Reach weapons: get my 7777 ft. reach!

[Ohiohi]

So, i red so many threads about the pros and cons of a reach weapon, but the question is... how much reach can the Playground stack? what's the biggest amount we can get on a medium character?

[Inevitability]

Infinite. Gate in a Sarrukh and command him to give you the following ability:

Infinite Reach (Ex): This creature has a reach of ∞ feet.


Okay people, proceed with the actually helpful answers.

[Taveena]

You'd probably want to use the Thunder Lance spell, which has 20 feet of reach - though it might not stack with size increases. If it doesn't, use the Rope Dart or Meteor Hammer from Dragon #319 - 15 foot base reach, and can attack adjacent.
Throw in Willing Deformity (Tall), Inhuman Reach, Extended Reach, Lunge, and the Reach psionic power for a base reach of 30 yards. If you grow to Colossal size, you're now sitting at a reach of 240 feet with the rope weapons, and 270 feet for the Thunder Lance.
Dancing Blade Form adds five foot to reach - though it presumably doesn't scale with size. So that's 245/275 ft. reach. Woo!

[Seppo87]

willing deformity won't stack with size increase as it requires to be Medium, therefore it stops working as you do not meet the size requirement anymore

[Taveena]

... Damn. Knock 30 feet off the calculations, then. That's bloody odd, though. You'd think all those Ogres and Minotaurs would be more inclined towards willing deformities.

[Piggy Knowles]

Infinite. Gate in a Sarrukh and command him to give you the following ability:

Infinite Reach (Ex): This creature has a reach of ∞ feet.

Eh, nothing in the Manipulate Form ability says you can make up abilities. The beauty of Pun-Pun is that it accomplishes everything using all existing abilities. Here's a list of many of his best abilities and what RAW ways he gained access to them (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2705.0).


Okay people, proceed with the actually helpful answers.

A Drunken Master with the Improved Improvised Weapons ability can have a reach equal to whatever she can wield:


Improved Improvised Weapons (Ex): A drunken master of 4th level or higher can use long improvised weapons (such as ladders) as reach weapons according to their length, and improvised weapons with many protrusions (such as chairs) provide a +2 bonus on opponents' disarm attempts.

So yield a very, very long improvised weapon. I believe Count had a build using this with some Spools of Endless Rope to have reach thousands of feet long.

[Mithril Leaf]

Be Evil and do things in the following order:
Get your arms replaced with Long Arms (+5 Reach)
Willing Deformity -> Willing Deformity (Tall)
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach
Use your freakish tentacle arms from the above feats to take Extended Reach from Savage Species
Use Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield a Spiked Chain.
I was in the process of doing this for E6, and this is the best I can come up with without casting.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can spend a lot of feats, class levels and gold on increasing your reach. Here's the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127732-3-X-Increasing-Size-Effective-Size-Unarmed-Damage-Reach&p=7081777#post7081777).

Or you could just be a druid, wild shape into the Ironthorn (FF) and get 4 natural attacks with a 60ft reach, among other things.*
For additional hilarity drop a level on Hierophant for Power of Nature and turn your whole party/animal companions/familiars/cohorts into Ironthorns.
*You're also still a druid. Get some dex bonus and an item that grants Combat Reflexes and ignore it except for AoO's. You have better things to do with your actual actions.

[Taveena]

You'd probably want to use the Thunder Lance spell, which has 20 feet of reach - though it might not stack with size increases. If it doesn't, use the Rope Dart or Meteor Hammer from Dragon #319 - 15 foot base reach, and can attack adjacent.
Throw in Willing Deformity (Tall), Inhuman Reach, Extended Reach, Lunge, and the Reach psionic power for a base reach of 30 yards. If you grow to Colossal size, you're now sitting at a reach of 240 feet with the rope weapons, and 270 feet for the Thunder Lance.
Dancing Blade Form adds five foot to reach - though it presumably doesn't scale with size. So that's 245/275 ft. reach. Woo!

Oh, whoops, I've got another 20 feet to base reach! Umbral Disciple's level 10 ability. Bam.
45 foot base reach with rope weapons, 50 with Thunderlance. 270/300 at Colossal, 275/305 with DBF.

[Ohiohi]

Infinite. Gate in a Sarrukh and command him to give you the following ability:

Infinite Reach (Ex): This creature has a reach of ∞ feet.


So you threaten the whole world... it's a joke, like: a chinese, an italian and an american enter in a bar, you get three attacks of opportunity

[Necroticplague]

Also, the Lunge feat lets you increase your range for a turn by five feet.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I mean, there's Warshaper, Inhuman Reach, Willing Deformity (Tall), enlarging spell effects, etc....

Or you can go the easy fun route and just dip into Drunken Master.

Improved Improvised Weapons (Ex): A drunken master of 4th level or higher can use long improvised weapons (such as ladders) as reach weapons according to their length, and improvised weapons with many protrusions (such as chairs) provide a +2 bonus on opponents' disarm attempts. Finally, large objects with broad, flat surfaces (such as tables) can be upended to become improvised tower shields.

Fun fact: Troll Gut Rope in MIC extends to 350 ft, and remains that length for 12 hours at a time (and is re-usable), and they're dirt cheap enough (500 gp) to get a bunch of rolls of it in case of sundering.

Enjoy! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Whoops, missed Piggy's post.

[Inevitability]

Eh, nothing in the Manipulate Form ability says you can make up abilities. The beauty of Pun-Pun is that it accomplishes everything using all existing abilities. Here's a list of many of his best abilities and what RAW ways he gained access to them (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2705.0).

Actually, it does let you make up abilities. The original build even refers to it. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)#Manipulate_Fo rm_and_Extreme_Cheese:)

[Piggy Knowles]

Actually, it does let you make up abilities. The original build even refers to it. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)#Manipulate_Fo rm_and_Extreme_Cheese:)

There was endless debate around Pun-Pun at the time of its creation regarding that statement. Per Manipulate Form:


A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.

The basic argument against Manipulate Form granting player-designed abilities, from what I recall, went something like this:

1. The ability says you may grant an extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like ability, but does not say you can create one yourself.

2. Beyond existing and printed abilities, only the DM can say what qualifies as a supernatural, extraordinary or spell-like ability, since they literally exist outside of the rules.

3. The one thing that can stop Pun-Pun is DM intervention, so involving anything that deals with DM fiat (see point 2) is the last thing you want to do with Pun-Pun.

Anyhow, Pun-Pun already has infinite (and multiplanar) reach, so a Sarrukh can still grant it to you. It's just a more circuitous method. The link I posted earlier has details.

[gooddragon1]

There was endless debate around Pun-Pun at the time of its creation regarding that statement. Per Manipulate Form:



The basic argument against Manipulate Form granting player-designed abilities, from what I recall, went something like this:

1. The ability says you may grant an extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like ability, but does not say you can create one yourself.

2. Beyond existing and printed abilities, only the DM can say what qualifies as a supernatural, extraordinary or spell-like ability, since they literally exist outside of the rules.

3. The one thing that can stop Pun-Pun is DM intervention, so involving anything that deals with DM fiat (see point 2) is the last thing you want to do with Pun-Pun.

Anyhow, Pun-Pun already has infinite (and multiplanar) reach, so a Sarrukh can still grant it to you. It's just a more circuitous method. The link I posted earlier has details.

Theoretical Optimization always assumes a permissive DM. Your 1st point is actually an instance of practical optimization. More specifically: 1. Not everything needs to be stated explicitly in the rules; some things just are. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1046771) Theoretical optimization has no need for such things. For 2 and 3, see permissive DM above.

Think of TO like a tool assisted speedrun. Not possible with normal human reflexes, but still technically possible without altering the game.

[Piggy Knowles]

I understand what TO is. I'm saying that once you begin creating your own abilities because the rules don't say you can't, you've moved beyond RAW and into homebrew and DM-fiat territory. At that point... well, what's the point?

And TO does not require a permissive DM; it doesn't require a DM at all, because it's theoretical. So any ability that involves the DM is pretty pointless for a TO build.

Basically, I disagree with the notion that optimization falls into two categories (Practical Op versus Theoretical Op). I think it actually falls into three categories: PO, TO and Wanking.

PO is looking at the Genesis spell and using it to create a fortified demiplane as the base of operations for your super-paranoid wizard.

TO is looking at the Genesis spell, realizing it doesn't have the restriction on playing with time traits that the equivalent psionic power possesses, and using it to create a demiplane with the flowing time trait for 999,999:1 time. It's theoretical, but it's still all by the book, as flowing time is an already existing planar trait, and this is just taking it to its logical conclusion.

Wanking is looking at the Genesis spell, realizing that it doesn't restrict the traits you add to traits that already exist by the books, and using it to create a demiplane with the trait "Haldavar Wins: After spending any amount of time on this demiplane, Haldavar the Mighty cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly, even when he leaves this plane. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time. Further, Haldavar the Mighty automatically succeeds at anything he attempts." You can technically argue that it's legal because the rules don't say you can't do it, but... what's the point? You're not optimizing at this point; you're wanking.

All of which is totally off-topic. To bring things back on topic...

The capstone ability of the Umbral Disciple gets an additional 5' of reach for every point of essentia invested. This normally would cap out at 4 essentia/20 feet... but you can combine it with the Incandescent Champion's incarnum overload ability, which lets you increase the essentia cap by your Charisma bonus. (This is part of how Pun-Pun has infinite reach, thanks to this combined with NI Charisma and infinite essentia.)

[gooddragon1]

I understand what TO is. I'm saying that once you begin creating your own abilities because the rules don't say you can't, you've moved beyond RAW and into homebrew and DM-fiat territory. At that point... well, what's the point?

And TO does not require a permissive DM; it doesn't require a DM at all, because it's theoretical. So any ability that involves the DM is pretty pointless for a TO build.

Basically, I disagree with the notion that optimization falls into two categories (Practical Op versus Theoretical Op). I think it actually falls into three categories: PO, TO and Wanking.

PO is looking at the Genesis spell and using it to create a fortified demiplane as the base of operations for your super-paranoid wizard.

TO is looking at the Genesis spell, realizing it doesn't have the restriction on playing with time traits that the equivalent psionic power possesses, and using it to create a demiplane with the flowing time trait for 999,999:1 time. It's theoretical, but it's still all by the book, as flowing time is an already existing planar trait, and this is just taking it to its logical conclusion.

Wanking is looking at the Genesis spell, realizing that it doesn't restrict the traits you add to traits that already exist by the books, and using it to create a demiplane with the trait "Haldavar Wins: After spending any amount of time on this demiplane, Haldavar the Mighty cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly, even when he leaves this plane. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time. Further, Haldavar the Mighty automatically succeeds at anything he attempts." You can technically argue that it's legal because the rules don't say you can't do it, but... what's the point? You're not optimizing at this point; you're wanking.

All of which is totally off-topic. To bring things back on topic...

The capstone ability of the Umbral Disciple gets an additional 5' of reach for every point of essentia invested. This normally would cap out at 4... but you can combine it with the Incandescent Champion's incarnum overload ability, which lets you increase the essentia cap by you Charisma bonus. (This is part of how Pun-Pun has infinite reach, thanks to this combined with NI Charisma and infinite essentia.)

Well, since you asked: The point of theoretical optimization is to find the limits of the rules. I think the author of Pun-Pun found the end of TO in a poorly worded ability that allows for anything due to it's wording. I think rules lawyers everywhere got madder than wet hens and debate it to this day. You can define it as wanking if you want. But TO is about finding the limits, and while this use of pun-pun goes down the road of non-rules cheese it is still more defined than simply lumping it under made up rules (such as ignoring the death rules). It was a mistake on the part of the designers to create something that gave that definition a possibility. However, it was an inevitable mistake with the amount of material they printed for 3.5 and one of the roles they (perhaps inadvertently) put on the DM is to smooth out those problems. Also, you may want to consider not asking a question in your post if you don't want a response.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, since you asked: The point of theoretical optimization is to find the limits of the rules. I think the author of Pun-Pun found the end of TO in a poorly worded ability that allows for anything due to it's wording. I think rules lawyers everywhere got madder than wet hens and debate it to this day. You can define it as wanking if you want. But TO is about finding the limits, and while this use of pun-pun goes down the road of non-rules cheese it is still more defined than simply lumping it under made up rules (such as ignoring the death rules). It was a mistake on the part of the designers to create something that gave that definition a possibility. However, it was an inevitable mistake with the amount of material they printed for 3.5 and one of the roles they (perhaps inadvertently) put on the DM is to smooth out those problems. Also, you may want to consider not asking a question in your post if you don't want a response.

I believe you are missing his point, which was that claiming Pun-Pun can have made up abilities is just wanking, and TO is the Pun-Pun can have any written and defined ability in the game.

[Fax Celestis]

a chinese, an italian and an american enter in a bar, you get three attacks of opportunity

I don't sig quotes, but if I did, this would be it.