Tippyverse

[Threadnaught]

In addition to working out details for a future Campaign I plan to run, I've spent some time planning out the details for the future of my existing character in that ******* Druid's game. I will conquer Eberron by becoming the economy. I have no access to Secrets of Xen'drik or Sarlona, so I know of 12 Metropolis sized cities.

I've already worked out the cost of creating 30 traps to create 14400 units of specific weapons, armour and clothing each per day. Traps are to be created before the Teleportation Circles, so hopefully I'll have more control over how the world develops Post TC. Traps aren't an issue, the cities are.

Fairhaven, Sharn, Wroat, Rhukaan Draal, The Great Crag, Karrlakton, Korth, Flamekeep, Trolanport, Shae Cairdal, Shae Mordai, Io'lokar.

I haven't fully decided whether or not to link all of them together, to link them all to my main base of operations to act as the hub, or to select a few and just link those.
I'd prefer to have all of the cities linked together though as there's over 4.5billion gold's worth of cash in that area, Sharn of course, bringing 1billion of that by itself.
I want to at least link Sharn and Shae Mordai.


Knowing half of these cities are at war with each other, how do I go about safely linking them to maximize profit, without igniting conflict? I don't have to build a guarded trading hub in each city I link do I?
Would I need to create the Steel Legions early, hire some Warforged, or should a few Ice Assassins of an Ice Assassin of myself suffice?



Troll Question: And how damaging would it be to the economy of all 12 cities, if I were to do this, spread the influence of the Steel Legions and permanently link them to metropolis' on other planes?

[Crake]

You need to remember that tippyverse is based on the presumption that the revolution came about as soon as the teleportation circle spell was created. The fact that it hasn't occured in the world you're playing with likely means that there was something stopping it from happening already.

[Malroth]

Well not necessarily as soon as it was invented. It just required that one day a caster capable of teleportation circle, wondered if he could make some money with it, wasn't instantly gibbed by rocks falling from the overgod, then was copied by others once he started getting rich.

[Yahzi]

Knowing half of these cities are at war with each other, how do I go about safely linking them to maximize profit, without igniting conflict?
You specifically stated you were making weapons.

In almost any time and place, selling weapons to someone's enemy makes you an enemy. The instant anyone figures out you are doing this, you will be Public Enemy #1.

Furthermore, your teleportation circle is a way to insert troops or at least spies into the enemy lands. If you don't turn this over to the government of city A, then obviously you are using it for city B. Which makes you... Public Enemy #1.

And, since your stated goal is to take over the world, you are in fact a danger to every currently existing government. Presumably several of them have Clerics capable of Commune who will eventually ask, "Is this guy who is making so much money on our side?" and since the honest answer is "No," you are... Public Enemy #1.

So, no. There is no way you can make a magic portal between two warring nations without being involved in their war. The best you can do is make a portal between two peaceful nations, and hope that the warring ones get jealous and decide they want in on the trade more than they want to continue their wars. Since some of their wars are presumably alignment, racial, or divinely encouraged, this seems... unlikely.

You want to take over the world by becoming the economy, but Kings are in fact quite skilled at taking over economies so they can rule the world. That's kind of their job description, actually. :smallbiggrin:

[Threadnaught]

You specifically stated you were making weapons.

In almost any time and place, selling weapons to someone's enemy makes you an enemy. The instant anyone figures out you are doing this, you will be Public Enemy #1.

Weapons of special materials for collectors and adventurers. I may be selling enough to outfit an entire army, but I have no specific allegiance in any conflict that may occur as a result of my business. Bbesides competitors attempting to kill me/my workers.


Furthermore, your teleportation circle is a way to insert troops or at least spies into the enemy lands. If you don't turn this over to the government of city A, then obviously you are using it for city B. Which makes you... Public Enemy #1.

See, that's why I may need to build a very specific structure to prevent the TCs from being used to move armies. My biggest problems are the Dragons, the Blood of Vol and the Goblin/Orc states, I just need a way to prevent these from being a threat and keep a leash on the Silver Flame. Then there's the Dragonmarked Houses, once I open for business, they're likely to send everything they have after me. If I'd based in Aerenal, then at least they have to travel.


And, since your stated goal is to take over the world, you are in fact a danger to every currently existing government. Presumably several of them have Clerics capable of Commune who will eventually ask, "Is this guy who is making so much money on our side?" and since the honest answer is "No," you are... Public Enemy #1.

Well, my allegiance is to myself. I oppose the Quori, Khyber and her servants, and the Daelkyr.
Since several of those Clerics would also be asking "Is he our enemy?" they'd receive the honest answer of "No" and I wouldn't be on a hit list, the most important thing about Commune, is asking the right question. Remember, just because someone doesn't fight for you, doesn't automatically mean they're your enemy.


There is no way you can make a magic portal between two warring nations without being involved in their war. The best you can do is make a portal between two peaceful nations, and hope that the warring ones get jealous and decide they want in on the trade more than they want to continue their wars. Since some of their wars are presumably alignment, racial, or divinely encouraged, this seems... unlikely.

I can make it extremely difficult for unauthorised personnel to use my TCs. If a nation wishes to use my TCs to wage war against another, they would have to defeat my defences, which is effectively declaring war on me. If I am given a warning of at least 1 Round, I can get a message to everywhere else which city is attacking and if it isn't the Hub, I can rally a group there ready in defence.

I was planning on having an Ice Assassins for each Trap to make sure I got my money, but it may be worth having one Ice Assassin stand guard near each TC Entrance, so that brings me to a minimum of 52 Ice Assassins total. If the cities at war with each other, recognize that there are multiple copies of me hanging around my production facility, all just as powerful as each other, I think that discourages any attempt at open warfare. Against me, or any of my other customers.


You want to take over the world by becoming the economy, but Kings are in fact quite skilled at taking over economies so they can rule the world. That's kind of their job description, actually. :smallbiggrin:

Well lucky me, the kingdom of Galifar is out of the picture, Karrnath and Aundair still exist and I think Darguun and Breland may have a royal family too, but that still leaves 6 cities untouched by royal influence.

And even with those 6 cities, they're better off with me as an asset, than going alone.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The question you have to ask yourself is "why has nobody done this already?", because that's what your DM will use against you unless you happen to be the only spellcaster in the world capable of casting Teleportation Circle.

If you can use the rules to generate unlimited wealth then presumably everyone else can do the same thing. They don't, so there's either a reason or you have an unspoken agreement with your group not to use loopholes and inconsistencies to break the game.
Otherwise you'd already have a tippyverse economy.

[ace rooster]

I've already worked out the cost of creating 30 traps to create 14400 units of specific weapons, armour and clothing each per day. Traps are to be created before the Teleportation Circles, so hopefully I'll have more control over how the world develops Post TC. Traps aren't an issue, the cities are.


Teleportation circles I can get, as Eberron does not have 17th level casters beside a few specific cases. This is a setting with a decent mass transit system in effect already, so they break things less than you might think. On the other hand assuming that you are the first person to experiment with traps in the setting that gave us artificers and magic trains is probably a bit wide of the mark. You say you have worked out the cost of creating those traps, but even if the DM accepts that price that does not mean you can actually find somewhere to build them. Mundane flooding room traps are core traps, and not hugely expensive, but good luck finding a DM who will let you build one in the middle of a desert. The DM can handwave an underground river into existence, but a player cannot. In all probability there will not exist any locations where such a setting breaking trap would work, or they would already exist.

[Vogonjeltz]

Well not necessarily as soon as it was invented. It just required that one day a caster capable of teleportation circle, wondered if he could make some money with it, wasn't instantly gibbed by rocks falling from the overgod, then was copied by others once he started getting rich.

And wasn't strongarmed, kidnapped, or killed by any government entity, adventurers, or competition (to include: Assorted Villains, Thieves Guilds, Merchant Leagues and Guilds, Trading Costers, Consortiums, Various Monster Entities that might find a teleportation circle network to be useful (Dragons, Illithids, Beholders etc...), Every Religion in the Game World, and all Gods). Just some minor assumptions.


You want to take over the world by becoming the economy, but Kings are in fact quite skilled at taking over economies so they can rule the world. That's kind of their job description, actually.

It's good to be the King!

Threadnaught, if you want to have easy transit between cities at war you're looking at smuggling. The existence of the teleportation circles must remain a secret or someone, somewhere, who has more power (or just enough power) will kill the creator and seek to take over or destroy the circles.

Actually this could be great for a conspiracy adventure where the circle owners have just silenced someone who they thought was going to blab to their girlfriend or let the secret out and the adventurers have been hired by a relative to discover why the person was killed, and by whom.

Anyway, how one starts linking them may depend entirely on who is doing it, and also the physical structures of the cities. For my money though...why bother? Form your own trading coster, build compounds outside each city, and then in the inner sanctums safe from the prying eyes (and laws) of each city government, set up those circles. Putting them in cities is just begging to have them destroyed or taken over by another group. Also, I would construct them with failsafes in case a location does get taken over: Build coverings that can be dropped into place to prevent an invading horde from materializing or a button that can be pressed to disjoin them. 9th level magic is already involved, so why not protect with the best?

As for the use of golems...I'd actually advise against Ice Assassins, they're vulnerable to fire, and they don't bring anything to the table that you don't already (assuming you made them of yourself)...also if you ever need to sleep (and thus aren't actively controlling them) they kill you, and worst of all you don't have any control of them after they're 1 mile away. This is not conducive to profit. A safer option for guarding the portals is Iron or Stone Golems. Actually those may be unreliable as well, depending on the level of instructions that can be given.

You might just find it easier to not bother with physical guardians, instead have traps that trigger if the target doesn't have a specific arcane mark on them.

[Ruethgar]

See if you can manage to get rune circles of sanctuary or some other area enchantment that pacifies. Then have a troop from each city guarding their portal in your base and inspecting trade goods. For less magically inclined peoples you may wish to provide them with one or two items of yours to help with detect magic, discern lies and dispels. That's a start, not perfect but sill.

[Threadnaught]

You say you have worked out the cost of creating those traps, but even if the DM accepts that price that does not mean you can actually find somewhere to build them. Mundane flooding room traps are core traps, and not hugely expensive, but good luck finding a DM who will let you build one in the middle of a desert.

Magical Traps require Magical Components. I stockpile the Magical Components where I, among a very limited number of creatures, can reach them. Then once I have enough, I begin work on the Traps.


In all probability there will not exist any locations where such a setting breaking trap would work, or they would already exist.

You mean like Xen'drik?


Form your own trading coster, build compounds outside each city, and then in the inner sanctums safe from the prying eyes (and laws) of each city government, set up those circles. Putting them in cities is just begging to have them destroyed or taken over by another group.

Outside the cities? Umm, Karrlakton and Io'lokar are difficult to get to from a compound placed outside of the city. So is The Great Crag. No, no, no this will not do at all.
I would rather have my workers sign an agreement that legally binds them into being Mindraped into believing that if they blab, they and their loved ones will die in horrific ways.


Also, I would construct them with failsafes in case a location does get taken over: Build coverings that can be dropped into place to prevent an invading horde from materializing or a button that can be pressed to disjoin them. 9th level magic is already involved, so why not protect with the best?

You mean like an Ice Assassin that can cast Disjunction, Energy Immunity, wipe out an entire army and instantly alert another 50 that can do the same?


I'd actually advise against Ice Assassins

Oh this should be fun.


they're vulnerable to fire,

Energy Immunity. I can cast it, so they can cast it.


and they don't bring anything to the table that you don't already (assuming you made them of yourself)

They allow me to be in multiple places at once, Astral Projection is nice and all, but I still only affect one place at a time. This way I affect 53+.


...also if you ever need to sleep (and thus aren't actively controlling them) they kill you,

Ice Assassins of an Ice Assassin of myself. They don't want to kill me, they want to kill something that wants to kill me.


and worst of all you don't have any control of them after they're 1 mile away.

Mind Rape, they believe they are a security system designed in the appearance of the CEO and still know how to use their nation destroying powers. Also Permanencied Interplanar Telepathic Bond, allows me to keep in touch and order them around even while on other Planes.
It really helps with the coordinating.


You might just find it easier to not bother with physical guardians, instead have traps that trigger if the target doesn't have a specific arcane mark on them.

Have Traps that are defeated by a kidnapping, interrogation and Detect Magic?

Nah, I'd rather have a security system capable of dealing with level 1 Wizards.


See if you can manage to get rune circles of sanctuary or some other area enchantment that pacifies. Then have a troop from each city guarding their portal in your base and inspecting trade goods. For less magically inclined peoples you may wish to provide them with one or two items of yours to help with detect magic, discern lies and dispels. That's a start, not perfect but sill.

This is useful. Yes, cooperate with each city from the beginning, that would work with some. Though, the more hostile cities would be more difficult to work with. Though this at least mitigates some of the problem.

[Vogonjeltz]

Outside the cities? Umm, Karrlakton and Io'lokar are difficult to get to from a compound placed outside of the city. So is The Great Crag. No, no, no this will not do at all.
I would rather have my workers sign an agreement that legally binds them into being Mindraped into believing that if they blab, they and their loved ones will die in horrific ways.

You mean like an Ice Assassin that can cast Disjunction, Energy Immunity, wipe out an entire army and instantly alert another 50 that can do the same?

Oh this should be fun.

Energy Immunity. I can cast it, so they can cast it.

They allow me to be in multiple places at once, Astral Projection is nice and all, but I still only affect one place at a time. This way I affect 53+.

Ice Assassins of an Ice Assassin of myself. They don't want to kill me, they want to kill something that wants to kill me.

Mind Rape, they believe they are a security system designed in the appearance of the CEO and still know how to use their nation destroying powers. Also Permanencied Interplanar Telepathic Bond, allows me to keep in touch and order them around even while on other Planes.
It really helps with the coordinating.

I don't think most of that works.

However your response is a little confusing. Are you DMing this world or playing in it?

[Threadnaught]

I don't think most of that works.

However your response is a little confusing. Are you DMing this world or playing in it?

Ice Assassins can do everything the original could. If I build an Ice Assassin of myself, it can do everything I can. If I build an Ice Assassin of an Ice Assassin of myself, it can do everything my Ice Assassin can do, that is to say, everything I can do.
Energy Immunity, because Energy damage hurts, though not as much as you think. Simulacrum aren't weak to Fire, they melt into a puddle of "melted snow and ice" (water) regardless of what the damage that killed/destroyed them is. Ice Assassins explode in a 20 foot radius of Cold damage, unless they're destroyed by Fire damage, which causes them to melt into a puddle of "melted snow and ice".


And I'm playing, I'm a player. :smallcool:


Edit: I am the rules lawyer of the group, as in. When someone is confused as to how something ambiguous should be ruled, they ask me and I give my take on it.

[Ruethgar]

MagicalThis is useful. Yes, cooperate with each city from the beginning, that would work with some. Though, the more hostile cities would be more difficult to work with. Though this at least mitigates some of the problem.

Locate City bomb the ones that are going to be trouble. You don't need them anyway and you get to show what happens to people who don't want to cooperate in your otherwise peaceful endeavor. Or you could take the reactive approach and only bomb them after they breach your trust or otherwise threaten you, that would be viewed a bit more favorably but you may suffer losses if you are reactionary. If you go the full Tippy route and have the hall of traps to level people up, you can start a small organization of your own and power level people. Even if you only have 10% of the opposition's forces, if all of you are thrice the level and have access to power(spell traps of Mental Pinnacle) then you will win a lot more of any battles you are involved in.

[Vogonjeltz]

Ice Assassins can do everything the original could. If I build an Ice Assassin of myself, it can do everything I can. If I build an Ice Assassin of an Ice Assassin of myself, it can do everything my Ice Assassin can do, that is to say, everything I can do.
Energy Immunity, because Energy damage hurts, though not as much as you think. Simulacrum aren't weak to Fire, they melt into a puddle of "melted snow and ice" (water) regardless of what the damage that killed/destroyed them is. Ice Assassins explode in a 20 foot radius of Cold damage, unless they're destroyed by Fire damage, which causes them to melt into a puddle of "melted snow and ice".


And I'm playing, I'm a player.


Edit: I am the rules lawyer of the group, as in. When someone is confused as to how something ambiguous should be ruled, they ask me and I give my take on it.

Oh I specifically meant I don't think you can Mindrape a construct (animated ice statue).

Nor does Mindrape to the best of my knowledge do anything but remove/add memories, alter opinions, emotions, memories. That in no way contradicts the requirements that: "An ice assassin has no ability to become more powerful" or "an all-consuming needto slay the original". Changing the latter makes it more powerful, which is expressly prohibited by the former clause.

I fully agree they can, theoretically, cast most anything you can cast as long as it doesn't violate the clause that they can not become more powerful.

The 'I don't think most of that works' also referred to: Kidnapping, interrogation, Detect Magic of traps. How does one kidnap and interrogate a trap? Detect Magic is a day late and a dollar short when the trap is on the destination end of the teleportation circle.

Also: Ice Assassin is a spell, not a creature per se. So there's no way to make an Ice Assassin of something that isn't an existing creature.

Anyway, if your DM oks it all, it doesn't matter if it works normally or not. Difficult to provide you any useful advice if we're playing under different rules sets though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Oh I specifically meant I don't think you can Mindrape a construct (animated ice statue).

Nor does Mindrape to the best of my knowledge do anything but remove/add memories, alter opinions, emotions, memories. That in no way contradicts the requirements that: "An ice assassin has no ability to become more powerful" or "an all-consuming needto slay the original". Changing the latter makes it more powerful, which is expressly prohibited by the former clause.

I fully agree they can, theoretically, cast most anything you can cast as long as it doesn't violate the clause that they can not become more powerful.


You can get around mind-affecting immunity with polymorph or a Skin of the Proteus. Anything that changes your type into humanoid or something else that doesn't have the immunity works.

The "can not become more powerful" clause is commonly interpreted as "can not gain experience/advance in level". Otherwise your Ice Assassins couldn't use buffs or items which would make them pretty useless. The conflict between "need to destroy" and "absolute obedience" of making an Ice Assassin of yourself is pretty well known. Interpretations differ by DM.

I agree with the rest.

[Threadnaught]

Oh I specifically meant I don't think you can Mindrape a construct (animated ice statue).

Polymorph Any Object. That should work.


or does Mindrape to the best of my knowledge do anything but remove/add memories, alter opinions, emotions, memories. That in no way contradicts the requirements that: "An ice assassin has no ability to become more powerful" or "an all-consuming needto slay the original". Changing the latter makes it more powerful, which is expressly prohibited by the former clause.

So Ice Assassins can't be affected by Spells and Ice Assassins of Casters can't cast Spells?

More powerful by RAW refers to Advancement. Either by adding HD or Levels, they can't gain xp.

Besides, even if Ice Assassins were prohibited from using any of the abilities of the original creature, the original Ice Assassin of myself is the creature all Ice Assassins of the Ice Assassin of myself are to be based on and the original they want to kill. They don't want to kill the original of the original, just the original. Even then, PAO.


I fully agree they can, theoretically, cast most anything you can cast as long as it doesn't violate the clause that they can not become more powerful.

Energy Immunity means they always explode when they die.
Death Throes gives them even more damage in the form of Negative Energy when they die.
Superior Invisibility gives them all day invisibility against anything but True Seeing.
Interplanar Telepathic Bond allows them to coordinate with myself and eachother.
Teleportation (not the circles) allows them to be almost anywhere on the prime material.
More advanced forms of Teleportation allow them to be anywhere on any Plane.
Ray Deflection means they cannot be hit by Rays.
Disjunction means even adventurers lose if they don't have a good Will save.
Greater Ironguard means they're immune to metal weapons. (guess what my products are made from)
True Seeing means they're immune to a large slice of the Illusion School.
Blindsight means they're immune to some more.
Mindblank means they're immune to Mind Affecting.
Planar Bubble means they have access to every Metamagic for Spells.
All of my Spells are specifically chosen to make the Caster more powerful.


The 'I don't think most of that works' also referred to: Kidnapping, interrogation, Detect Magic of traps. How does one kidnap and interrogate a trap? Detect Magic is a day late and a dollar short when the trap is on the destination end of the teleportation circle.

Trap? Nay, they kidnap an employee and demand to know how they're able to sell so many wondrous items for a pittance. They force them to spill the beans and they know of the TCs, Detect Magic is something they may cast at least twice.
Once to discover any magical effects or items on the employee's person, a second time when breaching the facility. The kidnapping and interrogation isn't of the trap, it's to bypass it.


Also: Ice Assassin is a spell, not a creature per se. So there's no way to make an Ice Assassin of something that isn't an existing creature.

Animate Dead and Animate Objects are Spells that also have the effect of creating a Creature.


Anyway, if your DM oks it all, it doesn't matter if it works normally or not.

Everything works by RAW. DM knows I'm going for a Tippyverse and hasn't said anything against it besides the obvious worrying that I'm too powerful when my other party members aren't as optimized. Although MetaMyconid is wanting to have his own slice of Eberron and he's learning the Artificer rather quickly. The only one likely to be left behind, is the Psion, who doesn't really care about optimization.
Though both other players are playing as their favourite Classes.