Why Common Sense Has No Point In Gaming - Population Growth

[atemu1234]

I was looking through spawn-creating undead, and also looking at average levels for commoners as opposed to population, and can come to no reason why a shadow doesn't destroy the entire planet, simply because it can wipe out a small city, from which the plague spreads and devours another city. Adventurers are so rare, it doesn't make sense they could stop them all.

Vampires drink blood to survive, and when their enemies die, they become spawn. But they don't have the same issues because vampires are designed to limit growth, at least slightly.

Anyway, I want another opinion on this. Anyone got a reason this wouldn't happen?

[eggynack]

Shadows aren't all that hard to kill if you have the right resources, and they're relatively unintelligent, so their plans for world domination would be somewhat limited. You really don't need crazy high level adventurers to handle them, though having them around helps. You just need mid-level folks that tend to populate moderately sized cities. Sure, the shadows would take out some smaller areas, but once it's a known threat, a caster could probably take them out without much effort. It also seems relevant that shadows are just another threat in a world full of them, so it's possible that other high power creatures would take them out if they got out of hand. I can't say I disagree with your main premise though. Common sense is oft likely to lead someone astray, even if I don't think that's the thing that applies in this particular situation.

[atemu1234]

Shadows aren't all that hard to kill if you have the right resources, and they're relatively unintelligent, so their plans for world domination would be somewhat limited. You really don't need crazy high level adventurers to handle them, though having them around helps. You just need mid-level folks that tend to populate moderately sized cities. Sure, the shadows would take out some smaller areas, but once it's a known threat, a caster could probably take them out without much effort. It also seems relevant that shadows are just another threat in a world full of them, so it's possible that other high power creatures would take them out if they got out of hand. I can't say I disagree with your main premise though. Common sense is oft likely to lead someone astray, even if I don't think that's the thing that applies in this particular situation.

But common people don't have access to those sorts of resources, and there are more than enough shadows constantly spreading to make wiping out the threat difficult indeed.

[Hazrond]

But common people don't have access to those sorts of resources, and there are more than enough shadows constantly spreading to make wiping out the threat difficult indeed.

MY guess is that a D&D world is like a normal ecosystem, the shadows while being deadly predators for commoners are probably prey to other monsters, which is what keeps the shadow population in-check

[Slipperychicken]

I like the way Tome of Necromancy dealt with the shadowpocalypse. Basically, Shadows would spawn from specified points of great darkness and evil, and would then disappear 24 hours after spawning. Any spawn would disappear along with its "parent" shadow, and the shadows typically stay close to the spawn point anyway unless impelled to leave.

One could also argue for a campaign setting that shadows (and wights) are kept in check by their own stupidity, disorganization, and persistent action from holy orders and and governments to wipe them out. A town might be infested once in a while, but an expedition usually clears them out before they can get out of control.

[killem2]

But common people don't have access to those sorts of resources, and there are more than enough shadows constantly spreading to make wiping out the threat difficult indeed.

I would not doubt the spread, but the containment would be equally as easy. Every land mass, has kingdoms good or evil and neither want to lose their lives to shadows. The common folk won't have the resources, but the vast kingdoms abroad most certainly do.

[eggynack]

But common people don't have access to those sorts of resources, and there are more than enough shadows constantly spreading to make wiping out the threat difficult indeed.
Common people don't have access to those resources, but once you're talking about taking out a serious city, we're no longer talking about common people. Wiping out a mass of shadows certainly isn't the easiest thing in the world, but it's nowhere near the hardest. I figure something like vortex of teeth would be a good place to start. Yes, you can wipe out your small city, but once you go for world domination, those very adventurers who weren't in consideration before enter it now, and really, they can probably handle it. D&D is a high power world. If you only consider the low power parts of it when assessing plans of world domination, then a lot of things are going to be successful.

[Khatoblepas]

They haven't because if a D&D world exists, it has adventurers in it (i.e the party), and the party will give themselves plenty of reasons to defeat a Shadow/Wightocalypse.

But seriously, Undead-hating gods like Pelor (who are incredibly popular for temples!) would also send their clerics, who would regularly use divinations to root out evil undead plots, and since they have the Sun domain, they would be pretty able to destroy Shadows pretty easily. The highest level cleric in any given community would be:

1d6+3 for a large town,
2d6b1+6 for a small city.
3d6b1+9 for a large city
4d6b1+12 for a metropolis.

Even if there's one Metropolis in the setting, the Undead Apocalypse would be averted. There might be heavy losses in a smaller setting, but the average setting would be able to do it. Heck, even a bunch of apprentice wizards with Wands of Magic Missile/Lesser Orb of Force would be able to help take down Shadows, so long as they're protected by clerics. And to avert a Shadow Apocalypse? It's worth the expense.

[Segev]

Here's the thing: Any shadow smart enough to have plans for world domination (as opposed to simply controlling their own little corner of it) will also be smart enough to realize that the "shadow apocalypse" scenario doesn't leave THEM in charge. Why not? Because even if they start it off and control all the shadows from it, there'll be a necromancer who comes to investigate and who starts taking control of his minions...and eventually controls him. And if it's not a necromancer, it'll be heroes out to save the world, and even if they screw things up by killing him too soon (thus leaving lots of uncontrolled shadows lying around), they'll still get HIM, the master shadow. And so he's dead rather than undead, and that defeats the purpose of the exercise.

Most shadows, following the "hatred of life" thing, will be lone hunters and predators. Even if they prey fast and hard, they'll get adventurers called in to deal with them in typical adventurer fashion. They're not bright enough to disperse throughout the world unless given the idea, so they get hunted down and destroyed before they can do more than local-scale damage, no matter how serious.

The shadows may not have natural predators, but there are minion-masters out there who'd love to gain control of a spawning nest of them.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Shadows are intelligent, likely intelligent enough to not wipe out their own food source,
aside from the question of why would they do it there are a few explanations. They can only travel by night, and a huge explosion in there population would immediately attract the attention of adventurers or even deities.

One house rule I like is spawn can not create spawn. So until the master shadow dies none of his children can create spawn themselves. This makes population growth a lot slower.

[The Insanity]

D&D isn't a simulation.

Adventurers aren't as rare as you think.

Also, IIRC, shadows are tied to an area, so they don't go and conquer kingdoms.

[Bhaakon]

Adventurers are rare, but there are dozens-to-hundreds of powerful NPCs and monsters for ever PC (to hand out quests and provide XP), and a lot of them have a strong interest in preventing anything along the lines of a shadow-pocolypse. Even evil monsters need a safe place to live and commoners to exploit/terrorize/devour. Most of them, anyway.

[The Insanity]

And in case of a threat to the entire world, there's always Elminster to do what incompetent PCs can't.

[DeltaEmil]

Shadows are intelligent, likely intelligent enough to not wipe out their own food source,
aside from the question of why would they do it there are a few explanations. They can only travel by night, and a huge explosion in there population would immediately attract the attention of adventurers or even deities.

One house rule I like is spawn can not create spawn. So until the master shadow dies none of his children can create spawn themselves. This makes population growth a lot slower.Shadows do not feed on people unless you use the undead metabolism rules from Libris Mortis. According to that book, shadows don't really care about what their spawns do, letting them roam around searching for living creatures to deal strength damage to, and if that living creature happens to be a humanoid that becomes a spawn, then eh, no worry for the shadow. They also do not have any daylight powerlessness like wraiths, which is why the shadowpocalypse is always used as the ultimate unbeatable alpha strike option in "real world vs. D&D world" discussions.

[ibtfu]

Tbh, it's best not to think too deeply about ecology and economy in D&D. They're both broken and incomprehensible in the D&D world.

[Bhaakon]

They tend to defy most people's comprehension in the real world, as well.

[Psyren]

Because published settings have churches (and usually, very powerful outsiders backing up those churches) whose job it is to prevent exactly this sort of situation from happening. A Shadow or Wight preying on a remote village could possibly go unchecked for a while. But taking over an entire hamlet or larger will attract attention that such a creature is simply not equipped to deal with.

[Inevitability]

Something that may be relevant:

Magical Training (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/magical-training--1834/) states:


You come from a land where cantrips are taught to all who have the aptitude to learn magic. Every crafter and artisan, it seems, knows a minor spell or two.

Depending on what 'the aptitude to learn magic' means (my guess is qualifying for the feat) there could be potentially thousands of commoners who are able to use magic. A group of 40 commoners with Horizakaul's Cough could, on average, kill 3 shadows in 3 rounds. Their other spells could be spend on something like dancing light, in order to warn other people if there's a shadow close to them.

Of course, a good argument could be made that commoners shouldn't have exactly those spells. They can just add these to their spellbook, though, as per the rules compendium.


ADDING SPELLS TO A SPELLBOOK
Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add new spells to their
spellbooks through several methods.

[Flickerdart]

Something that may be relevant:
Magical Training isn't even the best way to go about this. A single guy with Shape Soulmeld: Apparition Ribbon can put a hurt on shadows.

[Twilightwyrm]

Speak of intervention by other monsters, the titular Dragons of the game might take exception, even (perhaps especially) the evil ones. If an infestation of shadows threatens the local populations, most good dragons are going to go in a clean up on principle, and evil dragons are going to either go in a wipe them out (or enslave them if they practice necromancy) for daring to threaten their food source/regional primacy/sources of tribute/objects of amusement, or simply because the shadows annoy them.
Incidentally, Undead-on-Undead violence is not out of the picture, as vampires will recognize that the shadows are threatening their food source, and thus will take steps to end the infestation.
Further, plenty of magical beasts and any fey will take exception to the shadows' growing numbers, including Unicorns, even one of which in the vicinity of a village would be enough to wipe any growing shadow infestation pretty much on its own.

[Inevitability]

Magical Training isn't even the best way to go about this. A single guy with Shape Soulmeld: Apparition Ribbon can put a hurt on shadows.

True. I chose Magical Training because that one actually has a rule on how common it is. Shape Soulmeld isn't something I'd expect to find on everyone in a whole city.

[Yahzi]

I think you are 100% correct. D&D doesn't even consider economics.

For gold, this doesn't matter, because we all know how that works anyway. DMs just use a vague approximation of real-world economics behind the scenes.

But we don't have an analog for the economics of power. Shadows are the least of it; 17th level casters reshape the world. For a nation, having one is the difference between global supremacy and utter subjugation. How is a DM supposed to create a consistent and believable world when whole nations are fighting over a resource - XP - that is entirely hand-waved?

I came up with an answer. In my world XP is a tangible resource. It is harvested from people, and you can buy and sell it (1 XP = 5 gp) or use it gain levels. This means that a fief of peasants is worth protecting, because not only does it make gold, it makes XP. It also means that the bigger the fief, the bigger the guy who protects it. Most nobles are in on the gravy train; the local baron hands out some XP to make knights and wizards in addition to keeping his own level high. The only people who go out into the wild looking for XP in dangerous places like dungeons or monsters are the out-of-luck losers - i.e. PCs.

The monsters live by the same rules. So for a Shadow to spawn, it has to consume enough XP to create another CR 3 creature (which is the same as creating a 3rd level character). Thus the monsters are preying on peasants, who are happy to give their XP to a high-level lord who can protect them. All those magic items, all those caster levels, all those monsters are limited by the supply of XP, which is a direct product of the supply of peasants (not necessarily human ones).

Not only does this give the DM guidelines for how powerful various people and institutions are, it gives the players a tremendous amount of choice. They know what they need to do to gain levels; they have to choose between spending their treasure on levels or magic items; they know they have to fear the king in the castle with 100,000 peasants, but they can probably push around the guy with 100 peasants. It explains why random monsters have treasure in the first place (they have piles of XP they are saving up to spawn their next offspring). It explains why wizards will make magic items for gold (because they can buy XP with it). It is the international currency: demons don't want gold ,they want XP. Which is why the bad guys sacrifice innocents to them.

And players love it. I knew I was on to something when my players spent far more XP on their henchmen than any rule would have required them to. D&D has been described as a resource management game; well, XP is the single most valuable resource. Why not explicitly let the players manage it?

I know it sounds a bit odd, but once you try it you realize the rules have always supported it (in 1E gold was XP, in 3E they established that 1 XP = 5 gp). And it works so well, I wrote a book about it. :)

[Hecuba]

If the town has a good-aligned temple, even a low level one, then it sells holy water at cost.

That means they do have a method to harm the shadows, however dangerous the attempt might be to the small town hero.


Edit: But yes: demographics, economics, and ecology are all beyond repair for most D&D settings. If they actually worked properly, you would need some very heavy-handed external forces to maintain Medieval Stasis.

[Phelix-Mu]

If the town has a good-aligned temple, even a low level one, then it sells holy water at cost.

That means they do have a method to harm the shadows, however dangerous the attempt might be to the small town hero.


Edit: But yes: demographics, economics, and ecology are all beyond repair for most D&D settings. If they actually worked properly, you would need some very heavy-handed external forces to maintain Medieval Stasis.

Actually, several good-aligned churches probably hand out holy water at significant discount/free, or available for a modest donation. Certainly, for a rural chapel dedicated to Pelor, there are likely few investments as easy to make or as useful as holy water, if undead are a concern. Simply flooding the populace with low-cost holy water can make a pretty good dent in the impact undead can have.

I personally allow for rituals that even non-casters can learn that can ward an area against malign forces (an idea I borrowed from Exalted). Such rituals use classic exorcist/onmyoudo flavor using auspicious materials (salt, holy water, incense), and while they would likely be beyond the ken of most commoners, Experts would likely exist specifically to provide these services. Sadly, in the world of magic, such wards are only going to work against the weakest of threats, but still better than the nothing that many people can currently do against shadows.

[killem2]

Actually, several good-aligned churches probably hand out holy water at significant discount/free, or available for a modest donation. Certainly, for a rural chapel dedicated to Pelor, there are likely few investments as easy to make or as useful as holy water, if undead are a concern. Simply flooding the populace with low-cost holy water can make a pretty good dent in the impact undead can have.

I personally allow for rituals that even non-casters can learn that can ward an area against malign forces (an idea I borrowed from Exalted). Such rituals use classic exorcist/onmyoudo flavor using auspicious materials (salt, holy water, incense), and while they would likely be beyond the ken of most commoners, Experts would likely exist specifically to provide these services. Sadly, in the world of magic, such wards are only going to work against the weakest of threats, but still better than the nothing that many people can currently do against shadows.

And in most worlds all it takes is one, finely tuned cleric that has made it is life to erradicating all forms of undead from the world and though 99% of his lifes teachings has been a waste, if the OP scenario were to happen, his time to shine would be then. Given a decent team, it would be no contest.

Now, if the OP topic was dealing with say, Wizards in general, and their foresight to realize, that "We're kind of a big deal around here" and take advantage I could say I would be worried to live in such a place lol.

[Psyren]

True. I chose Magical Training because that one actually has a rule on how common it is. Shape Soulmeld isn't something I'd expect to find on everyone in a whole city.

A Skarn commoner would probably welcome the chance to bash his way to shadowy glory on the path to becoming an Incarnate.

[Phelix-Mu]

And in most worlds all it takes is one, finely tuned cleric that has made it is life to erradicating all forms of undead from the world and though 99% of his lifes teachings has been a waste, if the OP scenario were to happen, his time to shine would be then. Given a decent team, it would be no contest.

Agreed. And I think it is clear from the description of the shadows that, while shadowpocalypse is a theoretical possibility, it is not their common behavior pattern. Otherwise they'd be described as "the exceptionally common threat hunting mortals to the brink of extinction." That's not the description, they don't experience exponential growth rates, they behave otherwise for their own reasons.

Unlike adventurers, not every monster has an innate need to dominate the world. A tasty commoner every fortnight or so; such is the good life.

Question: Can a shadow decline to create spawn, or is the process automatic?

[ace rooster]

I generally take the veiw that the presented rules are not a complete description of the physics of the world. They are generally limited to the short term implications for adventurers, and the results will always be fishy if you try to apply them outside of the scope they are designed for, or assume that they are the only rules in effect. For example, a general limit of 200HD of undead per square km would very rarely be relevent for adventurers, but massively changes how a setting behaves (and how intellegent undead behave). The fact that an undead apocolypse does not happen every time somebody summons a wight in a market implies that there must be something like this preventing it (Note that any response has to happen in less than 5 mins to prevent thousands of wights being created if we assume that the rules as given are the extent of the behavior. A response time of 1 min will still probably have to contain 10+. Even for epic characters, containing an established wight outbreak in a densely populated area would be nearly impossible).

I call it the stable setting principle. The idea is that any (obvious) effect that would destabalise the setting does not scale as expected. Common sense dictates that this must be in effect, or else the setting would have changed already. The rules as presented only reliably apply to adventurers, and even then only when they are adventuring. They are only a guide in other situations, and large deviations from them are to be expected.

One thing I use is a mana type system underlying the vancian casting. The idea is that the vancian limits are a bit like your daily spending limits on your bank account. For adventurers the maximum power they can output in a day (round even) is the most important factor, but for most characters the actual amount in their 'account' is a much more important limit. This has no impact on adventurers at all, but limits the impact of magic on the setting in a tunable way. It can even be tuned by spell if required.

[Thanatosia]

As Ace Rooster said, it's best to just treat all Rules as unrealistic approximations for the sake of gameplay and try not to think in terms of an OOTS world where the rules are the actual laws of reality - every fight does not go down with both fighters doing no harm to the other then suddenly one drops over dead for example. I do hate that spawn undead mechanics, both in D&D and in fiction is often poorly thought out in terms of what keeps it in balance, I do think most authors would do well to invest a little more thought in that.

[AMFV]

The problem is that you are looking at this from a reverse perspective to how it should be looked at. You are saying "Well Shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so reality is flawed." When you should be saying "Well shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so my theory must have something missing."

[Psyren]

The problem is that you are looking at this from a reverse perspective to how it should be looked at. You are saying "Well Shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so reality is flawed." When you should be saying "Well shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so my theory must have something missing."

Exactly. Bravo!

[Graypairofsocks]

Question: Can a shadow decline to create spawn, or is the process automatic?

The book of bad latin "Libris Mortis" says (as a vartiant rule) that undead can take a DC 15 int check to prevent a spawn from being created whenever it normally would.

[Psyren]

Unforuntately, Shadows aren't very smart - they have an 80% chance of failing this check.

[eggynack]

Unforuntately, Shadows aren't very smart - they have an 80% chance of failing this check.
There's something vaguely tragic about that, I think.

[Psyren]

There's something vaguely tragic about that, I think.

If you're too dumb to know that you're dumb, there's nothing to worry about :smalltongue: It's probably quite liberating.

(That was a general "you" referring to the shadows - I wasn't calling eggynack dumb of course.)

[eggynack]

If you're too dumb to know that you're dumb, there's nothing to worry about :smalltongue: It's probably quite liberating.

I was mostly thinking about a shadow who desperately wants to avoid creating spawn, maybe because he wants to avert the shadowpocalypse, but despite his best possible efforts, all of his limited mental acuity applied to the problem, he still fails the vast majority of the time. He just wants to lead a stable and solitary existence, and it's nearly impossible. Perhaps 6 intelligence is just smart enough to recognize the ramifications of his actions, but just dumb enough that he can't possibly do anything to avert them.

[Psyren]

Such a Shadow would be truly exceptional given the Always CE tag. It would make a great story though.

Shadows are listed under "inescapable craving" in LM, which would make abstaining from life energy problematic before long.

[eggynack]

Such a Shadow would be truly exceptional given the Always CE tag. It would make a great story though.
Yeah, it's really more of an interesting turn of events than a probable one. There's always the possibility that the desire not to create spawn is a self serving one though, driven by the possibility that the population of shadows is unsustainable in some fashion, and creating competition over food is just a bad plan. That'd still be somewhat interesting, though perhaps less so.

[Snails]

The shadowpoclypse argument is just a variant of the "I am so much smarter than Tolkien: eagles." argument.

As others have already said, that we have incomplete information does not prove a flaw exists. There exists other explanations, such as the author/designer choosing to not insult our intelligence and waste space with distractions.

[killem2]

The problem is that you are looking at this from a reverse perspective to how it should be looked at. You are saying "Well Shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so reality is flawed." When you should be saying "Well shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so my theory must have something missing."

I think environment also plays a big obstacle in the way they work.

[atemu1234]

The problem is that you are looking at this from a reverse perspective to how it should be looked at. You are saying "Well Shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so reality is flawed." When you should be saying "Well shadows should reproduce without limit, but they don't so my theory must have something missing."

Patently false. There are no limitations given in first-party content that would stop this, therein reality IS flawed.

Your argument assumes I have done insufficient reading and there IS an answer. There is not, and no fallacy is actually present. Save your "fallacy" fallacy, of course.

[Incanur]

The shadowpoclypse argument is just a variant of the "I am so much smarter than Tolkien: eagles." argument.

Not so much. It's more an example of unintended consequences and the potency of exponential increase and incorporeality. Does you seriously think 3.x designers understood the implications of shadows and other spawn-creating incorporeal undead?

By contrast, Tolkien's giant eagles can't simply destroy the ring because a) they might have be tempted by it, b) the Nazgul would have noticed and intervened, and c) they were servants of Manwë and thus weren't inclined to solve all mortal problems any more than Manwë was inclined to personally deal with Sauron.

[ace rooster]

Patently false. There are no limitations given in first-party content that would stop this, therein reality IS flawed.

Your argument assumes I have done insufficient reading and there IS an answer. There is not, and no fallacy is actually present. Save your "fallacy" fallacy, of course.

There are no explicit limitations, but the DMG gives rules for settlements not overrun with undead in the section dealing with setting, (which trumps tactical rules when dealing with large scale effects) so implicitly there is some limitation.

[1pwny]

People, its all very simple. If you're looking for how logic and high levels of intelligence and creativity fare in D&D, look at the Tippyverse. :smallsmile:

As for the Shadows taking over the world...

Shadows lurk in dark places, waiting for living prey to happen by.
So why would they go and take over a town? But more importantly,

Organization: Solitary, gang (2–5), or swarm (6–11)

Organization
This line describes the kinds of groups the creature might form. A range of numbers in parentheses indicates how many combat-ready adults are in each type of group. Many groups also have a number of noncombatants, expressed as a percentage of the fighting population. Noncombatants can include young, the infirm, slaves, or other individuals who are not inclined to fight.
Ergo, by SRD, due to the fact that the Shadows are not given a percentage of fighting individuals, that means that even if the Shadows took over a country and became a giant swarm, there would only be, at most, 11 of them that would want to fight. :smalltongue:

Go RAW! Using dysfunctional rules to stop abuse of other dysfunctional rules! :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Ergo, by SRD, due to the fact that the Shadows are not given a percentage of fighting individuals, that means that even if the Shadows took over a country and became a giant swarm, there would only be, at most, 11 of them that would want to fight. :smalltongue:

Go RAW! Using dysfunctional rules to stop abuse of other dysfunctional rules! :smallbiggrin:
There would be 11 of them that would want to fight per encounter. An adventuring party might consist of 4 people, but it doesn't mean there are no other adventurers anywhere.

[1pwny]

Are you sure? Aww... and I was so confidant that even bragged to my younger brother... :smallfrown:

[beforemath]

So why would they go and take over a town? But more importantly,



Organization
This line describes the kinds of groups the creature might form. A range of numbers in parentheses indicates how many combat-ready adults are in each type of group. Many groups also have a number of noncombatants, expressed as a percentage of the fighting population. Noncombatants can include young, the infirm, slaves, or other individuals who are not inclined to fight.


Ergo, by SRD, due to the fact that the Shadows are not given a percentage of fighting individuals, that means that even if the Shadows took over a country and became a giant swarm, there would only be, at most, 11 of them that would want to fight. :smalltongue:


This would actually make sense, considering how shadows procreate. From a predator standpoint, the most likely targets are the young, old, and infirm (i.e. easy targets). If a shadow predominantly preys on this group of people, his progeny would be mostly young, old, or infirm (i.e. noncombatants). Apparently, becoming a shadow doesn't make a creature any more combat-able.

Of course, that would mean that nurseries, hospitals, and battlegrounds (after dark) would be very frightening/dangerous places... :smalleek:

[eggynack]

Patently false. There are no limitations given in first-party content that would stop this, therein reality IS flawed.

Your argument assumes I have done insufficient reading and there IS an answer. There is not, and no fallacy is actually present. Save your "fallacy" fallacy, of course.
You are mistaken. While there is nothing intrinsic to shadows, apart from silliness involving organization size, that would cause shadows to be incapable of massing, you've ignored the fact that D&D 3.5 is a high power environment. You're arbitrarily imagining a situation in which shadows just keep increasing in number until they're impossible to stop, but the truth is, there is no population of shadows, maxing out at, say, a tenth the population of the planet in question, that cannot be stopped by a sufficiently high power creature or set of creatures (the number can likely go higher without being impossible to stop, but I'd rather not end up with actual infinities opposed by some high magic selectively wiping out all shadows).

There are ways to become immune to just about everything a shadow can do, and there are ways to kill shadows in a reasonably quick and efficient manner. Moreover, as the population of shadows increases, so too will the population of creatures that want to put a stop to them, topping out at casters with 9th's, epic level casters, or deities, depending on demographics and cosmology (also taking into account monsters of similar power level). You say there are no limits, but this is the limit, and it's very much a part of the game.

[Psyren]

Patently false. There are no limitations given in first-party content that would stop this, therein reality IS flawed.

Deities, organizations, and population tables are all first-party content.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was mostly thinking about a shadow who desperately wants to avoid creating spawn, maybe because he wants to avert the shadowpocalypse, but despite his best possible efforts, all of his limited mental acuity applied to the problem, he still fails the vast majority of the time. He just wants to lead a stable and solitary existence, and it's nearly impossible. Perhaps 6 intelligence is just smart enough to recognize the ramifications of his actions, but just dumb enough that he can't possibly do anything to avert them.

Or maybe because, every time...let's call him Slim Shady...every time Slim Shady goes to get a bite to eat, another Slim Shady pops up. This isn't so bad, except that the world is a mystery to the new Slim Shady, and he...never...stops...asking...questions.

Real Slim Shady: Hey, could you please stop following me around.

Fake Slim Shady: Wait, I'm following you around? I thought I was supposed to do this....

Real Slim Shady: No, really, it's okay if you stop.

Fake Slim Shady: So, if I stop following you around, and then I get hungry, I just find some person wandering around alone and ....what do I do again?

Real Slim Shady: You eat them.

Fake Slim Shady: Wow. That's incredibly convenient. They're like walking Happy Meals...Wow, look at that sunrise. I wonder what makes the sky turn all orange and red like that....

Real Slim Shady: I think it's something having to do with the angle with which the light is colliding with particles in the atmosphere. Either that or Pelor is angry....

Fake Slim Shady: You're great, Slim. When I grow up I wanna be just like you.

Real Slim Shady: *trying to work out if he can throttle another incorporeal creature* Sorry, what did you...no, never mind, just shut up.

[Khatoblepas]

There are ways to become immune to just about everything a shadow can do, and there are ways to kill shadows in a reasonably quick and efficient manner.

Does this mean.... that Soulborns have an actual use? CE Soulborns are immune to Strength damage, drain and penalties at level 2, and there must be plenty of them out of there. If a CE Soulborn decides "I don't want the Shadow Apocalypse", they could wade into the middle of a shadow-imperiled village and...

Well, Soulborns can't exactly do much. But give them some kind of magical attack form and they could eventually rid an entire city of Shadows without once getting hurt. Maybe Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle)?

[Phelix-Mu]

Omg...CE Soulborns are like the ultimate predator for shadows. That is disturbing.

[eggynack]

Does this mean.... that Soulborns have an actual use? CE Soulborns are immune to Strength damage, drain and penalties at level 2, and there must be plenty of them out of there. If a CE Soulborn decides "I don't want the Shadow Apocalypse", they could wade into the middle of a shadow-imperiled village and...

Well, Soulborns can't exactly do much. But give them some kind of magical attack form and they could eventually rid an entire city of Shadows without once getting hurt. Maybe Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle)?
I guess, yeah. I mean, there are obviously more efficient ways of wiping out shadows en masse, but if all you have is perfect immunity, a weak attack, and a bunch of time on your hands, eventually I suppose you'd stop the apocalypse. The only real question is whether the shadows can reproduce faster than you can kill them, because ideally you're stopping them before they kill everyone. I think a core assumption here is that the shadows have gone unnoticed for a bit, and are thus somewhat massed already, so it could be tricky. Putting together a small soulborn army could be a good idea though.

[Fax Celestis]

Omg...CE Soulborns are like the ultimate predator for shadows. That is disturbing.

Too bad, then, that they're more likely to buddy up considering their alignment.

[Flickerdart]

Are you sure? Aww... and I was so confidant that even bragged to my younger brother... :smallfrown:
If you went by the Organization heading as an absolute measure of combat-ready individuals in a creature type, the Blood War would be depressing and sad, given that of the literally infinite demons that exist, you'd only have something like 3-6 of each type show up to fight.

[Shining Wrath]

How many deities would pick up an impending Shadow / Wight infestation on their portfolio sense?

How many of those have at least one cleric of sufficient level who can reach the area within a few days?

Since greater deities have portfolio sense operating weeks in advance, I suspect that most events of this sort would find a cleric of Pelor or Moradin (etc) in place and waiting to nip them in the bud.

Even We Jas might position one of her servants as these undead would not be created lawfully.

EDIT: Other deities might act to *permit* the apocalypse - but then you've taken it out of "RAW regarding shadows is borked" and into "We don't have RAW to solve a conflict of two or more deities each operating within their portfolio".

[Vogonjeltz]

Patently false. There are no limitations given in first-party content that would stop this, therein reality IS flawed.

Your argument assumes I have done insufficient reading and there IS an answer. There is not, and no fallacy is actually present. Save your "fallacy" fallacy, of course.

Well they are limited to laying in wait in dark places. And as mentioned: clerics are kind of a thing

[AMFV]

Patently false. There are no limitations given in first-party content that would stop this, therein reality IS flawed.

But first party content does not define the entirety of reality, they leave very deliberate gaps for the DM to fill in.



Your argument assumes I have done insufficient reading and there IS an answer. There is not, and no fallacy is actually present. Save your "fallacy" fallacy, of course.

That was not my intention, I'm sorry if it came across like that. My suggestion was rather that this was a deliberate gap in the material provided whereby DM's could create their own answers and use such to drive plotlines. I certainly would if players started asking about. That was what I was getting at. There has to be a reason it's not that way, and that's up to the individual designing the setting to produce.

[Khatoblepas]

Too bad, then, that they're more likely to buddy up considering their alignment.

Chaotic Evil characters? Teaming up? Sounds pretty unlikely. What if the Soulborn had an idea for a non-shadow related scenario for watching the world burn? What if he didn't instigate the Shadow Apocalypse? What if he actually likes people (as much as a CE person can like their friends and people - they can be ruthless and unpredictable, but that doesn't preclude liking people), and doesn't want to spend the rest of eternity hanging out with the shadows of everyone he likes? What if he just plain hates the undead?

There are plenty of reasons why a CE Soulborn might want to stop the Shadow Apocalypse. Heck, a Soulborn might want to single handedly stop the Apocalypse because you told him he'd want to buddy up with the shadows.

"NOBODY TELLS ME WHAT TO DO! NOT EVEN WHEN THEY TOLD ME TAKING SOULBORN WAS A BAD IDEA! WHO'S LAUGHING NOW, EH? WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!?"

[Fax Celestis]

How many of those have at least one cleric of sufficient level who can reach the area within a few days?

All of them. Getting their cleric there is a simple matter of miracle.

[Shining Wrath]

All of them. Getting their cleric there is a simple matter of miracle.

Rhetorical question is rhetorical. But thanks for your support. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

But first party content does not define the entirety of reality, they leave very deliberate gaps for the DM to fill in.



That was not my intention, I'm sorry if it came across like that. My suggestion was rather that this was a deliberate gap in the material provided whereby DM's could create their own answers and use such to drive plotlines. I certainly would if players started asking about. That was what I was getting at. There has to be a reason it's not that way, and that's up to the individual designing the setting to produce.

It's not even a gap, assuming we're talking published settings and not fanwank homebrew, which can have any number of explanations.

[ace rooster]

All of them. Getting their cleric there is a simple matter of miracle.

Sure, if they are pulling out the level 9 spells then you can nip these things in the bud fairly fast (and given that the problem can double every 30 seconds they really need to), but any level 3 necromancer with fell drain can create a wight (by accident as well as by design). A human with metamagic school focus (conjuration) can do it at level 1 (though at this point lacks any method of controlling it). A fully charged wand of fell drain acid splash costs only 4500gp, which means one with 10 charges only costs 900gp. These are not the sort of threats that should require level 9 spells, or direct intervention of a deity.

In order for clerics to be on top of the threat they need to be really on the ball; As in be on the spot within 5 rounds of a wight appearing in any crowded location. After that there will be wights more than 200ft apart and their numbers will be growing exponentially. The alternative is to hit every target before it even becomes a threat, and you are talking police state.

I am not a fan of direct intervention holding back these type of effects, because it generally requires the threat to be completely wiped out with overwhelming force. That doesn't leave a lot of room for adventurers to face CR appropriate threats, and limits the tools that players can use safely (you cast enervation and the churches would wipe you off the map. They know because they have to know in order for them to stop deliberate threats).

[Fax Celestis]

Sure, if they are pulling out the level 9 spells then you can nip these things in the bud fairly fast (and given that the problem can double every 30 seconds they really need to), but any level 3 necromancer with fell drain can create a wight (by accident as well as by design).It was asked how a god could get a cleric to the encounter. Have you seen the stats for gods? They pretty much all have miracle.

[eggynack]

]
In order for clerics to be on top of the threat they need to be really on the ball; As in be on the spot within 5 rounds of a wight appearing in any crowded location. After that there will be wights more than 200ft apart and their numbers will be growing exponentially. The alternative is to hit every target before it even becomes a threat, and you are talking police state.
That's not really accurate. In particular, while the shadows will experience exponential growth for a decent amount of time, that growth will seriously plateau off once, y'know, everyone is dead. After that, the shadows will have to migrate over to another population center, which takes some time, and in that time, clericsplosion. Sure, you end up with a dead population center, and that's a tragedy, but it's not the destruction of the world. Meanwhile, for really big population centers, the area probably already has powerful beings with a vested interest in that area's safety.

[Flickerdart]

After that, the shadows will have to migrate over to another population center, which takes some time, and in that time, clericsplosion.
The key part here isn't that it will take time - it's that the area the shadows are going through will no doubt contain any of the other ridiculously powerful monsters in the MM, and given that the shadows aren't smart enough not to pick fights, their numbers will be heavily depleted by the first thing they find that can strike at incroporeal foes.

[eggynack]

The key part here isn't that it will take time - it's that the area the shadows are going through will no doubt contain any of the other ridiculously powerful monsters in the MM, and given that the shadows aren't smart enough not to pick fights, their numbers will be heavily depleted by the first thing they find that can strike at incroporeal foes.
I think the really key part is that there are lots of key parts. Some settings might deal with shadowpocalypses through the existence of nearby dragons eating them, and some might do it through active gods porting in clerics whenever there are too many shadows, and some may require the clerics to travel to the shadows themselves, thus relying on time, and some might just rely on a reasonably thriving culture of adventurers, able to be hired whenever monsters get out of hand. This is a problem with a lot of solutions, and only one of them has to be present in a given campaign setting for common sense to return.

[AMFV]

I think the really key part is that there are lots of key parts. Some settings might deal with shadowpocalypses through the existence of nearby dragons eating them, and some might do it through active gods porting in clerics whenever there are too many shadows, and some may require the clerics to travel to the shadows themselves, thus relying on time, and some might just rely on a reasonably thriving culture of adventurers, able to be hired whenever monsters get out of hand. This is a problem with a lot of solutions, and only one of them has to be present in a given campaign setting for common sense to return.

And there could even be solutions invented for plot reasons. Maybe they're all being pulled to the Shadow plane for some nefarious purpose. To fuel Dr. Nefarious' Shadow Powered Doomsday Device, or what-not. There are tons of amazing possibilities for this. It's actually why gaps like this are to me one of the funnest parts of the game, because you get to come up with anything from an almost infinite list of solutions.

[ace rooster]

It was asked how a god could get a cleric to the encounter. Have you seen the stats for gods? They pretty much all have miracle.

If the DM is having to pull divine intervention on my level 1 human wizard without flaws or any serious cheese, I'm calling shenanigans. :smalltongue:

I quoted that passage as representitive of the whole discussion on clerics preventing it all going to pot. Wasn't really directed at your post specifically.



That's not really accurate. In particular, while the shadows will experience exponential growth for a decent amount of time, that growth will seriously plateau off once, y'know, everyone is dead. After that, the shadows will have to migrate over to another population center, which takes some time, and in that time, clericsplosion. Sure, you end up with a dead population center, and that's a tragedy, but it's not the destruction of the world. Meanwhile, for really big population centers, the area probably already has powerful beings with a vested interest in that area's safety.


Once a coordinated response is mustered they can be dealt with, but within the first 10 mins you can end up with thousands. Even for powerful beings that is very difficult to control (Think 28 weeks later. Pretty much everyone in that film had a machine gun, and they still could not control it, even with contingency plans). Remember that controlling it means preventing them getting to civilians, rather than just killing lots of them. It is pretty much game over for even a large population center with 20% of the population able to take on a wight. It is not the end of the world, but it is a massive concern for any population center, especially if a relatively nearby center suddenly spawned thousands of wights. Once you start throwing on some malice and the ability to teleport, every level 9 caster becomes a potential city killer. Cities would not last long without a cleric every 120ft ready to destroy any invaders.

I'm not saying that churches couldn't do it, just that they would have to be seriously committed to make it work. That level of commitment has serious consequeces for the viability of any necromancy in the setting. I regard this as problem, and prefer more suptle ways of avoiding undead explosions.

[eggynack]

And there could even be solutions invented for plot reasons. Maybe they're all being pulled to the Shadow plane for some nefarious purpose. To fuel Dr. Nefarious' Shadow Powered Doomsday Device, or what-not. There are tons of amazing possibilities for this. It's actually why gaps like this are to me one of the funnest parts of the game, because you get to come up with anything from an almost infinite list of solutions.
Definitely true. I tend to find that the best sorts of things for supporting a fanbase are works which have a large quantity of ideas and stuff that are full of flaws, holes, and gaps.


Once you start throwing on some malice and the ability to teleport, every level 9 caster becomes a potential city killer. Cities would not last long without a cleric every 120ft ready to destroy any invaders.

A level 9 caster is capable of destroying a city without high power defenders in any number of ways. The wightpocalypse is a classic for a reason, but so is stuff like blizzard or control winds. As a result, this is really a problem with casters more than it is a problem with creatures that can self-propagate with relative ease, and the solution tends to be that the actual rulers of most cities tend to be either magical, or tend to have a good amount of magic defense.

[atemu1234]

Deities, organizations, and population tables are all first-party content.

1. Organization, by SRD, says "many", not all.
2. God's of undead would step in to stop the genocide of their chosen people.
3. Think of population stats like a program. The program isn't running, therein it does not progress to the inevitable end.

[AMFV]

1. Organization, by SRD, says "many", not all.
2. God's of undead would step in to stop the genocide of their chosen people.
3. Think of population stats like a program. The program isn't running, therein it does not progress to the inevitable end.

1.) Well that's true, you could have different size groups of shadows. But the world isn't overrun by them, as per the settings at least most of the ones I've seen. perhaps they rapidly starve to death.

2.) Gods of the Undead tend to be rather uncaring, and take a very, very long view of things. Sure the Clerics will wipe out most of the shadows, but some will survive. And survival is the key aspect here for most of them, survival even beyond death.

3.) Populations in the real world also tend to grow at an exponential rate, till they stop. They tend to stabilize off. There is no reason to suspect, particularly with external controls that the Shadow population wouldn't behave the same way. And there could be numerous reasons why this would not happen.

4.) As we've pointed out most settings don't have this as a feature, so this is definitely something that could be explored. Maybe, something bigger and scarier is eating the shadows and hiding in the... well, shadows. Maybe they're destroying each other because the forces of chaos are increasing (Death Slaad make for some really amazing opponents). Maybe they're limited for some other reason that could be a plot point. Interesting inconsistencies make for great plot points, if your players notice them, then you can focus the plot on them, to make the world seem more real, if they don't then you don't need to.

[Psyren]

1. Organization, by SRD, says "many", not all.

By "organizations" I meant groups of entities in D&D settings that have a vested interest in not standing around picking their noses while things go to pot. Harpers, Paragnostic Assembly, Order of Illumination, Shadow Guard etc.



2. God's of undead would step in to stop the genocide of their chosen people.

No, they wouldn't. Or rather, they would make sure some shadows survived the purge, but they would not have any kind of investment in saving any specific pawns. That's the pattern for these things - the good guys triumph and defeat the evil plot, and evil moves on to the next scheme rather than repeatedly trying the same thing.



3. Think of population stats like a program. The program isn't running, therein it does not progress to the inevitable end.

Until you find a "program" that replaces every row with "Shadows", then what you are talking isn't D&D, it is "atemu's undead are awesome and the gods are useless Roleplaying Game."

[eggynack]

But the world isn't overrun by them, as per the settings at least most of the ones I've seen. perhaps they rapidly starve to death.

I think the real solution is that shadows just don't go into big cities. They're shadows, after all. That means they live in their dark cave, and they stay in their dark cave, even in the night (the outside becomes day eventually, after all, while their cave is in perpetual night), and they only hunt down what few unfortunate souls pass by their cave. There can also be other dark things that are not caves, but those not caves are also likely not cities.

Thus, the real question of this thread is why casters don't rule the world, because casters would be the primary reason for shadows to leave their caves, and the answer is that they probably should, at least to some extent. Either that, or the high powered and dangerous wizards are heavily opposed by powerful forces. It could also be a mix of the two, or some third thing, like caster incompetence. My suspicion, then, is that we're directing our arguments in the wrong direction, and that the solution is something akin to the Tippyverse.

[atemu1234]

Until you find a "program" that replaces every row with "Shadows", then what you are talking isn't D&D, it is "atemu's undead are awesome and the gods are useless Roleplaying Game."

I was referring to the campaign settings as a program that isn't being executed yet, thus making all the fluff possible and everything existing UNTIL IT IS RUN AND DUE TO LACK OF A LIMITING FACTOR CAUSES SHADOWS TO OVERRUN EVERYTHING.

Gods of Undead might not step in, I'll grant you that, but a god's power is limited by its stats (if it's statted, it can die, anyone?) and by the time they notice shadows amassing enough power, or assume innocuous shadows are a tangible threat to its people, then there are too many for the gods to handle.

What would a divine shadow look like, BTW? Something has to happen to those Divine Ranks.

And no sane DM, including myself, would ever allow shadows to overrun the game. Rather, I was pointing out again how silly the game itself would be without outside interpretation and houseruling. I wasn't advocating having shadows devour eberron or something (though that would be pretty badass).

[AMFV]

I think the real solution is that shadows just don't go into big cities. They're shadows, after all. That means they live in their dark cave, and they stay in their dark cave, even in the night (the outside becomes day eventually, after all, while their cave is in perpetual night), and they only hunt down what few unfortunate souls pass by their cave. There can also be other dark things that are not caves, but those not caves are also likely not cities.

Thus, the real question of this thread is why casters don't rule the world, because casters would be the primary reason for shadows to leave their caves, and the answer is that they probably should, at least to some extent. Either that, or the high powered and dangerous wizards are heavily opposed by powerful forces. It could also be a mix of the two, or some third thing, like caster incompetence. My suspicion, then, is that we're directing our arguments in the wrong direction, and that the solution is something akin to the Tippyverse.

The problem is that setting design runs two directions. You can start with the fluff of a setting and then attach the mechanics to it, as most settings do. Or you can do the reverse as the Tippyverse does. There are flaws with both approaches to be honest. The Tippyverse comes out with something that while logically coherent isn't necessarily standard fantasy fare. Whereas otherwise you can have standard fantasy fare, but you have to accept some incoherence. I personally don't mind it, I use it to fuel interesting stuff for the games I'm developing.

[eggynack]

Rather, I was pointing out again how silly the game itself would be without outside interpretation and houseruling.
And what I'm saying is, yes in a lot of cases, but no in this case. Seriously, you don't have to go that far to find places where the game needs outside interpretation and house ruling to make sense. Why are you using shadows, which are mentioned in the book as hanging out mostly in shadows, and which fold to a lot of things? Just say wall of salt, or candles of invocation, or a lot of things in the dysfunctional rules thread, or hell, even pun-pun. It's a lot simpler. Or don't, cause I just said them, and they're reasonably known cases.

[AMFV]

I was referring to the campaign settings as a program that isn't being executed yet, thus making all the fluff possible and everything existing UNTIL IT IS RUN AND DUE TO LACK OF A LIMITING FACTOR CAUSES SHADOWS TO OVERRUN EVERYTHING.

Gods of Undead might not step in, I'll grant you that, but a god's power is limited by its stats (if it's statted, it can die, anyone?) and by the time they notice shadows amassing enough power, or assume innocuous shadows are a tangible threat to its people, then there are too many for the gods to handle.

What would a divine shadow look like, BTW? Something has to happen to those Divine Ranks.

And no sane DM, including myself, would ever allow shadows to overrun the game. Rather, I was pointing out again how silly the game itself would be without outside interpretation and houseruling. I wasn't advocating having shadows devour eberron or something (though that would be pretty badass).

The game is silly without interpretation, because it isn't designed to be run without interpretation. You can design a game for that purpose, choose-your-own adventures, video games, are examples, this game was designed to be interpreted which is why they leave details out, to give the interpreters breathing room. Which is the problem with a logically consistent setting, you have a lot less breathing room than you might otherwise (and that's not necessarily terrible it's just less inherently customizable)

[Psyren]

Gods of Undead might not step in, I'll grant you that, but a god's power is limited by its stats (if it's statted, it can die, anyone?) and by the time they notice shadows amassing enough power, or assume innocuous shadows are a tangible threat to its people, then there are too many for the gods to handle.

This is quite literally impossible. Portfolio Sense extends months into the future for major deities. They will know what the shadows are up to long before it actually comes to pass, and they will know exactly where it will begin.



And no sane DM, including myself, would ever allow shadows to overrun the game. Rather, I was pointing out again how silly the game itself would be without outside interpretation and houseruling. I wasn't advocating having shadows devour eberron or something (though that would be pretty badass).

And again, you don't need to "houserule" to say that deities exist.

[Flickerdart]

Oh yeah, we're so totally screwed when there are too many CR3 enemies for post-epic creatures to deal with.

There's no quantity of Shadows that are any threat to a god.

Check it out: Undead Mastery SDA, "The deity can automatically command or destroy any undead creature, as desired, as a free action."

[atemu1234]

Oh yeah, we're so totally screwed when there are too many CR3 enemies for post-epic creatures to deal with.

There's no quantity of Shadows that are any threat to a god.

Check it out: Undead Mastery SDA, "The deity can automatically command or destroy any undead creature, as desired, as a free action."

Which would only be possessed by gods with undead in their portfolio. Who would therein not want them to be destroyed. Capability =/= actually doing something.

[Fax Celestis]

How about the part where any creature with DivR 0+ is immune to ability damage?

[Flickerdart]

Which would only be possessed by gods with undead in their portfolio. Who would therein not want them to be destroyed. Capability =/= actually doing something.
I'm not sure you understand gods.

A pantheon isn't just a bunch of frat bros who wield cosmic powers and screw around with mortals when they get bored. They work together to make the world function. When the world falls out of balance, the gods all have a vested interest in restoring that balance. If the god of undead doesn't want to fix it? Tough cookies, because every other god is going to show up and ask nicely, and if the god of undead refuses, they will pound him into the ground and give the portfolio to someone reasonable like Kelemvor.

Like, same pantheon as that god of undead, there's a god of persuasion and diplomacy, and that god isn't going to like his worshipers getting murdered. He's a very convincing god by design. When he goes to talk to the god of undead about his domain being out of control, things get sorted out.

This is why D&D works. Not because the system makes any sense, but because there are super-powered jerks the DM controls who make sure things go as they are supposed to. Medieval stasis? Gods. People are still alive? Gods. Drow somehow haven't exterminated themselves despite having the stupidest society? Gods.

[Psyren]

Which would only be possessed by gods with undead in their portfolio. Who would therein not want them to be destroyed. Capability =/= actually doing something.

The ones who don't have that can just blanket the area in force spells, or sunburst, or turn undead etc.


This is why D&D works. Not because the system makes any sense, but because there are super-powered jerks the DM controls who make sure things go as they are supposed to. Medieval stasis? Gods. People are still alive? Gods. Drow somehow haven't exterminated themselves despite having the stupidest society? Gods.

This. It might not be the most "zip bang Tippy wahey!" answer, but it is the correct answer.

[atemu1234]

A pantheon isn't just a bunch of frat bros who wield cosmic powers and screw around with mortals when they get bored.

Actually, that's basically what they are, at least in classical mythology.

Gods of Undead, who would be the ones using that ability, have no reason not to extend their power by letting the undead overwhelm the planes. Why? Same reason Corellon Larethion (no idea how to spell his name, so I'll stick with that. Sorry.) wouldn't go out and slaughter moon elves, even if they posed a threat to the nearby human kingdom. But that human kingdom has their own god to cover them, right? Well, it's not the same issue with Shadows. Why? Even if the gods go out and try to kick the shadows' asses, they won't stop it soon enough.

Gods who can do something won't, because it's not in their best interest to do so.

Come to think of it, a chaotic evil one might simply because it's more interesting, to watch mortals fight each other rather than watch a swarm of shadows overtake the planes and then sit there with an inescapable craving (which, while not killing them, would be a pain).

Either way, I didn't start this thread with the purpose of arguing that it would break the game insomuch as to satirically point out the uselessness of the rules without DM addition/interpretation.

[eggynack]

Are we seriously entertaining this argument? If deities are involved in a fight with shadows, maybe even of the DR 0 variety, the deities will win. They don't need the specific undead killing mode either. They just win, because deities can alter the fabric of reality, and shadows can't. The same is also true of high level casters, to a lesser extent. We can keep aligning the most ludicrously powerful things against these shadows, just because it's vaguely amusing to do so, but it's not at all necessary.

[Psyren]

Either way, I didn't start this thread with the purpose of arguing that it would break the game insomuch as to satirically point out the uselessness of the rules without DM addition/interpretation.

You keep throwing in that "DM addition/interpretation" bit as though gods are somehow not part of D&D otherwise. That is not how it works. The DM has to remove the gods (usually by running a custom setting), not add them.

[atemu1234]

You keep throwing in that "DM addition/interpretation" bit as though gods are somehow not part of D&D otherwise. That is not how it works. The DM has to remove the gods (usually by running a custom setting), not add them.

They are first party, and therein part of the game, and part of the campaign setting. They exist.

I'm saying the ones with the Divine Ability to control or destroy undead wouldn't. That isn't removing gods, that's pointing out a logical conclusion. Someone, once in power, will always try to increase their power. Therein it is followed to its logical conclusion.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, that's basically what they are, at least in classical mythology.
Yeah, not so much. The myths follow the gods as characters, but the premise is a religion based on the fact that Zeus is the guy making thunder right now. Zeus slags off, no thunder. Zeus overdoes it with the thunder and starts blowing things up, and the other gods are going to stop him.



Gods of Undead, who would be the ones using that ability, have no reason not to extend their power by letting the undead overwhelm the planes. Why? Same reason Corellon Larethion (no idea how to spell his name, so I'll stick with that. Sorry.) wouldn't go out and slaughter moon elves, even if they posed a threat to the nearby human kingdom.
Corellon Larethian is allied with many human gods, including Pelor. He is also a Good-aligned preserver god, and is interested in not letting the elven population get so out of hand that they have to shed blood in order to live, if only because such a population boom would threaten the natural habitats in which elves live. Hell, there's a reason Corellon created the elves with long lifespans and slow maturation - he didn't want them to mob the place.

Corellon wouldn't murder his creations, but he would use his influence to stem the tide long before it became a problem.

The gods are millenia-old administrators with prescient knowledge of their domain, not college students who wake up and remember that there's an exam in 30 minutes.

Your argument about "increasing power" makes no sense for the same reason that the nations of the world aren't constantly at war with one another. Conflict is bad for everybody. Stick to your domain, don't threaten your colleagues' domains, and things are fine. Get out of hand, and you will be dealt with.

[atemu1234]

Yeah, not so much. The myths follow the gods as characters, but the premise is a religion based on the fact that Zeus is the guy making thunder right now. Zeus slags off, no thunder. Zeus overdoes it with the thunder and starts blowing things up, and the other gods are going to stop him.


Corellon Larethian is allied with many human gods, including Pelor. He is also a Good-aligned preserver god, and is interested in not letting the elven population get so out of hand that they have to shed blood in order to live, if only because such a population boom would threaten the natural habitats in which elves live. Hell, there's a reason Corellon created the elves with long lifespans and slow maturation - he didn't want them to mob the place.

Corellon wouldn't murder his creations, but he would use his influence to stem the tide long before it became a problem.

The gods are administrators with prescient knowledge of their domain, not college students who wake up and remember that there's an exam in 30 minutes.

That was supposed to be a metaphor.

The gods of undead wouldn't be killing undead, because it is in their best, evil interest to let them continue to multiply until the world is a hollow husk, the other gods die and they reign supreme.

[Psyren]

They are first party, and therein part of the game, and part of the campaign setting. They exist.

I'm saying the ones with the Divine Ability to control or destroy undead wouldn't. That isn't removing gods, that's pointing out a logical conclusion. Someone, once in power, will always try to increase their power. Therein it is followed to its logical conclusion.

You haven't addressed the many, many recourses available to good gods who need to wipe out masses of shadows before they become a problem.

[eggynack]

Why would the gods of undead need to be the gods killing undead? Sure, other gods don't have abilities that are exactly that pertinent, but they have, y'know, a lot of other abilities. For now, let's go with Pelor. Pelor doesn't particularly like undead, by my understanding. Pelor also has alter reality. Alter reality, if it's not obvious, alters reality. Pelor also has massive piles of spells and spell-likes. Pelor is Pelor. He has Pelor things. He can kill all the shadows.

[Flickerdart]

That was supposed to be a metaphor.

The gods of undead wouldn't be killing undead, because it is in their best, evil interest to let them continue to multiply until the world is a hollow husk, the other gods die and they reign supreme.
Yeah, and it's in the best interests of all the other gods to have that not happen, so they get rid of the uncooperative god and get a new one. Like what happened to Myrkul and Cyric. Seriously, do you even lore?

[Fax Celestis]

The multitude of nonevil gods of undeath would like a collective word with you.

[AMFV]

That was supposed to be a metaphor.

The gods of undead wouldn't be killing undead, because it is in their best, evil interest to let them continue to multiply until the world is a hollow husk, the other gods die and they reign supreme.

Yes, and even if the EVIL Gods have this plan they are likely to be subtle about it, waiting till the right moment, not blowing it with weak Shadows.

[atemu1234]

Yes, and even if the EVIL Gods have this plan they are likely to be subtle about it, waiting till the right moment, not blowing it with weak Shadows.

Nope. They'd look at it, see it makes them even more powerful and say yes. Because plans are FOR power.


Yeah, and it's in the best interests of all the other gods to have that not happen, so they get rid of the uncooperative god and get a new one. Like what happened to Myrkul and Cyric. Seriously, do you even lore?

No, I crunch.

[Flickerdart]

Nope. They'd look at it, see it makes them even more powerful and say yes. Because plans are FOR power.
See, this is something you keep missing.

Settings didn't just come into existence yesterday. All the turmoil and conflict? That happened when the world was being formed and the power balance was uneven. But like all systems, the conflict of the gods must reach a state of equilibrium, which persists (because gods, as immortal beings, are timeless and unchanging) for millenia.

If a god was powerful enough to spawn a bunch of shadows and make a power grab, it would have happened already. So you either have a setting where the only creatures are shadows, or a setting where the god of undeath was either not as stupid as you continue to insist, or was that stupid, and was killed by all the other gods, and then replaced with a less stupid one.


No, I crunch.
Anyone who thinks that one god can defeat the rest of them by using CR3 minions doesn't understand anything about D&D crunch.

[eggynack]

Nope. They'd look at it, see it makes them even more powerful and say yes. Because plans are FOR power.

Are you just going to ignore the fact that evil gods are not at all necessary to defeat an army of shadows? It seems somewhat pertinent.

[atemu1234]

Anyone who thinks that one god can defeat the rest of them by using CR3 minions doesn't understand anything about D&D crunch.

MY WAVE OF CR3 MOOKS WILL CRUSH YOU ALL!

I understand that you put anything, no matter how epic, against enough cannon fodder it will die. Or at least not be able to solve the problem.

The problem here isn't one you can swing a sword at. For every combatant there are ten noncombatants who will be converted into shadows. These shadows attack combatant, most of whom are too weak to do anything.

Let's say one in ten adventurers is ready for a CR 3 encounter (because most are simply lvl 1 PC classes or warriors, same diff) and one in every 100 is ready for dealing with more than one. By the time the one in ten can act, there are nine CR 3 monsters on his ass. Those that can handle the onslaught of nine of them? There are a 90 more waiting for him. If he can handle that? I'll keep using rule of ten. 990. 9990. It makes no difference, they are so far in the minority that we're looking at World War S (strained World War Z reference had to be made).

Also, the amount of damage done would do more than create too many mooks to handle. The number of people dead would stop any civilization from forming, technology would stagnate and we'd be in a dark age. All shadows dead? Just wait for a sorcerer or wizard to make more. It's inevitable and, more importantly, unstoppable.

[SiuiS]

I was looking through spawn-creating undead, and also looking at average levels for commoners as opposed to population, and can come to no reason why a shadow doesn't destroy the entire planet, simply because it can wipe out a small city, from which the plague spreads and devours another city. Adventurers are so rare, it doesn't make sense they could stop them all.

Vampires drink blood to survive, and when their enemies die, they become spawn. But they don't have the same issues because vampires are designed to limit growth, at least slightly.

Anyway, I want another opinion on this. Anyone got a reason this wouldn't happen?

You are forgetting common sense for shadows.

Undead can be lazy, unmotivated and narrow minded just like dead people or living people. Shadows don't swarm the world because that requires forethought that exceeds their malice (meaning they have to stop being jackasses long enough to come up with the idea) and they are shadows for a reason; they don't like light. They aren't going to go out into light. They find darkness soothing. Even moonlight and starlight are reviled. They're just not going to do it.

"But SiuiS," I hear people start. "There's no rules for this." So what? There's no damage or anything for them being in the light. There is no actual damage or mystical force keeping people from the dentist, either. But people don't like the dentist, so they don't go, even when they should and often when they need to. Why would shadows be any different?

[atemu1234]

You are forgetting common sense for shadows.

Undead can be lazy, unmotivated and narrow minded just like dead people or living people. Shadows don't swarm the world because that requires forethought that exceeds their malice (meaning they have to stop being jackasses long enough to come up with the idea) and they are shadows for a reason; they don't like light. They aren't going to go out into light. They find darkness soothing. Even moonlight and starlight are reviled. They're just not going to do it.

"But SiuiS," I hear people start. "There's no rules for this." So what? There's no damage or anything for them being in the light. There is no actual damage or mystical force keeping people from the dentist, either. But people don't like the dentist, so they don't go, even when they should and often when they need to. Why would shadows be any different?

Because there's this little thing called night? It happens every day? You may have heard of it? They don't care about starlight or moonlight, and more importantly their food source is right there...

Also, sorry about the edit. I made it before I saw you'd posted. Honest.

And they aren't unmotivated or lazy. You put the carrot that is mortal life force in front of them and you have death.

[Flickerdart]

MY WAVE OF CR3 MOOKS WILL CRUSH YOU ALL!

I understand that you put anything, no matter how epic, against enough cannon fodder it will die. Or at least not be able to solve the problem.

The problem here isn't one you can swing a sword at. For every combatant there are ten noncombatants who will be converted into shadows. These shadows attack combatant, most of whom are too weak to do anything.

Let's say one in ten adventurers is ready for a CR 3 encounter (because most are simply lvl 1 PC classes or warriors, same diff) and one in every 100 is ready for dealing with more than one. By the time the one in ten can act, there are nine CR 3 monsters on his ass. Those that can handle the onslaught of nine of them? There are a 90 more waiting for him. If he can handle that? I'll keep using rule of ten. 990. 9990. It makes no difference, they are so far in the minority that we're looking at World War S (strained World War Z reference had to be made).

Also, the amount of damage done would do more than create too many mooks to handle. The number of people dead would stop any civilization from forming, technology would stagnate and we'd be in a dark age. All shadows dead? Just wait for a sorcerer or wizard to make more. It's inevitable and, more importantly, unstoppable.
What the hell are you talking about? Killing shadows is definitely a problem you can swing a sword at, if that sword is +1 ghost-touch and wielded by a god. A god who can see ahead in time and won't be fighting a hundred shadows, or even ten shadows, but the one shadow he needs to kill in order to stop the whole mess.

[atemu1234]

What the hell are you talking about? Killing shadows is definitely a problem you can swing a sword at, if that sword is +1 ghost-touch and wielded by a god.

By the time that happens, the gods get over the celestial bureaucracy and do something, too many people are dead to recover. As I said, population decrease, society collapse, and this repeats itself every few years because some jerk with a magic wand decides he wants to make a shadow.

[eggynack]

I understand that you put anything, no matter how epic, against enough cannon fodder it will die. Or at least not be able to solve the problem.
That would be true, except it's not true at all. Shadows have tons of weaknesses that a good number of combatants can take advantage of. They only have a melee attack, and their flight speed isn't particularly massive, so keeping your distance and launching stuff at them can be effective. The only offense they have is strength damage, so anyone with immunity to that can face infinite shadows without going down. They have barely any sensory capability, especially when we're talking about high level folks, so a character using stealth resources could destroy them with limited recourse. Finally, while the shadows can't really hurt characters using these things, these characters can absolutely hurt shadows through various means. Thus, your claim here is just absolutely false, just like it was at the outset.

Edit: Also, if we're talking about a jerk with a wand, then you don't really have to kill infinite shadows at all. You just have to kill a jerk with a wand. Alternatively, something like command undead is pretty sweet here, theoretically capable of taking out most or all of the shadows in one go, but more likely to just swing the battle by a lot.

[atemu1234]

A god who can see ahead in time and won't be fighting a hundred shadows, or even ten shadows, but the one shadow he needs to kill in order to stop the whole mess.

I don't remember seeing in time as one of their abilities, and the spell for travelling through time may or may not cause a horrible time paradox.

And shadows will inevitably do this, because they are hungry...

It's a reflex for them, they kill, and that makes a shadow. Which makes another. And another. And also, just putting this out now, WBL you wouldn't get a ghost touch weapon until a later level than you'd be dead in the case of a shadowpocalypse. Also, again, celestial bureaucracy. If the gods get along, then you have a situation where an undead god wants to keep his people undead. If they don't those evil gods are too busy fighting the good ones for the good ones to get anything done without causing a dozen smaller apocalypses.

[atemu1234]

That would be true, except it's not true at all. Shadows have tons of weaknesses that a good number of combatants can take advantage of. They only have a melee attack, and their flight speed isn't particularly massive, so keeping your distance and launching stuff at them can be effective. The only offense they have is strength damage, so anyone with immunity to that can face infinite shadows without going down. They have barely any sensory capability, especially when we're talking about high level folks, so a character using stealth resources could destroy them with limited recourse. Finally, while the shadows can't really hurt characters using these things, these characters can absolutely hurt shadows through various means. Thus, your claim here is just absolutely false, just like it was at the outset.

Edit: Also, if we're talking about a jerk with a wand, then you don't really have to kill infinite shadows at all. You just have to kill a jerk with a wand. Alternatively, something like command undead is pretty sweet here, theoretically capable of taking out most or all of the shadows in one go, but more likely to just swing the battle by a lot.

It's not one jerk with a wand though. It's one every few years restarting the whole cycle.

Wizard makes shadow -> Shadow makes shadows who make shadows -> Wizard is killed -> Shadows are killed -> New wizard wants to make shadows for arcane experiment going inevitable awry -> see step two.

[Khatoblepas]

MY WAVE OF CR3 MOOKS WILL CRUSH YOU ALL!

I understand that you put anything, no matter how epic, against enough cannon fodder it will die. Or at least not be able to solve the problem.

The problem here isn't one you can swing a sword at. For every combatant there are ten noncombatants who will be converted into shadows. These shadows attack combatant, most of whom are too weak to do anything.

Let's say one in ten adventurers is ready for a CR 3 encounter (because most are simply lvl 1 PC classes or warriors, same diff) and one in every 100 is ready for dealing with more than one. By the time the one in ten can act, there are nine CR 3 monsters on his ass. Those that can handle the onslaught of nine of them? There are a 90 more waiting for him. If he can handle that? I'll keep using rule of ten. 990. 9990. It makes no difference, they are so far in the minority that we're looking at World War S (strained World War Z reference had to be made).

Also, the amount of damage done would do more than create too many mooks to handle. The number of people dead would stop any civilization from forming, technology would stagnate and we'd be in a dark age. All shadows dead? Just wait for a sorcerer or wizard to make more. It's inevitable and, more importantly, unstoppable.

You're forgetting that there are other, intelligent undead.

All you're guarenteeing, even with your rule that "Everything that can't resist a Shadow is going to be turned into a Shadow, no gods, no Miracles, no Clerics of Pelor kicking ass" is this:

A world where there is a Necropolitan boom, a world of the undead who rule, who carry on civilisation as it was before they died. Giant Necropoli. An interesting setting. I mean it's just strength damage. You're lucky if you wipe out all of the Humanoid races. There are still yet other races waiting to fill the void left by the Shadows. And it's probably other Undead.

Oh, and that one CE Soulborn who is the Last Man On Earth, and the lucky few that managed to escape into Dead Magic zones, losing the capacity for magic altogether. Maybe once a generation they are escorted, under heavy magical protection, to become part of the Undead Nation and live forever. Any mortal who steps outside of the dead magic zones are doomed.

Man, this actually sounds like a really interesting setting. This isn't The End of the World, it's the Beginning of a New Age.

[Psyren]

I don't remember seeing in time as one of their abilities, and the spell for travelling through time may or may not cause a horrible time paradox

I mentioned this ability earlier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense) but you seem to have a habit of ignoring my posts :P

[atemu1234]

You're forgetting that there are other, intelligent undead.

All you're guarenteeing, even with your rule that "Everything that can't resist a Shadow is going to be turned into a Shadow, no gods, no Miracles, no Clerics of Pelor kicking ass" is this:

A world where there is a Necropolitan boom, a world of the undead who rule, who carry on civilisation as it was before they died. Giant Necropoli. An interesting setting. I mean it's just strength damage. You're lucky if you wipe out all of the Humanoid races. There are still yet other races waiting to fill the void left by the Shadows. And it's probably other Undead.

Oh, and that one CE Soulborn who is the Last Man On Earth, and the lucky few that managed to escape into Dead Magic zones, losing the capacity for magic altogether. Maybe once a generation they are escorted, under heavy magical protection, to become part of the Undead Nation and live forever. Any mortal who steps outside of the dead magic zones are doomed.

Man, this actually sounds like a really interesting setting. This isn't The End of the World, it's the Beginning of a New Age.

I accept this as the situation of my argument's defeat. But that isn't civilization as D&D knows it. It's still apocalyptic.

[Fax Celestis]

What the hell are you talking about? Killing shadows is definitely a problem you can swing a sword at, if that sword is +1 ghost-touch and wielded by a god. A god who can see ahead in time and won't be fighting a hundred shadows, or even ten shadows, but the one shadow he needs to kill in order to stop the whole mess.

And who is literally immune to anything the shadows can do.

[atemu1234]

I mentioned this ability earlier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense) but you seem to have a habit of ignoring my posts :P

Ooh, this is an interesting quandry. Are they a threat until they get to the point at which they are, you know, a threat or are they a threat before then, no matter how long ago?

[Flickerdart]

By the time that happens, the gods get over the celestial bureaucracy and do something, too many people are dead to recover. As I said, population decrease, society collapse, and this repeats itself every few years because some jerk with a magic wand decides he wants to make a shadow.
What celestial bureaucracy? There isn't such a thing. Bros, remember? You said so yourself.

If it's too hard for you to understand that gods can kill CR3 opponents, perhaps we can resort to mundane magic.

Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm). A spell that affects 5026 square feet for a year, or 20,106 if Widened. Among its effects? Another spell can hang out there for a year's duration. Let's pick Consecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm). A useful effect under Consecrate? No undead may spawn within its area.

So every year, clerics of the super-rich and super-powerful churches that don't want to be wiped out go around and Hallow their cities. For bonus points, the church's god, if he has Alter Reality, can make any effect (such as the self-same Consecrate) permanent.

[atemu1234]

And who is literally immune to anything the shadows can do.

They may be immune, but it's not like the undead'll just swarm them. They have to hunt down the undead and do the attacking, which may slowly but surely end the threat, but that's after the damage is done.

[Flickerdart]

They may be immune, but it's not like the undead'll just swarm them. They have to hunt down the undead and do the attacking, which may slowly but surely end the threat, but that's after the damage is done.
After the damage is done? What part of "sees ahead in time" do you still not understand?

Just...go read Deities & Demigods. Like, even a page of it.

[eggynack]

It's not one jerk with a wand though. It's one every few years restarting the whole cycle.

Wizard makes shadow -> Shadow makes shadows who make shadows -> Wizard is killed -> Shadows are killed -> New wizard wants to make shadows for arcane experiment going inevitable awry -> see step two.
Bad stuff happens in the real world too, if you haven't noticed. Not exactly unrealistic. Every so often, some crazy guy might pop out of the woodwork, and despite the fact that he'll inevitably be killed for it, he'll try to wipe out some folks. Sometimes he'll succeed, because why not, and sometimes he'll fail, because so many reasons. It's not like this is the only way for casters to take out an area.

[Hazrond]

Too bad, then, that they're more likely to buddy up considering their alignment.

May i refer you to panel #5 of this page? :smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

[Fax Celestis]

They may be immune, but it's not like the undead'll just swarm them. They have to hunt down the undead and do the attacking, which may slowly but surely end the threat, but that's after the damage is done.

Your concept of divinity is sadly lacking in the omniscience department.

[atemu1234]

What celestial bureaucracy? There isn't such a thing. Bros, remember? You said so yourself.

If it's too hard for you to understand that gods can kill CR3 opponents, perhaps we can resort to mundane magic.

Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm). A spell that affects 5026 square feet for a year, or 20,106 if Widened. Among its effects? Another spell can hang out there for a year's duration. Let's pick Consecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm). A useful effect under Consecrate? No undead may spawn within its area.

So every year, clerics of the super-rich and super-powerful churches that don't want to be wiped out go around and Hallow their cities. For bonus points, the church's god, if he has Alter Reality, can make any effect (such as the self-same Consecrate) permanent.

Schrodinger's Cat. If they are, they are too chaotic to make action. If they are not chaotic, they cannot make an action quick enough due to the opposite problem. Either way.

Also, I dislike your implication I don't understand the god situation. Read above post, please.

Again, civilization as it is known would collapse. You couldn't encompass the entirety of a world with it without teamwork heretofor unseen in these planes, and you couldn't cover things you need to sustain a city, and there aren't enough magic people to create enough food. Gods could help, of course, if they weren't busy fighting monsters. The bunker runs out sometime.

[atemu1234]

Your concept of divinity is sadly lacking in the omniscience department.

No gods in D&D are truly omniscient. Not even in relation to their portfolio. Check the link posted above for details.

[Psyren]

Ooh, this is an interesting quandry. Are they a threat until they get to the point at which they are, you know, a threat or are they a threat before then, no matter how long ago?

To the living, they're always a threat. That's kind of what "inescapable craving" means.



Just...go read Deities & Demigods. Like, even a page of it.

This would make the discussion much easier. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

May i refer you to panel #5 of this page? :smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

I think this may have been a joke, but I feel the need to point out OOTS isn't standard D&D.

[Flickerdart]

Schrodinger's Cat. If they are, they are too chaotic to make action. If they are not chaotic, they cannot make an action quick enough due to the opposite problem. Either way.
What? No. That's not...that's not Schroedinger's Cat. That's not anything. Lawful creatures don't need to file forms to maintain balance. Chaotic creatures aren't crippled into doing nothing by their alignment. Neutral creatures exist.


Also, I dislike your implication I don't understand the god situation. Read above post, please.
I haven't seen any of your post address gods other than a concept of "celestial bureaucracy" that you made up.


Again, civilization as it is known would collapse. You couldn't encompass the entirety of a world with it without teamwork heretofor unseen in these planes, and you couldn't cover things you need to sustain a city, and there aren't enough magic people to create enough food. Gods could help, of course, if they weren't busy fighting monsters. The bunker runs out sometime.
You seem under the misapprehension that people will address this issue after it has happened and not, you know, before, thanks to the help of their creator gods who would be able to see into the future far enough to witness any problems that would wreck their new and precious creation, and then take steps to prevent it.

Like, when you give birth to a baby, you don't throw the baby into the street and then go "oops the baby was eaten by bears." You take steps to prevent bears from eating your baby by building a house around the baby before the bears start eating it, or are even on the horizon.

[atemu1234]

To the living, they're always a threat. That's kind of what "inescapable craving" means.



This would make the discussion much easier. :smalltongue:

By definition, things are not a threat to creatures until they are near enough to be a threat. A single shadow would create dozens of others before it becomes a wholesale "threat". It would not have the intention to end a race, but its effects would force it to.

To avoid going off topic, I'd like to point out that a god wouldn't be able to destroy enough shadows to stop it in the time frame presented. They sense it, they may go and stop it. But there are shadows being made constantly. It can even be assumed they already exist. They haven't been destroyed. It's already too late to stop, even if you have each deity in the book attack.

Also, I read the book. Quit implying I haven't.

[Flickerdart]

To avoid going off topic, I'd like to point out that a god wouldn't be able to destroy enough shadows to stop it in the time frame presented.
Teleport through time. Mortal magic. God does back in time to when there were few enough shadows for him to destroy the correct number, and then does.

[atemu1234]

What? No. That's not...that's not Schroedinger's Cat. That's not anything. Lawful creatures don't need to file forms to maintain balance. Chaotic creatures aren't crippled into doing nothing by their alignment. Neutral creatures exist.


I haven't seen any of your post address gods other than a concept of "celestial bureaucracy" that you made up.


You seem under the misapprehension that people will address this issue after it has happened and not, you know, before, thanks to the help of their creator gods who would be able to see into the future far enough to witness any problems that would wreck their new and precious creation, and then take steps to prevent it.

Like, when you give birth to a baby, you don't throw the baby into the street and then go "oops the baby was eaten by bears." You take steps to prevent bears from eating your baby by building a house around the baby before the bears start eating it, or are even on the horizon.

But the bureaucracy in question exists because of the conflicting interests. I'm not talking alignment, I'm talking by definition chaos. Too many conflicting opinions for anything to get done, or they are too busy literally fist-fighting to stop it. The gods do not exist in a vacuum. They will fight each other.

[Flickerdart]

But the bureaucracy in question exists because of the conflicting interests. I'm not talking alignment, I'm talking by definition chaos. Too many conflicting opinions for anything to get done, or they are too busy literally fist-fighting to stop it. The gods do not exist in a vacuum. They will fight each other.
Oh yeah, conflicting interests such as "shadows will eat all of our worshipers." Let's sit around and ponder that and maybe fist-fight one another some instead of just agreeing to go and force the god of undead to acquiesce.

It's a conflict of one guy versus all the other guys. That's not a hard conflict to sort out. As in the bear scenario, they wouldn't even have to wait for it to happen. Some 40 Int being will go "hang on buddy, your self-perpetuating death monsters there have a really good chance of screwing over every single one of us, you mind maybe making sure that doesn't happen, or we ice you?" And then the guy goes "yeah okay but if the literally infinite demons start overrunning the prime material, we go pound in whoever's in charge of portals" and then they all agree on an arrangement that doesn't ruin the world, and then they create the world like they discussed.

[eggynack]

Also, I read the book. Quit implying I haven't.
Cool. Then you must know that Pelor, who isn't the biggest fan of undead, has the capacity to cast any spell in the game as a standard action, and has perfect immunity against shadows. You must therefore further know that it'd be ridiculous to assert that shadows have anything like a chance against him, given how ridiculous spells are. Glad we're on the same page, so that we can finally move away from this ridiculous assertion.

[atemu1234]

Teleport through time. Mortal magic. God does back in time to when there were few enough shadows for him to destroy the correct number, and then does.

Wibbly-Wobbly, Timey-wimey.

The spell doesn't correct for a paradox. Who knows what happens? That spell isn't supported by any other written source, so there is no answer for that. If a god goes back and does that then they create a paradox.

Also, I believe I pointed out the shadows were constantly doing this by their very nature. There isn't a way to stop it because the gods themselves, while able to see it and interfere, and even able to create proxies, could not have enough to stop the constant threat of a mortal with a wand.

[Hazrond]

I think this may have been a joke, but I feel the need to point out OOTS isn't standard D&D.

It doesnt matter if its not standard, being of the same alignment =/= being best pals, in all likelihood the shadows would swarm the CE soulborn and follow him forever, attempting to kill him because he is the closest living thing and failing because he cant be hurt by them

[atemu1234]

Cool. Then you must know that Pelor, who isn't the biggest fan of undead, has the capacity to cast any spell in the game as a standard action, and has perfect immunity against shadows. You must therefore further know that it'd be ridiculous to assert that shadows have anything like a chance against him, given how ridiculous spells are. Glad we're on the same page, so that we can finally move away from this ridiculous assertion.

My assertion was that he cannot kill them all at once, so move on we shall.

[atemu1234]

It doesnt matter if its not standard, being of the same alignment =/= being best pals, in all likelihood the shadows would swarm the CE soulborn and follow him forever, attempting to kill him because he is the closest living thing and failing because he cant be hurt by them

They're intelligent, therein they wouldn't do that.

[Flickerdart]

There isn't a way to stop it because the gods themselves, while able to see it and interfere, and even able to create proxies, could not have enough to stop the constant threat of a mortal with a wand.
Hey, guess what.

Alter Reality (Body Outside Body) + Alter Reality (make Body Outside Body permanent) = infinite clones. Do it on a fast time plane and you have infinite clones really damn quick.

It's almost like gods are really smart and have better strategies than "run around punching things.

[atemu1234]

Oh yeah, conflicting interests such as "shadows will eat all of our worshipers." Let's sit around and ponder that and maybe fist-fight one another some instead of just agreeing to go and force the god of undead to acquiesce.

It's a conflict of one guy versus all the other guys. That's not a hard conflict to sort out. As in the bear scenario, they wouldn't even have to wait for it to happen. Some 40 Int being will go "hang on buddy, your self-perpetuating death monsters there have a really good chance of screwing over every single one of us, you mind maybe making sure that doesn't happen, or we ice you?" And then the guy goes "yeah okay but if the literally infinite demons start overrunning the prime material, we go pound in whoever's in charge of portals" and then they all agree on an arrangement that doesn't ruin the world, and then they create the world like they discussed.

Again, not all of them are worshipped. The book itself mentions that, as do other sources. Not all of them are worshipped by mortals. In fact, some are even gods of undead who would want them to continue existing to further there own power. Hence, bureaucracy.

[SiuiS]

Because there's this little thing called night? It happens every day? You may have heard of it?

Congratulations, you have mastered sarcasm. How unique amongst Internet defenses. It will take you far.

Look. Shadows crave absolute darkness. That's their thing. Yes, moonlight is a problem. Yes, starlight is a problem. Just as much as sunlight. And any 'carrot' outside of their 60' dark vision range isn't really a carrot, just like the money in your wallet, while valuable, has no value to me – no access, no reason to think about it, no nothing. It shall never be anything more than a mere monkey!



But let's assume for a minute that instead of just ignoring rationality for blind logic, you have an actual point. Heck, shadows even happen independently! Spontaneous generation of undead is a thing after all. But then, so is spontaneous generation of deathless.

So a shadow kills a man who is piously guarding others in a temple. He falls. He rises. The crypt warden distracts the shadows, cleaving into them with his Holy Smite (BoED p.168) and prays fervently for aid since it's intelligent (rules for divine intervention from DotF), allowing it's weapon to hit the shadows.

Pilgrims flee the zombie shadow outbreak, and some are struck down. Some, even, but time for others to flee by trying to put up a fight. A paladin, a holy warrior, a cleric, even a good aligned monk, all turn and pray they can distract the things for just six seconds more. They fall. Their body lies fallow; their spirit rises as a sacred watcher. They manifest, having died while others were in their care, to continue their charge. Their inherent positive energy easily overwhelms many shadows, tearing at their very fabric – in addition to whatever class features they once had, which are now usable in full. Suddenly, the ethereal is full of vengeful but righteous humanoids, and the shadow-pocalypse is ended at the hands of several multiclass Sacred Watcher chaos monk/spirit lion totem barbarians ripping through the hordes of darkness.


There. Nothing other than the already-existing and exact same mechanism as the shadow. Only better, oddly, because Good actually seems to value it's members. Shadowpocalypse averted by deathless.

[Flickerdart]

Again, not all of them are worshipped. The book itself mentions that, as do other sources. Not all of them are worshipped by mortals. In fact, some are even gods of undead who would want them to continue existing to further there own power. Hence, bureaucracy.
Most gods, and all the powerful gods, are worshipped by mortals (except Ao, but the FR god of undead is sensible). In a conflict, and at the negotiating table, they would best the others easily. Your point is moot.

[Fax Celestis]

My assertion was that he cannot kill them all at once, so move on we shall.

Yes he can. He can cast miracle or wish, and say, "I wish shadows didn't exist."

And then when every shadow ever disappears, he can go, "cool, more sunlight. I'm rad."

Except he doesn't even need to do that, because he has alter reality. Or could honestly just pop a seventeenth level slot or whatever for a genocide spell.

[Hazrond]

They're intelligent, therein they wouldn't do that.

they are intelligent, but STUPID, Int 6, they are probably stupid enough to think "Since everything else i keep hitting has died, if i keep hitting this guy he will die, im sure of it!"

[atemu1234]

"I wish shadows didn't exist."

You didn't exactly read the wording on wish, did you? It's effects are limited, as are its power. It would probably make shadows be called unicorns and have the same dystopia.

[atemu1234]

they are intelligent, but STUPID, Int 6, they are probably stupid enough to think "Since everything else i keep hitting has died, if i keep hitting this guy he will die, im sure of it!"

I'm not saying it would be fast, but I've seen people with serious mental disabilities be capable of telling that what they're doing isn't working. They aren't mindless, for gods' sake.

[SiuiS]

Alternately, and just for kicks, an irate wizard shape changes into a Radiant Dragon, uses some chicanery to get Widen Breath, casts Rebuking Breath, and infinitely widens it, unleashing a cone of blinding light ending all undeath on the planet below a certain HD threshold. Maybe a wish to get NI boost to their hit dice affected roll just to be sure it works.

[atemu1234]

Except he doesn't even need to do that, because he has alter reality. Or could honestly just pop a seventeenth level slot or whatever for a genocide spell.

Also, Alter Reality has limits too. Read it before just assuming it's ability is what it says on the tin. It can create creatures and spells.

Genocide has only been created in OOTS, so I can't really answer that.

[atemu1234]

Alternately, and just for kicks, an irate wizard shape changes into a Radiant Dragon, uses some chicanery to get Widen Breath, casts Rebuking Breath, and infinitely widens it, unleashing a cone of blinding light ending all undeath on the planet below a certain HD threshold. Maybe a wish to get NI boost to their hit dice affected roll just to be sure it works.

You kind of need to specify what they're doing to get those feats so I'm curious as to whether or not this is possible.

Also, again, they come back every few years. It's kind of difficult to stop completely.

[eggynack]

Also, Alter Reality has limits too. Read it before just assuming it's ability is what it says on the tin. It can create creatures and spells.
Alter reality can cast miracle. He can use miracle to do just about anything, at no cost, for he is the god that makes the decisions about whether this stuff works.

[Flickerdart]

You kind of need to specify what they're doing to get those feats so I'm curious as to whether or not this is possible.
Takes the Ritual of Rebirth to become Dragonborn, chooses the breath weapon aspect, qualifies to take feats normally.

[atemu1234]

Most gods, and all the powerful gods, are worshipped by mortals (except Ao, but the FR god of undead is sensible). In a conflict, and at the negotiating table, they would best the others easily. Your point is moot.

Again, not all are worshipped are mortals. Undead gods are worshipped by undead, at least in some cases, and it is in their interest to expand their power. I'm repeating this because you keep saying the same thing, the gods do not have as much an interest in saving mortals as you seem to think. My point stands.

Isn't this wonderful, though? Our conflicting opinions are proof the system is broken and open to interpretation, while I'm making us both hypocrites by having us throw in our interpretations while trying to show the system is broken from within without DMs, all while using my own interpretation.

I guess I'm done here for now. I've enjoyed this talk, and it was thought provoking.

[Flickerdart]

Again, not all are worshipped are mortals. Undead gods are worshipped by undead, at least in some cases, and it is in their interest to expand their power. I'm repeating this because you keep saying the same thing, the gods do not have as much an interest in saving mortals as you seem to think. My point stands.
What? No. I don't care that there's one or two gods out there worshipped by undead or outsiders or rocks. I said that most gods and all the powerful gods are worshipped by mortals. which gives them immense bargaining power when it comes to making sure mortals aren't wiped out, and that's true, and you can't weasel out of it. Your point doesn't stand at all.

Trying to argue that if a few gods don't care then no gods care is like trying to argue that if you don't care about, say, the McRib, then nobody does. The financial success of the McRib proves you wrong.

[SiuiS]

You kind of need to specify what they're doing to get those feats so I'm curious as to whether or not this is possible.

Also, again, they come back every few years. It's kind of difficult to stop completely.

I did specify what they're doing to get those feats; beig a high level wizard with chicanery. But sure!

Psychic revision
Familiar proximity dark chaos shuffle
Action point use
Heroism spell
Limited wish use
Summoning a dragon which has the power already and commanding it via gate or similar
Magic item that bestows feat on wearer
Divine intervention
Miracle


And, no, it's not a problem that starts up every few years. Because while the shadows die easily, the sacred watchers and crypt wardens don't. All it takes is one crypt warden to clean out a town with his infinite uses of holy smite, and a sacred watcher literally never has to stop moving ever, so could scour the world.


Face it, mate. The basic idea is flawed. You're working from the outcome and justifying it's existence, rather than working forward from an "outbreak".

[Khatoblepas]

Isn't this wonderful, though? Our conflicting opinions are proof the system is broken and open to interpretation, while I'm making us both hypocrites by having us throw in our interpretations while trying to show the system is broken from within without DMs, all while using my own interpretation.

Not... really? Seems like there's plenty of time for a God to see impending disaster and act on it.

Also, not all Undead want a Shadowpocalypse. What about Vampires? A Shadowpocalypse would literally decimate a Vampire's food source. In fact, every kind of Undead except Shadows don't want a Shadowpocalypse. So they'd pray to their God Of Undeath to do something about it.

Like it's an interesting concept but it just ain't gonna happen short of Gods literally upping and abandoning the world. Like I can see a single country being blighted with Shadows, but not an entire Crystal Sphere.

And talking of, this wouldn't even affect 0.0000001% of Prime Material Planes. It wouldn't even affect any of the Outer Planes, which are infinite and thus any attempt to infect them with Shadows would be futile.

[Flickerdart]

Like it's an interesting concept
I dunno man, "everything is shadows bar bar bar" doesn't strike me as an especially interesting concept.

[Suichimo]

Not... really? Seems like there's plenty of time for a God to see impending disaster and act on it.

Also, not all Undead want a Shadowpocalypse. What about Vampires? A Shadowpocalypse would literally decimate a Vampire's food source. In fact, every kind of Undead except Shadows don't want a Shadowpocalypse. So they'd pray to their God Of Undeath to do something about it.

And the God of Undeath answers the young Vampire's prayers with a single, booming word: "Nay!" The Vampire then goes to inform his people that they have been abandoned by their God. They all then turn to, until now, their most hated enemy, Pelor, God of the Sun. Pelor gladly takes the new found worship and smites down the Shadows. To show his gratitude to the Vampires, Pelor allows them to walk underneath the sun and forever be marked as heroes. The Vampires rejoiced and when the mortals saw the first daywalker there was a collective gasp. Several of them collapsed to their knees as they had a sudden glimpse into what the future had in store for them. All but one were mortified, the one was a small girl who ran up to the sparkling group and said "Someday, I shall make a movie about you." The girl was not let back in to town.

[Hazrond]

And the God of Undeath answers the young Vampire's prayers with a single, booming word: "Nay!" The Vampire then goes to inform his people that they have been abandoned by their God. They all then turn to, until now, their most hated enemy, Pelor, God of the Sun. Pelor gladly takes the new found worship and smites down the Shadows. To show his gratitude to the Vampires, Pelor allows them to walk underneath the sun and forever be marked as heroes. The Vampires rejoiced and when the mortals saw the first daywalker there was a collective gasp. Several of them collapsed to their knees as they had a sudden glimpse into what the future had in store for them. All but one were mortified, the one was a small girl who ran up to the sparkling group and said "Someday, I shall make a movie about you." The girl was not let back in to town.

And thus, a hatred spanning several generations was born. :smallbiggrin: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_(series))

[Psyren]

By definition, things are not a threat to creatures until they are near enough to be a threat. A single shadow would create dozens of others before it becomes a wholesale "threat". It would not have the intention to end a race, but its effects would force it to.

That's the point you keep missing. At the very moment they become a "threat," the god has known about it for weeks. And while a mortal evil could be handled with kid gloves like "oh, maybe there's a chance to redeem them or they haven't done anything wrong yet etc.," shadows get no such luxury. Wiping them out is a good act no matter what they have done. They do not belong in the material plane, they do not belong near the living, end of story. Their only hope is to stay out of Portfolio Sense by not doing the very thing you describe

Which brings us right back to "why haven't they done it?" Easy - all the ones that would have tried, got obliterated months ago. Every single time.


Also, I read the book. Quit implying I haven't.

Respectfully, you may need a reread.

[Hazrond]

And thus, a hatred spanning several generations was born. :smallbiggrin: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_(series))

You know, i wonder how many people found the hidden link before i brought it to their attention with this post?

[eggynack]

You know, i wonder how many people found the hidden link before i brought it to their attention with this post?
Can't say I did, which is a bit troubling for the whole idea, as it's a thing I obviously knew about (given that I posted in the relevant thread).

Edit: Then again, white text is inexplicably popular, possibly because it shows up when quoted, so emoticon links could catch on.

[Lans]

How many shadows can a 17th level wizard kill in 1 round?

[Phelix-Mu]

I think we can generalize the myriad methods to "a whole bunch."

I mean, if we involve WBL, minions, resettable traps, and energy transformation field, we could probably make most of the Prime uninhabitable for shadows, given enough time.

And I think it goes without saying that a wizard 17 could end a city-wide shadowpocalypse event without much effort.

[SiuiS]

How many shadows can a 17th level wizard kill in 1 round?

All of them.

This is not an exaggeration. A 17th level wizard can end all undeath in all the world that is below a certain HD threshold. A 17th level wizard can all by themselves end forever every undead being below 1/2 their own hit dice level.

[eggynack]

All of them.

This is not an exaggeration. A 17th level wizard can end all undeath in all the world that is below a certain HD threshold. A 17th level wizard can all by themselves end forever every undead being below 1/2 their own hit dice level.
What particular method are you using on that one?

[Shining Wrath]

Sure, if they are pulling out the level 9 spells then you can nip these things in the bud fairly fast (and given that the problem can double every 30 seconds they really need to), but any level 3 necromancer with fell drain can create a wight (by accident as well as by design). A human with metamagic school focus (conjuration) can do it at level 1 (though at this point lacks any method of controlling it). A fully charged wand of fell drain acid splash costs only 4500gp, which means one with 10 charges only costs 900gp. These are not the sort of threats that should require level 9 spells, or direct intervention of a deity.

In order for clerics to be on top of the threat they need to be really on the ball; As in be on the spot within 5 rounds of a wight appearing in any crowded location. After that there will be wights more than 200ft apart and their numbers will be growing exponentially. The alternative is to hit every target before it even becomes a threat, and you are talking police state.

I am not a fan of direct intervention holding back these type of effects, because it generally requires the threat to be completely wiped out with overwhelming force. That doesn't leave a lot of room for adventurers to face CR appropriate threats, and limits the tools that players can use safely (you cast enervation and the churches would wipe you off the map. They know because they have to know in order for them to stop deliberate threats).

Portfolio sense = weeks of advance notice. _Miracle_ was, I believe, a joke. Any deity who cares (which is a large subset of the Powers Divine) with a cleric of sufficient level (5?) can arrange to have a sufficient number of clerics travel by mundane means to the impending wight explosion. Or Paladins. Or non-clerical adherents who might be able to smack wights around, like a Monk with a Ghost Touch crystal in his hand wrappings.

That's right - given enough forewarning, a MONK can stop this.

[Shining Wrath]

I was referring to the campaign settings as a program that isn't being executed yet, thus making all the fluff possible and everything existing UNTIL IT IS RUN AND DUE TO LACK OF A LIMITING FACTOR CAUSES SHADOWS TO OVERRUN EVERYTHING.

Gods of Undead might not step in, I'll grant you that, but a god's power is limited by its stats (if it's statted, it can die, anyone?) and by the time they notice shadows amassing enough power, or assume innocuous shadows are a tangible threat to its people, then there are too many for the gods to handle.

What would a divine shadow look like, BTW? Something has to happen to those Divine Ranks.

And no sane DM, including myself, would ever allow shadows to overrun the game. Rather, I was pointing out again how silly the game itself would be without outside interpretation and houseruling. I wasn't advocating having shadows devour eberron or something (though that would be pretty badass).

Explicitly, deities know about events touching their portfolio in advance; the higher the deity rank, the further in advance they know.

Corellon Larethian, for example, includes "elves" in his portfolio. So if your shadows eat any elves, he knows about it well in advance.


Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event. SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense)
IIRC CL is 19th rank. Therefore 4 months and two weeks before your shadows eat their first elf, he knows it's going to happen. And he cares. And he has many minions capable of dealing with a single shadow, and the odds approach certainty that any population center large enough to support a shadow apocalypse has one living within 19 weeks travel.

And then multiply this effect by all the deities who would prefer that there not be a shadow apocalypse. All the good ones; all the nature ones, if you take undead as an affront to nature; a large portion of the lawful neutral ones will view such an event as a threat to established order; and even some of the evil deities will oppose it because it interferes with their schemes, e.g., they want *their* minions to have the pleasure of sacking the great city Shadow Target, not some pathetic near-mindless undead.

[SiuiS]

What particular method are you using on that one?

This one.


Alternately, and just for kicks, an irate wizard shape changes into a Radiant Dragon, uses some chicanery to get Widen Breath, casts Rebuking Breath, and infinitely widens it, unleashing a cone of blinding light ending all undeath on the planet below a certain HD threshold.

Rebuking breath says it affects every undead in the area – no turning check. And you destroy every undead you turn that's half your level, yes?

[eggynack]

This one.
Right, forgot that you were the person with that as the method.


Rebuking breath says it affects every undead in the area – no turning check. And you destroy every undead you turn that's half your level, yes?
I'm not really sure. First, rebuking breath rebukes instead of turning, so you would presumably get the command effect if you would get anything. Probably actually better though. Second, there is a saving throw attached to the breath weapon, and it looks like failing the saving throw is a necessary condition for the rebuking to work. Even if you boost the save DC infinitely, there's still a 1 in 20 chance of a given shadow making it out the other end intact, due to automatic success on a 20, so you'd only wipe out almost all of the shadows. This might actually work out in your favor with the first factor, because if 19 out of 20 shadows are under your control, then you have a good chance of just ending up with all of the shadows, cause of how they work.

Finally, and it's probably the biggest problem, the spell compendium version of the spell alters the effect from perfectly mirroring standard rebuking, with 10 rounds of cowering, to the lesser effect of one round of cowering. This implies that the effect of rebuking breath is exactly what it says on the last line. To quote the text, "Undead within the area of your breath weapon that fail their saving throws against it cower as if in awe for 1 round." It's possible that destruction/commanding is a fundamental aspect of turning/rebuking, while the duration is not, but I don't think it's necessarily perfectly unambiguous.

[Khatoblepas]

Rebuking breath says it affects every undead in the area – no turning check. And you destroy every undead you turn that's half your level, yes?

Every undead in the area that fails it's save. Unfortunately, a Radiant Dragon has a Fort Save or Blind breath weapon rather than a Ref Save, so the Shadows would be immune to it. All you'd achieve is blinding people for 1d6 rounds - since the Shadows would automatically succeed on their Fort Save.

What you'd need is a breath weapon effect that is guaranteed to hit the Shadows, but not guaranteed to hit everyone else. A Force Dragon's breath weapon could work, but the minimum damage on that is 5d12, which is more than enough to completely obliterate Level 1 Commoners everywhere.

What we need is a way to optimise a minimum damage so that rebuking breath can be cast several times and the breath weapon triggered, without hurting anyone. Hmm...

I've got it! A Song of the Dead (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Song_of_the_Dead) Dragon Breath (http://dndtools.eu/spells/draconomicon--92/dragon-breath--1034/) Spell. Song of the Dead has the dubious honour of bypassing the mind affecting resistance of Undead, but that's not what we're using it for. A Song of the Dead Spell:


Mindless undead (those without Intelligence scores) are still immune to its effect, and the altered spell has no effect against living creatures or constructs

The feat doesn't say it can only be applied to Mind Affecting spells (though if you're a stickler, stick on Fell Frighten too and make it a Scepter instead), but it's pretty useless for anything but that... and this.

Make a Wand of Song of the Dead Dragon's Breath, infinite widen breath, then dismiss the spell, losing your breath weapon, and thus, the recharge time is lost. Then, you cast it again, and again, and again, until every low level undead on the prime material plane is dead.

Then you keep doing it until anyone who wants to make a Shadow Apocalypse shuts up.

[Mithril Leaf]

Oh, how about a warforged Juggernaut who takes it upon himself to eradicate undead, as that is entirely in line with the fluff of the warforged race as laid out in Races of Eberron.

[Fax Celestis]

Every undead in the area that fails it's save. Unfortunately, a Radiant Dragon has a Fort Save or Blind breath weapon rather than a Ref Save, so the Shadows would be immune to it. All you'd achieve is blinding people for 1d6 rounds - since the Shadows would automatically succeed on their Fort Save.
as an effect that specifically targets undead, they are not immune to the required Fortitude save.

[eggynack]

as an effect that specifically targets undead, they are not immune to the required Fortitude save.
I don't think that you're necessarily right on this one. The fortitude save of rebuking breath isn't actually part of rebuking breath. Instead, it's a function of the breath weapon, which does not specifically target undead.

[Fax Celestis]

Fine. We'll just get Wizdragon to use rebuking breath and then animate breath, possibly with incantatrix persistomancy, and in rapid succession, followed by teleport to put his new breathy minions into the thick of it.

Hell, if we could, we could make a living spell of rebuking breath/animate breath/cure critical wounds and have it just smack Wizdragon repeatedly. Or a spell turret (dmg2). Or a resetting trap series.

[Khatoblepas]

as an effect that specifically targets undead, they are not immune to the required Fortitude save.

I'm a little confused, the Breath Weapon's effect is this:


Breath Weapon (Su):
A radiant dragon has two types of breath weapons, a line of force or a cone of light. Creatures caught within the cone must make Fortitude saves or be blinded for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon. A successful save means the creature is merely dazzled for the same duration. Sightless creatures are immune to the cone of light breath weapon.

And Rebuking Breath says this:


Undead within the area of your breath weapon that fail their saving throws against it cower as if in awe for 1 round.

Rebuking Breath doesn't actually have a save (it only triggers if the undead fail their saving throws vs. the breath weapon), and the Radiant Dragon's Breath Weapon doesn't say it specifically targets undead. Undead automatically succeed on Fortitude saves that don't target objects, so they never fail the save, and thus are never rebuked. If I'm wrong, then sure, this sort of works?

Otherwise, Song of the Dead [Fell Frighten] Dragon's Breath will work.

Edit: Whoops, I sure am slow today.

[SiuiS]

I'm not really sure. First, rebuking breath rebukes instead of turning, so you would presumably get the command effect if you would get anything.

Crap, you're right. I did a book dive and found something that affected turning on there, and must have mentally added it to rebuking breath. Hm.



Finally, and it's probably the biggest problem, the spell compendium version of the spell alters the effect from perfectly mirroring standard rebuking, with 10 rounds of cowering, to the lesser effect of one round of cowering. This implies that the effect of rebuking breath is exactly what it says on the last line. To quote the text, "Undead within the area of your breath weapon that fail their saving throws against it cower as if in awe for 1 round." It's possible that destruction/commanding is a fundamental aspect of turning/rebuking, while the duration is not, but I don't think it's necessarily perfectly unambiguous.

Ah, yes. I did not recall they updated it in spell compendium. Requires more effort, then, but still nothing more than a day's effort by an irate wizard. So let's see...


Every undead in the area that fails it's save. Unfortunately, a Radiant Dragon has a Fort Save or Blind breath weapon rather than a Ref Save, so the Shadows would be immune to it. All you'd achieve is blinding people for 1d6 rounds - since the Shadows would automatically succeed on their Fort Save.

What you'd need is a breath weapon effect that is guaranteed to hit the Shadows, but not guaranteed to hit everyone else. A Force Dragon's breath weapon could work, but the minimum damage on that is 5d12, which is more than enough to completely obliterate Level 1 Commoners everywhere.

What we need is a way to optimise a minimum damage so that rebuking breath can be cast several times and the breath weapon triggered, without hurting anyone. Hmm...

I've got it! A Song of the Dead (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Song_of_the_Dead) Dragon Breath (http://dndtools.eu/spells/draconomicon--92/dragon-breath--1034/) Spell. Song of the Dead has the dubious honour of bypassing the mind affecting resistance of Undead, but that's not what we're using it for. A Song of the Dead Spell:



The feat doesn't say it can only be applied to Mind Affecting spells, but it's pretty useless for anything but that... and this.

Make a Wand of Song of the Dead Dragon's Breath, infinite widen breath, then dismiss the spell, losing your breath weapon, and thus, the recharge time is lost. Then, you cast it again, and again, and again, until every low level undead on the prime material plane is dead.

Then you keep doing it until anyone who wants to make a Shadow Apocalypse shuts up.

Screw multiple attacks.

• Shapechange to radiant dragon
• shuffle in widen breath and clinging breath
• song of the dead shenanigans
• use combination rebuking breath & wish to change the rebuking breath effect to a straight turning effect
• launch an infinitely wide radiant breath with +19 rounds of radiant turning that effects undead

Any shadow that survives 20 rounds of anihilation turning deserves the dubious honor.

And yes, maybe radiant breath isn't the best, but it's still a fun and thematic form, you could insert a working method on your own, I trust?

[Flickerdart]

Guys, guys, what are you doing, with the turning and the Song of the Dead and the breath. Just jack up your CL to equal the number of shadow there are and wish to transport all of them into the Plane of Fire.

[Hazrond]

Guys, guys, what are you doing, with the turning and the Song of the Dead and the breath. Just jack up your CL to equal the number of shadow there are and wish to transport all of them into the Plane of Fire.

Im pretty sure you would need chicken-infested-commoner-with-greater-consumptive-field levels of cheese to get that high of a CL

[Flickerdart]

Im pretty sure you would need chicken-infested-commoner-with-greater-consumptive-field levels of cheese to get that high of a CL
Not if you started doing it before there were any shadows (or after a shadow wipe using another method). Just set a spell clock to fire once per round and dump shadows into endless fire.

[Fax Celestis]

Not if you started doing it before there were any shadows (or after a shadow wipe using another method). Just set a spell clock to fire once per round and dump shadows into endless fire.

Actually, on that: could we Dream of Metal as a preparatory measure? "Oh no, shadowpocalypse! Fish the Dreamer out of the quintessence!" *time resets* "...huh, I'm missing some power points. Time to do some divinations to find shadows and nuke them before they turn into a real problem."

[Flickerdart]

Actually, on that: could we Dream of Metal as a preparatory measure? "Oh no, shadowpocalypse! Fish the Dreamer out of the quintessence!" *time resets* "...huh, I'm missing some power points. Time to do some divinations to find shadows and nuke them before they turn into a real problem."
That seems kind of overkill, but yeah, you could savescum life.

[Khatoblepas]

Screw multiple attacks.

• Shapechange to radiant dragon
• shuffle in widen breath and clinging breath
• song of the dead shenanigans
• use combination rebuking breath & wish to change the rebuking breath effect to a straight turning effect
• launch an infinitely wide radiant breath with +19 rounds of radiant turning that effects undead

Any shadow that survives 20 rounds of anihilation turning deserves the dubious honor.

And yes, maybe radiant breath isn't the best, but it's still a fun and thematic form, you could insert a working method on your own, I trust?

Oh, there we go, Clinging Breath can lead us to the solution!

Song of the Dead Dragon's Breath, put on Maximise Breath, and Lingering Breath:

You can apply this feat more than once to the same breath weapon. Each time you do, the lingering breath lasts an additional round.

You simply add on NI Lingering Breaths, which means that after you breathe, there is a cloud that deals half damage to anyone in the cloud forever, unless the people in the cloud can escape it.

The Cloud is infinitely large.

All Intelligent Undead on the Prime Material Plane take 9 damage a round. Forever.

[Flickerdart]

Poor Necropolitans. They'll have to get space habitats.

[eggynack]

Y'know, gotta say, I'm not sure that common sense can be fixed by the existence of these things. Seems to be going in the wrong direction.

[Flickerdart]

Y'know, gotta say, I'm not sure that common sense can be fixed by the existence of these things. Seems to be going in the wrong direction.
"Gods and other all-powerful beings with a vested interest in the world's balance actively interfere to keep things from breaking down" means that common sense doesn't have to play a part for the world to work.

[Khatoblepas]

Y'know, gotta say, I'm not sure that common sense can be fixed by the existence of these things. Seems to be going in the wrong direction.

Hey, we just fixed the Shadowpocalypse with mortal magic, and the Wightocalypse as a neat side effect, without having to resort to Wish or Gods. Common sense left the thread as soon as it was assumed that Gods don't do anything.

Also, those Necropolitans can just wear a Ring of Energy Resistance or similar. Or we can cast Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on them. It's just 9 damage. The Shadows and Wights don't have access to that many magical items for all of their spawn, forever.

[SiuiS]

Im pretty sure you would need chicken-infested-commoner-with-greater-consumptive-field levels of cheese to get that high of a CL

Actually, overlapping areas of the spell that absorbs energy and then casts would work, you need one to cast summon swarm (gnats), one for death knell, etc, to get quick boost to CL. Works best as an ur-priest though.


Oh, there we go, Clinging Breath can lead us to the solution!

Song of the Dead Dragon's Breath, put on Maximise Breath, and Lingering Breath:


You simply add on NI Lingering Breaths, which means that after you breathe, there is a cloud that deals half damage to anyone in the cloud forever, unless the people in the cloud can escape it.

The Cloud is infinitely large.

All Intelligent Undead on the Prime Material Plane take 9 damage a round. Forever.

Wouldn't want to do that. Leves an eternal cloud, etc. The benefit of blinding breath with a rider effect was that you can make it transdimensional, and everything is turned. It's not hard to make the save on the breath something the shadows aren't immune to, and this way you don't live ina world of fog. It's already bad enough that all of the world's civilizations can use "the great flash" as a history point.


Y'know, gotta say, I'm not sure that common sense can be fixed by the existence of these things. Seems to be going in the wrong direction.

The common sense approach is, that if we have not yet experie ced an apocalypse, it's not going to happen now. Nothing has changed, and assuming it would is being ignorant of outside factors.

This was all on the assumption that the idea was worth refuting in detail, just to be extra super special clear.


"Gods and other all-powerful beings with a vested interest in the world's balance actively interfere to keep things from breaking down" means that common sense doesn't have to play a part for the world to work.

I have to say, though, protecting your interests from an apocalypse does indeed strike me as common sense. What does not strike mea s common sense is the argument that something that hasn't happened should happen al the time, because it speaks of ideas in a vacuum.

[Khatoblepas]

Wouldn't want to do that. Leves an eternal cloud, etc. The benefit of blinding breath with a rider effect was that you can make it transdimensional, and everything is turned. It's not hard to make the save on the breath something the shadows aren't immune to, and this way you don't live ina world of fog. It's already bad enough that all of the world's civilizations can use "the great flash" as a history point.

Okay, but how are you going to make the Shadows not immune to the Fortitude Save that the Radiant Dragon's Breath gives? It's that the Shadow needs to fail for rebuking breath to have any effect, and you haven't presented anything that makes the Shadows vunerable. They're undead, remember? They're immune to every Fort effect that doesn't also affect objects, and Radiant Breath doesn't affect objects.

Also, if you're worried about a visible cloud, Invisible Song of the Dead Fell Frightening Dragon Breath. With all the undead-destroying radiation of before with none of the fog - and you'll never have to worry about undead ever again.

[SiuiS]

Okay, but how are you going to make the Shadows not immune to the Fortitude Save that the Radiant Dragon's Breath gives? It's that the Shadow needs to fail for rebuking breath to have any effect, and you haven't presented anything that makes the Shadows vunerable. They're undead, remember? They're immune to every Fort effect that doesn't also affect objects, and Radiant Breath doesn't affect objects.

Also, if you're worried about a visible cloud, Invisible Song of the Dead Fell Frightening Dragon Breath. With all the undead-destroying radiation of before with none of the fog - and you'll never have to worry about undead ever again.

A rider effect that makes radiant breath affect either undead or objects, of course. I'm already using Wish to turn rebuking breath into a turning effect, something as simple as "fort save half" isn't an issue. You can get that with adding holy damage! Save for negating the damage, even if it is 1 point. Or you could add a knockdown effect and change it to (or add an additional) reflex save.

The key is that it is immediately possible once a wizard gets Shapechange. The exact method I choose right now isn't relevant beyond proving that exact methods exist and are many.

[Flickerdart]

I have to say, though, protecting your interests from an apocalypse does indeed strike me as common sense. What does not strike mea s common sense is the argument that something that hasn't happened should happen al the time, because it speaks of ideas in a vacuum.
Eh, someone's always trying to break the world. One day it's shadows, the other day it's wizards, next week there's an invasion of demons planned. The reason there are so many adventurers is because there's no end of world-ending threats in a setting.

[hamishspence]

Eh, someone's always trying to break the world. One day it's shadows, the other day it's wizards, next week there's an invasion of demons planned. The reason there are so many adventurers is because there's no end of world-ending threats in a setting.
Or, as Men in Black puts it:

"There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they do not know about it!"


:smallamused:

[Talionis]

Something is keeping it in check.

Vampires maybe capable of self interest, so they know not to turn too many people into vampires. But for unthinking undead, they often don't have a biological need to turn others. So they may not be goal oriented towards it. Even if they catch a whole town, they don't necessarily search out new towns. Some of the more intelligent Undead might keep the unintelligent Undead in check using rebukes or other mechanisms of control.

But very possibly the Gods may have a hand in it. Death Gods wanting to create more undead, but Perlor and others keep it in check and balance. If lots of people start getting turned to Undead the Gods would probably take notice.

You could even suggest that there might be a natural predator to undead that is full of positive energy and hunts the Undead keeping their numbers down.

The Web of Life is tricky and no one may observe the forces or creatures that keep the Undead from proliferating.

Possibly the Force of Nature itself might intervene to protect the living.

If your players require an answer you can give them one. Any number of things seem reasonable to me. Nature always tends to find a balance, that or it ends up an empty dirty petridish. But with an adequately large petridish you probably have enough different forces that might come together to stop something from destroying the entire world.