Decisions, Decisions... Need advice from experienced players...

[wolfstone]

Okay, so my partner wants to run a D&D 4e campaign and I'm trying to settle on a character choice. I want to play a Tiefling and with learning that a Flaming weapon can grant the +2 atk for Infernal Prince + Hellfire Blood, I would prefer a melee character this time. I have narrowed my class choices to four. We're starting our characters at level 5, and I know I want to go for accuracy first, so I'm using the Infernal Prince theme and the Hellfire Blood feat, along with another Weapon expertise feat. We can set our attacking stat at 18, so that will help with accuracy. (Our last campaign had lots of missed attacks). My problem is that I've only played a wizard and don't have a ton of combat experience, so I'm unsure which class to go with. As we can't get together with the other players lately due to scheduel conflicts and hot weather, I don't know what characters the other players will go with yet, so I'm focusing on what I would like to play.

My choices are, in order of preference:

1. Rogue with Cunning Sneak in hopes of getting combat advantage by hiding, but that's terrain-dependant, so not as appealing despite having the highest accuracy of all the choices due to hitting non AC defenses. I'm unsure of how difficult it would be to get combat advantage, so I'm leary of playing a rogue, but love the extra damage and overall concept.

2. Sword Mage with Aegis of Ensnarement and the Grasping Ensnarement feat. Tiefling Swordmages can get the highest possible attack bonuses in 4th Ed., but usually target AC, so not as sure-hitting as the Rogue, I think. I'm not sure how often I can get the Aegis teleport + slow to work, though, and the power selection for him would be limited until mid-Paragon (Lv. 16) when I can start adding fire to any power via that paragon path that adds 1d4 damage of a type you choose (can't remember the name right now). What if the DM singles me out so I can't use it enough? Also concerned about being a punching bag. I don't want my charactert to die.

3. Fighter. Tempted to go Tempest with Short Swords or a Greatspear for reach. Also torn between Combat Superiority or Combat Agility. I like Agility better because you can move and knock them prone when you hit, while Superiority only makes them move again after. I can pic my powers as I please, but there's the same in-combat issues. Will I be the first to die, or be unable to use my interrupt? Also, if there's no rogue in the party, is knocking Prone worth the effort?

4. Last choice in order of preference. Tempted to go for a hybrid (2-blade/archer - mainly 2 blade) and like the extra damage each round that's easier to get than the Rogue's, but the last campaign had a ranger of each type, so not as enthusiastic to play one.

So, does anyone with lots of 4e combat experience have any advice and/or can answer my concerns on the classes? Thanks in advance.

[Inevitability]

1. Cunning sneak is meant to be used at range. Hiding and shooting means you get to hide behind virtually anything on the battlefield. Hiding and stabbing means you get to hide in a tiny circle around your target.

2. Actually, a swordmage can use his flaming sword as implement and as weapon, so he deals fire damage with both implement and weapon attacks.

3. Combat Agility is regarded as a trap, because it makes the monsters decide where they bring you. And then there's the problem of being the only thing between the wizard and a monster when you decide to go chasing a second monster to the other side of the battlefield. And remember, if the monster chooses to move again after superiority, it is limiting its attack options.

Knocking prone is one of the frequently used ways to get people to stay where you want them, especially at low level. PHB3 also has a feat that makes axes and heavy blades do more damage to prone targets.

If the DM sends all monsters at you, then there's a fair chance you'll die indeed. However, with a decent healer and party members who aren't afraid to take a hit, you'll easily survive.

4. Are you talking about the Hybrid character rules from PHB3? Or about a ranger who fights both in melee and at range?

[Kurald Galain]

(1) If you want accuracy, rogue is a very good pick. You don't particularly need hiding to get combat advantage; there are plenty of other ways of doing that. A well-played rogue has CA about 95% of the time. The best rogue builds are Brutal Scoundrel (offensive style) or Artful Dodger (defensive style).

(2) Monster AC is about two points higher than other defenses, and attacks that target AC are almost always weapon attacks which means you get to add +2 proficiency bonus. So in terms of accuracy, it doesn't matter at all (unless you have a feat that retargets AC attacks to e.g. reflex). However, snaremages have the issue that they don't actually prevent attacks to your allies, meaning other swordmage builds are generally better.

(3) Yes, a proning fighter is worth playing regardless of party makeup. The standard trick is to throw an enemy prone then stand one square away, so it can't get up and attack (you're out of reach) and it can't get up and charge either (charging requires two square distance minimum). Also, fighters are better at the "stand there and take it" kind of defender than swordmages.

HTH.

[Sol]

If you're worried about getting reliable CA, but wan to play a rogue, consider playing a thief. Between Tactical and Ambush tricks, you have auto-CA against any enemy who is either not adjacent to it's own allies, or who is adjacent to one of your allies. And since focus-firing is a good thing, that should mean CA against the target you want. If you want to stick with a normal rogue, I'd suggest not relying on stealth for CA. The stealth rules are incredibly complicated, and being impossible to target is actually not a good thing for your party, because the encounter was build assuming one more available target for their damage than will exist in practice, which can easily lead to dead party members. There's plenty of other routes to perma-CA, if you want. Either STR-secondary rogue deals more damage than a cunning sneak, and Riposte Strike + Vigilante Justice Style is incredibly strong.

Ensnaring Swordmage is generally regarded as the worst defender in 4e, because its mark punishment doesn't actually discourage the enemy from attacking your allies at all, it just makes it very marginally harder to do so. Shielding and Assault swordmages are both awesome, though.

Fighters are great. If you're wanting to focus so much on accuracy, though, why pick tempest over weapon talent? Also worth considering either essentials variant (knight, slayer) here, since you seem to be a little new still.

While it's true that rangers don't lose all that much by going STR/DEX instead of picking one of those and maintaining a secondary WIS score, you don't gain anything by splitting your attacks between melee and ranged either. You'd need either ki focus proficiency or THREE maintained weapons, which is hugely expensive, not even taking into consideration expertise and focus feats, or expanded crit range feats at epic. Most paragon paths also highly specialize one or the other.

Additionally, if you're highly interested in accuracy, consider playing an avenger.

[georgie_leech]

If you go with Cunning Sneak and get to Paragon, consider multiclassing to Monk to get the Ghostwalker Prestige Path, especially if you're planning on Hiding a lot. The important bit is that PP gives you Concealment (which is all Cunning Sneaks need to Hide) against anyone you have Combat Advantage against, which is anyone you're Hidden from, so....

[wolfstone]

4. Are you talking about the Hybrid character rules from PHB3? Or about a ranger who fights both in melee and at range?

A multi-weapon ranger who swaps between 2 swords and a crossbow.

[georgie_leech]

A multi-weapon ranger who swaps between 2 swords and a crossbow.

Why crossbow specifically? Bows tend to have higher Proficiency bonuses. Also, do you have access to MP2? There's an option for Rangers in that book that encourages switching between Melee and Ranged.

[wolfstone]

The only "Escencials" build I ever really liked was the Mage class for my Tiefling Wizard (pyromancy-oriented) because it gave him the ability to ignore fire resistance and immunity.

For all the others, you lose either Encounter or Daily powers, which I don't like. It's true that you gain other bonuses, but I like the traditional builds for the wider list of possible powers to choose from.

The Cunning Sneak sounded to me like it gave me the best chances of getting CA more often (which for me is the main issue). I thought of Cunning Stalker feat and maneuvering powers as an alternative, but it seems to me that Rogues don't get reliable CA until Paragon, where they can use the Lightning weapon + Mark of Storm feat + Deadly Draw feat, or the Frost weapon + ... (I forgot the feat names, but both are cold feats that give you CA and the foe vulnerability to cold) combos to generate repeatable CA at will. I was also thinking of Brutal Scoundrel and making STR my second strong stat, but again, it doesn't matter without the CA. Until Paragon, I just don't see ways to get CA reliably without the help of other players, who might be too busy with their own fighting to help, and I can't garantee that one of them will choose a class that can help me get CA (they played 2 rangers - 1 ranged and 1 melee - A second wizard and a cleric).

The Ensnaring Swordmage was an idea as I wanted a meassure of control over enemies, plus the Viscious advantage would give me a possibly reliable CA at will, but if it's that bad, then I would take a Fighter as my second choice.

The tempest Technique gives a +1 to attacks as well, plus I can tag multiple opponents with Combat Challenge. I suppose Combat Superiority WOULD make foes choose to move OR attack, so yeah, I guess it IS better in the end. Tempest sounds fun, but I also like the idea of a Flaming Weapon -Greatspear for the extra reach it would give my attacks. I think that with Prone-ing would work pretty well, if you all think Prone-ing is actually useful, so I'm torn as Tempest lets me hit more targets, but Greatspear would be better for single-target damage and knocking prone.

Any thoughts on this?

Also, can someone tell me methods for getting reliable CA pre-Paragon level? I REALLY like the rogue, but don't know how to use him effectively. For the Fighter, I have a pretty good idea of how to use him now, esp. with the tip on knocking foes prone and being a square away so they can't counterattack on their turn.

[GPuzzle]

Bows tend to have higher Proficiency bonuses.
Nope, the "best" bow has a +2 proficiency, 1d12 damage die while the "best" crossbow has a +3 proficiency, 1d10 damage die.

[wolfstone]

Yeah, I was thinking Superior Crossbow, which has a +3 proficiency. The only other ranged weapons with +3 are Daggers and Shuriken.

As for a Prone-ing Fighter, I'll have to look, but I may get stuck with a +2 Prof. Mace, or something. I need to research Fighter powers and weapons better. I'd like to have a reach weapon and knock foes prone from a square away, if possible. The greatspear is the only reach weapon with a +3 proficiency. I can't recall if there's many non-hammer/mace powers that knock prone, and not sure if there's ways to use a spear/polearm (greatspear is both) to knock prone (such as feats). Otherwise, I'll need a way to move in, hit to prone, then move away again in the same turn, which I think is tricky to pull off for a Fighter.

[Sol]

For CA as a rogue -- you automatically have CA during surprise rounds and the first round of combat against combatants who have not yet had a turn -- so improved initiative is important, as is 20 DEX after racial at level 1. 18 is fine, but DEX is the only stat where 20 is not hindering you in any fashion, unless you want dual-primary STR for riposte strike purposes.

Cunning Stalker gives you CA against any isolated target -- which is actually less useful a lot of times than it sounds, because enemies are most likely to be isolated on the first round, which you already have CA for. It's better for ranged purposes post round-1, but still can be used by melee if you don't mind putting yourself in harm's way. For obvious reasons, this is even more badass with riposte strike. Flanking with a defender is the easiest way to get CA, and is ALSO even more badass with riposte strike (if you take vigilante justice style).

Your party's leader, controller, and/or defender should all have fairly reliable ways of causing enemies to grant you CA, as well. If they don't, but are often slowing enemies, the Vicious Advantage feat causes slow and immobilize to also give you CA.

Crossbows are fine, but keep in mind that getting access to a superior crossbow is actually two feats -- the proficiency feat and speed loader, or else you'll have to spend a minor action to reload it...and you're already looking at needing either specific items or another feat to swap around what you're holding without taking 2 minors to stash 2 swords and a third minor to pull out a crossbow. Also, again, keeping 3 weapon enchants up to snuff is extremely expensive. A ki focus could help this, but you'd be limited to the Body of Fire ki focus, which would limit you to untyped damage powers (easy as a ranger, thankfully). You'd be forced to take a MC feat to get access to ki focii as well, but monk isn't a terrible MC. Still, you'd be looking at a minimum of 4 feats (speed loader, superior crossbow proficiency, MC monk, Clever Tail or Quick Draw (or both)), and even with both free action draw item feats you'd be spending a minor to swap between DW and ranged unless you also had a Battle Harness or a Deep Pocket Cloak. It's fun to have more options, but it's pretty expensive any way you do it. It's generally considered better to just offhand a dagger that you can throw if you are immobilized, or use for Throw & Stab.

Greatspear Fighters with Polearm Momentum can be pretty amazing, though they tend to want to be Dragornborn for Dragonic Arrogance or Goliath for the 2-round Threatening Reach U12 PP. Still, the Tiefling version should work fine.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, I was thinking Superior Crossbow, which has a +3 proficiency. The only other ranged weapons with +3 are Daggers and Shuriken.

Daggers are +4 on a rogue, and have a triple crit rate with the right paragon path.

And yes, a reach fighter basically trades +1 to hit for the reach ability. With the right powers and feats, that trade is well worth it.

[GPuzzle]

No, it doesn't, because Greatspear if you can spare the feats.

[Kurald Galain]

No, it doesn't, because Greatspear if you can spare the feats.

But Glaive allows you to take Heavy Blade Opportunity... :smallcool:

[wolfstone]

Daggers are +4 on a rogue, and have a triple crit rate with the right paragon path.

And yes, a reach fighter basically trades +1 to hit for the reach ability. With the right powers and feats, that trade is well worth it.

The dagger itself is a +3 proficiency. It's only a +4 for Rogues who take the Scoundrel Weapon talent to give them an extra +1.

Sadly, there's no hammers or maces with reach, so I'd have to go with attacks that Prone w/o the weapon needing to be a hammer/mace, and fortunately, there are some, or use Polearm Momentum feat and powers that slide or push (still need to research those ones).

As for a Tiefling rogue, I'd have to either find a non-elemental CA engine, or give up the +2 to hit (by using Flaming Weapon) to get the CA instead. Can't count on other players in my group for help getting CA as they all focus solely on what they're doing and teamwork isn't a strong point. (They tend to thea that pops into their heads in any situation, making games drag out for hours over a scene that should be over in 15 min. :[ ), so I'm on my own on getting CA. A Tiefling Rogue probably won't be playable with my group, sad to say, if I want CA on my own and a high accuracy.

I may have to go with a Satyr Rgoue and take the Lightning CA engine route instead if I want a rogue that generates CA on demand (I learned that Mark of Storm is heroic tier, as is Deadly Draw and a Lightning weapon). It's workable as a Tiefling, but the lower accuracy sucks. If I can make it to mid-Paragon with him, though, I COULD multi-class Swordmage and take the PP that adds a 1d4 die of any element of damage at Lv. 16, regaining the +2 bonus, I suppose...

But if I want a Tiefling with +2 for fire-attacks right away and not worry about CA, it'll have to be a Fighter, it looks like.

[Dimers]

But if I want a Tiefling with +2 for fire-attacks right away and not worry about CA, it'll have to be a Fighter, it looks like.

If you're looking to maximize accuracy, swordmage is every bit as good as fighter for a tiefling -- because you can get a racial boost to Int but not to Str. That cancels out the fighter's Weapon Talent feature. A tiefling rogue using her class-appropriate tool (a dagger) likewise has the same attack bonus as a tiefling fighter with Weapon Talent or a tiefling swordmage using their most appropriate tools.

Getting CA is not a problem for most rogues in most situations, and all the classes you list are definitely viable, whether or not we're talking about tieflings.

I think the more important factor for your accuracy, though, is party composition. Get a good leader or controller to set you up, and you'll have no worries about accuracy at all.

As for the prone-knocking fighter, check out the alhulak or triple flail, both of which are +3 proficiency. Take Flail Expertise feat, and any time you slide a creature you can knock it prone instead. Being able to use any slide power as well as any prone power greatly expands your options. For example, footwork lure at-will attack can put the enemy one square away and prone if you apply the Flail Expertise effect.

[wolfstone]

If you're looking to maximize accuracy, swordmage is every bit as good as fighter for a tiefling -- because you can get a racial boost to Int but not to Str. That cancels out the fighter's Weapon Talent feature. A tiefling rogue using her class-appropriate tool (a dagger) likewise has the same attack bonus as a tiefling fighter with Weapon Talent or a tiefling swordmage using their most appropriate tools.

Getting CA is not a problem for most rogues in most situations, and all the classes you list are definitely viable, whether or not we're talking about tieflings.

I think the more important factor for your accuracy, though, is party composition. Get a good leader or controller to set you up, and you'll have no worries about accuracy at all.

As for the prone-knocking fighter, check out the alhulak or triple flail, both of which are +3 proficiency. Take Flail Expertise feat, and any time you slide a creature you can knock it prone instead. Being able to use any slide power as well as any prone power greatly expands your options. For example, footwork lure at-will attack can put the enemy one square away and prone if you apply the Flail Expertise effect.

Well, A Lv. 30 Tiefling Swordmage can get the maximum atk bonus possible at +43 (before CA and other modifiers), true, but I REALLY like the rogue class and figure on foregoing the +2 atk for Flaming Blade + Infernal Prince Theme + Hellfire Blood feat, in favor of the Lightning CA engine. I'll still take the Infernal Prince theme and at Paragon, multi-class feat to get the Kensei PP that will give me an extra +1 atk. Maybe at level 16, I can retrain the fighter mc feat (to get Kensei PP) into a Swordmage feat and if the DM will allow, since Kensei will no longer be valid, retrain to the Swordmage PP that adds a 1d4 of elemental damage to add fire to any attack, then use fire every time, I can use that with Infernal Prince and Hellfire Blood to have both. It'll be up to him, I suppose.

[wolfstone]

I tried searching online, but can't find a tutorial/handbook on how to get CA. That's my main problem. I can't rely on the other players to give it (assuming they even take classes that work well with Rogues, which I doubt they will. Each player is kind of 'I just want to do my own thing' kind of player and don't value teamwork). I just need ways to get CA on my own and sadly, elemental weapons + feats seem the only reliable route to me.

[Dimers]

I tried searching online, but can't find a tutorial/handbook on how to get CA. That's my main problem. I can't rely on the other players to give it (assuming they even take classes that work well with Rogues, which I doubt they will. Each player is kind of 'I just want to do my own thing' kind of player and don't value teamwork). I just need ways to get CA on my own and sadly, elemental weapons + feats seem the only reliable route to me.

"How to get CA" is very broad. A handbook would be nice, but it'd have to be HUGE to be complete. Flanking, not being seen, Bluff attempts, skill powers and other utilities, theme abilities, many conditions (prone / blind / dazed / stunned / dominated / restrained / surprised), movement types (squeezing / climbing), a whole host of powers, paragon path and epic destiny abilities ...

[Sol]

Between First Strike, Cunning Stalker, and flanking, you should never be denied CA unless you're dazed, slowed, or immobilized, even if your allies are being selfish.

The "elemental CA engine" you keep referring to hasn't been the most popular route to CA since roughly 2009.

[wolfstone]

Between First Strike, Cunning Stalker, and flanking, you should never be denied CA unless you're dazed, slowed, or immobilized, even if your allies are being selfish.

The "elemental CA engine" you keep referring to hasn't been the most popular route to CA since roughly 2009.

Oh? Why is that (It no no longer popular)? What's popular these days?

[wolfstone]

Okay, I decided to go with a Lightning Weapon - Dagger with the Mark of Storm and Deadly Draw feats to make sure I always have CA, then compensated for the lower accuracy by only taking powers that target Reflex or Will as form what I've heard, those are the two weakest (on average) defenses among monsters. The one exception to this was Gloaming Cut (the only vs. AC attack because there's only one non-AC at-will).

[masteraleph]

Oh? Why is that (It no no longer popular)? What's popular these days?

Basically what Sol said, and also the presumption, by the time you get that rolling, that some enemies will be dazed/stunned/blinded/whatevered by your controller and/or others. On my last Rogue I did take Wintertouched, but mostly because the Cold set of items and feats gives you a lot of damage relative to most other strategies- radiant is fine if your party has a Morninglord, Weretheme/Claw Gloves isn't a bad choice, though it's not as good, either, etc.

[wolfstone]

Well, I made both the lightning and the fire versions of the rogue and will try the fire one first (Flame weapon, Hellfire Blood and Cunning Stalker feats). If it works too poorly, I'll ask if I can switch to the Lightning one.

[wolfstone]

As for the fighter, prone-ing from a distance will be a bit tricky at first. Also, keeping the attention on him seems to be most of what a fighter does, as far as I can tell, otherwise, he clobbers them out-of-turn.

[wolfstone]

Additionally, if you're highly interested in accuracy, consider playing an avenger.

Avernger would be a bad fit for a flame-weapon weilding Tiefling, though. If I remeber correctly, many, if not most, Avenger powers are Radiant.

[Dimers]

Avenger would be a bad fit for a flame-weapon weilding Tiefling, though. If I remember correctly, many, if not most, Avenger powers are Radiant.

Most avenger powers are untyped, actually. Doesn't matter though -- if you used a flaming weapon with a radiant power, you'd still be dealing fire damage and using the fire keyword.

I'm glad you ended up picking the Rogue, anyway. It's first on the list of what you want to play, and that means that even with some imperfections in the build you're likely to have more fun. :smallsmile:

[wolfstone]

Most avenger powers are untyped, actually. Doesn't matter though -- if you used a flaming weapon with a radiant power, you'd still be dealing fire damage and using the fire keyword.

I'm glad you ended up picking the Rogue, anyway. It's first on the list of what you want to play, and that means that even with some imperfections in the build you're likely to have more fun. :smallsmile:

Well... I'm beginning to wonder if a rogue would be workable in the 'every man for himself approach' groups of mine. Perhaps a Greatspear for reach, or better still, a Singing Stick Fighter with Plate armor and a heavy shield would work better. I can armor up as much as possible and use attacks that add CON mod damage to get max damage per turn while being able to shrug off as many attacks as possible (being like a tank), and maybe get some knock prone effects, as most of them involve a hammer/mace or a shield. It won't be as good of damage per turn as a rogue, but I wouldn't needf to rely on the other (teamwork-opposed) players or the environment to hide in to get the extra damage. I may have to settle for what will work in a hostile play environment, rather than what would be enjoyable. :(

[Excession]

Well... I'm beginning to wonder if a rogue would be workable in the 'every man for himself approach' groups of mine. Perhaps a Greatspear for reach, or better still, a Singing Stick Fighter with Plate armor and a heavy shield would work better. I can armor up as much as possible and use attacks that add CON mod damage to get max damage per turn while being able to shrug off as many attacks as possible (being like a tank), and maybe get some knock prone effects, as most of them involve a hammer/mace or a shield. It won't be as good of damage per turn as a rogue, but I wouldn't needf to rely on the other (teamwork-opposed) players or the environment to hide in to get the extra damage. I may have to settle for what will work in a hostile play environment, rather than what would be enjoyable. :(
It is possible to build very hardy rogues. Drow is probably the best race for it; Cloud of Darkness gives you two turns of CA and a round of at least +5 to your defences.

I think a Str/Wis Paladin could do well in this situation. With the Divine Power book the Str option has several high damage attacks, and high Wis gives you a few uses of Lay on Hands to keep yourself upright. The Virtuous Recovery feat gives you Wis-mod resist all for a round when you spend a healing surge in any way. Build as a Dwarf for even more healing/resist via minor action Second Wind. Maybe MC Fighter so you can punish shifts once per encounter.