrect (as you are a Faithless and your soul will not be claimed by no one in the afterlife) or have any kind of divine power whatsoever.

Edit: I re-read your question properly now. What you are asking to play is not a Cleric, but another class called Favored Soul.

Favored Souls are born with divine powers. They are 'chosen' of a particular god, but they cannot be stripped of their power, neither the god can directly control the Favored Soul. They are usually born, though, in the midst of a society of cult that worships such faith, so by a cultural standard they are more inclined to follow that god. But it's not functionally required.

Mechanic-wise, they function like a Cleric (same spell-list) but they were spontaneous casters like a Sorcerer (so they just know a few spells, not all, but they don't need to prepare them). I think you could homebrew a Favored Soul by mixing features from the Sorceror with the Cleric's spell list.

[Yorrin]

I'd try to talk your DM into letting you be a philosopher rather than a worshiper of a deity. Knowledge Domain fits this perfectly, and depending on the philosophy arguments can be made for some of the other domains as well.

[Naanomi]

The Default setting being Forgotten Realms means that *everyone* basically has a patron Deity, even people who have nothing to do with Divine Magic; and the only source of Divine Magic is qualitatively the Gods (or being an Ur-Priest I guess). That being said, it is really a question of setting about whether a 'Cleric of a Philosophy' works or not.

[Sir_Leorik]

I enjoy playing casters who primarily channel positive, negative energy or a combination thereof without roleplaying as a priest. Like being a specialist in white magic the same way some wizard could be a fire specialist or only cast ice spells. I was particularly fond of the pathfinder oracle. Even the 3.5 Cleric could be made to work by choosing to worship a concept and then choosing as a concept either positive or negative energy. I picture the magic the gathering color wheel, Wizardy arcane magic is red and blue. Divine magic is black and white.

I have a question about the raw of 5E. By RAW can you access divine magic (not green/red druid magic) without being the servant of a deity? My reading of the player handbook is that you have to receive power from a *god* that chose you. In fact the god forcibly dumps the power onto the individual whether the individual wants to carry that god's flag or not. (A n/e god could empower a n/g person with magic. It's just that the diety can't control what the guy does with with the power and probably wouldn't be happy with the results.) However, its up to the DM to define what counts as a god in his setting. He can choose from anything, starting with a list of pantheons. Zeus, Christ, and Pelor, are all options. But the DM could go further. He could declare the color ultra-blue is a god, he could bring in the flying spaghetti monster, or he could declare true love is a divine force.

I'm not generally in the habit as treating the fluff above the part where class features start as RAW. I feel that stuff can be refluffed as long as it stays in the spirit of the RAW and the DM is ok with it. However the RAW in this case is kind of dependent on the fluff.

From where I'm standing the closest I can be to RAW and get what I want is to convince the DM to give the status of divinity to an impartial force, then declare that god as the source of power for my cleric. Of course its then totally up to the DM if he is ok with that or not.

Here's my suggestion for you, MukkTB: Create a Cleric and choose the Life Domain. Then choose the Charlatan Background. Your character is now a wandering huckster who tries to scam people into believing that he's a faith healer. Unbeknownst to him, he has somehow tapped into actual Divine Energy from an unknown source. How your character feels about this is up to you, though your PC's Alignment would probably play a big role. One of your PC's goals might be to discover why he was chosen to channel Divine power. Basically, you follow every rule for being a Cleric, but the "fluff" is that of a Charlatan.


The Default setting being Forgotten Realms means that *everyone* basically has a patron Deity, even people who have nothing to do with Divine Magic; and the only source of Divine Magic is qualitatively the Gods (or being an Ur-Priest I guess). That being said, it is really a question of setting about whether a 'Cleric of a Philosophy' works or not.

There are characters in the Realms who don't follow a god; these "Faithless" are taken by Kelemvor, god of Death, and their souls are sealed into a brick wall.

[Yenek]

It depends on the setting.

Greyhawk priests can just worship a concept (justice, law, nature, etc.) . It doesn't need to be a god. But in the Forgotten Realms, you need to have a patron diety or you will not be able to resurrect (as you are a Faithless and your soul will not be claimed by no one in the afterlife) or have any kind of divine power whatsoever.

Edit: I re-read your question properly now. What you are asking to play is not a Cleric, but another class called Favored Soul.

Favored Souls are born with divine powers. They are 'chosen' of a particular god, but they cannot be stripped of their power, neither the god can directly control the Favored Soul. They are usually born, though, in the midst of a society of cult that worships such faith, so by a cultural standard they are more inclined to follow that god. But it's not functionally required.

Mechanic-wise, they function like a Cleric (same spell-list) but they were spontaneous casters like a Sorcerer (so they just know a few spells, not all, but they don't need to prepare them). I think you could homebrew a Favored Soul by mixing features from the Sorceror with the Cleric's spell list.

I'd like to add that Favored Souls cast spells using Cha and not Wis.



There are characters in the Realms who don't follow a god; these "Faithless" are taken by Kelemvor, god of Death, and their souls are sealed into a brick wall.

Strange. I distinctly remember it being a stone wall in Mask of the Betrayer. Technically, it's a stone-and-soul wall, especially if FR doesn't recycle souls (either whole or in part), which I don't think it does.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There are characters in the Realms who don't follow a god; these "Faithless" are taken by Kelemvor, god of Death, and their souls are sealed into a brick wall.

I seem to recall that had nothing to do with clerics who were almost by definition not among that category.

Which was a bit more stringently applied then managing to forget a patron but needed you to get aggressive about it.

[Pex]

I find it interesting the book mentions Tyr, Mystra, Azuth, Palladine, and Takhisis with no mention of Asmodeous. It's as if 5E is pretending 4E Forgotten Realms and 3E Dragonlance never happened.

Works for me.

:smallbiggrin:

[rlc]

Don't tieflings have Asmodeus in their ancestry?

[Falka]

I'd like to add that Favored Souls cast spells using Cha and not Wis.

Actually they were kind of cheesy. They needed Wisdom to determine which spell level they could take, but their DCs and spell slots were calculated with their Charisma.


I seem to recall that had nothing to do with clerics who were almost by definition not among that category.

Clerics in the FR setting need to worship a diety, or they can't cast spells. It's not something open to interpretation. Being a Faithless means that also, you can't be resurrected since your soul will be destroyed once you die.

[Sir_Leorik]

Don't tieflings have Asmodeus in their ancestry?

The flavor text for Tieflings does reaffirm their 4E origin story, rather than the the 2E and 3.X one: their ancestors made a pact that infused the essence of Asmodeus, overlord of the Nine Hells, into their bloodline.

Asmodeus is also mentioned in the Warlock entry, as one of the possible Patrons for PCs taking The Fiend as their Otherwoldly Patron.

It's possible that Asmodeus lost power during the Sundering, when Ao returned and redistributed portfolios and Avatars to the pantheon. Since Asmodeus' divinity was stolen in the first place, Ao probably took it away from the Lord of the Nine.

On the other hand, Takhisis and Paladine being listed in the Dragonlance pantheons means one of two things:

1) A reboot of the setting may be coming up;

2) or they are there for DMs who want to run adventures before Takhisis was killed and Paladine became mortal, at the end of the War of Souls.

[Sir_Leorik]

Clerics in the FR setting need to worship a diety, or they can't cast spells. It's not something open to interpretation. Being a Faithless means that also, you can't be resurrected since your soul will be destroyed once you die.

I thought that Kelemvor imprisons the souls of the Faithless as mortar in a wall of stone. (Or are the souls turned into stones?) I also remember reading somewhere that the Demons and Devils would try stealing souls from Kelemvor's wall to turn into Larvae for use in the Blood War. Can anyone confirm this?

I think that having a soul held by Kelemvor would probably keep the deceased from being raised anyway.

[pwykersotz]

I thought that Kelemvor imprisons the souls of the Faithless as mortar in a wall of stone. (Or are the souls turned into stones?) I also remember reading somewhere that the Demons and Devils would try stealing souls from Kelemvor's wall to turn into Larvae for use in the Blood War. Can anyone confirm this?

I think that having a soul held by Kelemvor would probably keep the deceased from being raised anyway.

I can confirm that I've read (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307827-Discussion-Only-FR-The-Wall-of-the-Faithless) the same (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless) thing (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Faithless).

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe the godless cleric was the result of a screwup. He has a really similar name (or truename) to a powerful cleric, so the god keeps accidentally granting all those spells to him instead, while the "true" cleric is running around wondering why his god has forsaken him.

[Falka]

I thought that Kelemvor imprisons the souls of the Faithless as mortar in a wall of stone. (Or are the souls turned into stones?) I also remember reading somewhere that the Demons and Devils would try stealing souls from Kelemvor's wall to turn into Larvae for use in the Blood War. Can anyone confirm this?

I think that having a soul held by Kelemvor would probably keep the deceased from being raised anyway.

The soul is destroyed as it merges with the Wall of the Faithless. It's not actually something that Kelemvor invented: it was Myrkul's idea to avoid atheism as it directly poses a problem to gods and the general "flow of souls" that is set up in the FR cosmology. Kelemvor just acknowledged that this system worked and kept it.

And yes, this seems to take some time as tanari (demons) usually raid the City of Judgement and steal souls from the wall to turn them into demon larvae, as you correctly said. Also, before facing Kelemvor's judgmenet, there are baatezu (devil) camps settled in the outskirts of the City, to tempt mortal souls into becoming devils. Some Faithless could "trick" Kelemvor by accepting this offer instead of facing trial, but you know... it means becoming a lemur (or if you're high level, something a bit better) and some think the wall is better than going devil / demon.

The ones that are sentenced to remain forever in the City of Judgement are the False (I'm not quite sure if it's the proper term in English, mind you). These are mostly Charlatans and people that have changed faith too many times, and it's not clear which diety would be their patron. But it's not the same as refusing to worship the gods at all (case of the Faithless).

A False can be revived, however. They just can't pass to the afterlife in a cheesy nice plane.