Giving monks maneuvers.

[maniacalmojo]

Instead of just doing unarmed swordsage would giving the monk class some maneuvers help offset the normal negatives a monk class has?

[eggynack]

What's the point of going that route instead of the swordsage one? It's not like the monk's class features so well designed that losing them is a problematic thing.

[JusticeZero]

Take the PHB and cut the word "Monk" out of the class description. Go to the ToB Swordsage and glue it over the word "Swordsage". Does that make you feel better about it? Seriously, the concept space that the class "monk" inhabits is large and isn't particularly exclusive. You can achieve it in a bunch of different ways.

[ngilop]

to not be a jerk and tell you 'unarmed swordsage' like you have specifically requested not to be done.

it would depend on the set of disciplines you gave them. For me I think, Devoted spirit, iron heart, Setting sun, and diamond mind would make a good selection.

[eggynack]

to not be a jerk and tell you 'unarmed swordsage' like you have specifically requested not to be done.
I dunno. I think it's a valid question. The unarmed swordsage basically already is a monk plus maneuvers. These ideas that are basically just unarmed swordsage but somehow different thus needs more justification than just putting the idea forward without any concrete plans. It's not like this is the first time this has been suggested, after all.

[Fax Celestis]

When I did this: http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update

I still threw the monk out the window. Pax Chi's sublime monk is wonderful. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29762

[torrasque666]

I dunno. I think it's a valid question. The unarmed swordsage basically already is a monk plus maneuvers. These ideas that are basically just unarmed swordsage but somehow different thus needs more justification than just putting the idea forward without any concrete plans. It's not like this is the first time this has been suggested, after all.

I won't try and argue that monk is a great class, or even all that good, but it has its own uniqueness on its own. Maybe he WANTS to have flurry, and diamond soul, and quivering palm, and all the other monk abilities. Normally eggy, I look up to you for ideas and advice, but when someone explicitly says "I don't want X" and you say "Do X anyway", it says that you don't respect them, or are even willing to use tact.

[eggynack]

I won't try and argue that monk is a great class, or even all that good, but it has its own uniqueness on its own. Maybe he WANTS to have flurry, and diamond soul, and quivering palm, and all the other monk abilities.
The main issue with that is that much of that stuff is already covered by the swordsage's maneuver access. Jaunt is a lot like abundant step, flurry is a lot like tiger claw, diamond soul is a lot like moment of perfect mind stuff, quivering palm and stunning fist are a lot like the swordsage's suite of debuffs (through shadow hand, I think), and slow fall is a lot like balance on the sky. I'm not really the best at ToB stuff either, so more knowledgeable folks would probably find even closer approximations. The unarmed swordsage doesn't just get suggested a lot because it happens to be a pretty good unarmed fighting guy. It also gets suggested because it matches a monk's abilities incredibly well.

Normally eggy, I look up to you for ideas and advice, but when someone explicitly says "I don't want X" and you say "Do X anyway", it says that you don't respect them, or are even willing to use tact.
That would be a more fair argument had the OP said, "I don't want X." Instead, I felt that the essence of the question was whether there was a point to doing it this way over the other way. In any case, the main issue is that if you want to do this thing, then you really need to know the exact reason why you're doing it, because otherwise you tend to just end up with a poorly designed swordsage. If you're just doing a generic monk fix, then sure, pushing towards unarmed swordsage needs a bit more tact, but the two things are really close in this circumstance. In the case of a maneuver laden monk, it's critical that you start with why before moving on to how.

[Averis Vol]

That would be a more fair argument had the OP said, "I don't want X." Instead, I felt that the essence of the question was whether there was a point to doing it this way over the other way. In any case, the main issue is that if you want to do this thing, then you really need to know the exact reason why you're doing it, because otherwise you tend to just end up with a poorly designed swordsage. If you're just doing a generic monk fix, then sure, pushing towards unarmed swordsage needs a bit more tact, but the two things are really close in this circumstance. In the case of a maneuver laden monk, it's critical that you start with why before moving on to how.

Actually, you know, he kinda did just say "Instead of just doing unarmed swordsage would giving the monk class some maneuvers help offset the normal negatives a monk class has?"

And the answer to that question is, well of course, anything extra will help them. I still like to use monk because of their ACF's. Decisive strike and invisible fist are incredible for mundane guys.

[eggynack]

Actually, you know, he kinda did just say "Instead of just doing unarmed swordsage would giving the monk class some maneuvers help offset the normal negatives a monk class has?"

And the answer to that question is, well of course, anything extra will help them. I still like to use monk because of their ACF's. Decisive strike and invisible fist are incredible for mundane guys.
I suppose, though your latter statement may have implied to me that the question was whether this was a thing to do. I mean, the unarmed swordsage is mostly just maneuvers and some punching ability with maneuvers stacked on. Obviously adding those maneuvers is going to make the monk better. To me, it's a lot like asking whether giving the monk full wizard casting would remove some of its weaknesses. Obviously it would, but at that point you're really dealing with a wizard, just like adding a swordsage's maneuvers means that you're really dealing with a swordsage.

[ThisIsZen]

I just saw this linked in the Monkday thread and figure it might be relevant to your interests if you don't just want to go Unarmed Swordsage. I'm in love with it despite only just reading it through an hour ago: T.G. Oskar's Retooled Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226857-3-5-The-Retooled-Monk-Strikes-Back-now-with-150-more-complexity!)

That aside, I think giving Monks an initiator progression would probably help cover some of their weaknesses, yes. The only problem with it is also included in the prelude to the above class - just outright giving a monk features from another subsystem is going to actively reduce the amount of viable multiclassing a monk can do to other parts of that subsystem. That said, if you gave them a unique set of initiator paths available, and maybe reworked some of their class features to take advantage of the new initiator progression, it might go a ways to offsetting the negative aspects of the class.

[AuraTwilight]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Martial_Adept_Monk_%283.5e_Alternate_Class_Feature %29

How's this?

[RhoTheWanderer]

[...]I think giving Monks an initiator progression would probably help cover some of their weaknesses, yes. The only problem with it is also included in the prelude to the above class - just outright giving a monk features from another subsystem is going to actively reduce the amount of viable multiclassing a monk can do to other parts of that subsystem.[...]
Following those lines,
1. Maybe give the monk 3/4 or even full initiator level progression.
2. Remove the multiclassing restriction that the monk has. At the very least, allow them to multiclass freely with the ToB classes. Also, depending on how your campaign is set up with regards to monastic "styles" or "ways" or what-have-you, either allow them to multiclass freely with certain classes, or create (and/or borrow) PrCs that blend the monk with something else and remove its multiclass restriction for that something else.

For example, you could have an order of monks (represented by a PrC) that are keepers of ancient arcane lore. As such, their more powerful members are often multiclass monk/wizards/[insert PrC here]. As for the PrC itself, maybe give it some arcane spell progression, some ways to blend the wizard's abilities with that of a monk's (maybe something along the lines of the duskblade's spell-channeling ability-thing so it can hit things and hurt them more + inflict special effects), and include a clause allowing them to multiclass freely between monk, wizard, and the PrC.

The net effect of the PrC solution is that (1)you give monk characters more options in your campaign, (2)you give your campaign setting a more unique flavor (assuming you create your own PrC and tailor it to your campaign as the DMG recommends on page 176), and (3)(assuming that the abilities of the PrC are palatable to your players) you've just made a monk dip that much more useful and viable.:miko:

[ThisIsZen]

My thought for an Initiator Monk would be to give it a full Initiator progression but remove or retool some of its normal class features to support the new Initiator focus. If you're just trying to weld ToB onto the mainline monk I don't think it'd work too well - better to just embrace the ToB entirely and redesign the Monk to fit in with the other three base initiators.

Just at a glance: I would redesign Flurry of Blows to complement Maneuver usage - perhaps x times/encounter, a Monk can make a standard attack at full BAB in addition to using a maneuver, but only if unarmored and using a monk weapon or an unarmed strike. Give them a 'meditation'-based recharge mechanic, I don't know what this would be exactly. Perhaps reconfigure Ki strike to apply either bonus damage or special effects to Maneuvers and standard attacks, out of a limited per-day pool of ki. You could fold in things like Stunning Fist here, or even more interesting things. Add an extra die of damage to any unarmed strike or attack with a monk weapon per point of expended ki, maybe? So a 2d8 damage unarmed strike would become 3d8 if you spent one ki, then maybe spend 2 more ki to add a Stunning effect to it, and allow this to be attached as a rider onto Maneuvers.

That being said, I feel like this would still end up feeling a lot like an Unarmed Swordsage since you're changing the key focus of the class away from Being a Monk and instead into Being an Initiator. My honest advice if you're looking for a stronger Monk class is T.G. Oskar's retool, though I'll admit I haven't perused a lot of the monk reworks out there - it seems to preserve and even expand on and enrich the flavor and feel of the original monk while shoring up and vastly expanding the mechanical options available to it.

EDIT: The thing I would put most in favor of this approach for shoring up a monk's shortcomings is that it's bound to be a bit less complex than the retooled monk. You still have to choose Maneuvers and Stances, but that's different from everything else you'd be choosing as a Retooled Monk.

A thought as far as Martial Disciplines go: Maybe it would be a good idea to really push the whole 'schools' angle here. Give an Initiator Monk access to one or two Disciplines of their choice, and open up further Disciplines roughly in-line with when they get access to their next level of Maneuvers. The 'main' school or schools would be buffed by some of the new class features it would get, while secondary schools they gain while levelling up don't get access to these bonuses.

[RhoTheWanderer]

Hmmm. Yep, I got off topic a bit with the multiclassing.
With regards to a recharge mechanic, we could go with the swordsage method*facepalm* But actually, that would perhaps fit. "You can recover an expended maneuver by using a full-round action to quickly meditate."(ToB16; emphasis added)

Personally, I'd be more inclined to suggest the warblade recovery method. Nothing else, describe the "using a standard action to do nothing else in a round" version as the character doing some sort of crazy intimidating martial arts display while making a few strange vocalizations.

Maybe allow them to use their abilities more times per day (or increase the DCs of said abilities' saving throws) by expending a maneuver as if they had already used it? Or in reverse, sacrifice a use of stunning fist (or a ki point or something) to instantly recover and use one known maneuver?

[sideswipe]

giving the monk a maneuvers known and redied like a warblade, but giving them devoted spirit, diamond mind, tiger claw, stone dragon and shadow hand would work. if a different one would fit better use it instead of stone dragon.

[Red Fel]

The problem is that a lack of options in combat is only one of the negatives from which the Monk suffers. I won't get into the Monk vs. Swordsage issue, because it's not relevant to that question (although I'll note that I'm on the side of the "play a Swordsage" crowd).

Look at the Monk's issues: MAD: The Monk needs Str, Dex, Con and Wis, in abundance. Adding maneuvers doesn't make him less MAD. Weapons: Without a Necklace of Natural Weapons, the Monk's signature - his unarmed strikes - is an embarrassment. Yes, eventually they become Lawful and Adamantine, but that's when the rest of your party has +4 Flaming Burst Vorpal Omnibane Gigaswords. You can grab Monk weapons, but they tend to have worse damage than your unarmed strikes. A first-level Fighter can pick up a +1 Longsword and be more impressive. Some maneuvers (e.g. Stone Dragon) can help him overcome DR and such, but they generally come at a cost of iterative attacks. Others (e.g. Punishing Stance) add a passive damage to all attacks, but may come with a malus of their own (e.g. Punishing Stance penalizes the Monk's already-low AC). AC: Speaking of, there's the fact that you're basically dependent on Wis and Bracers of Armor for your AC. Yes, AC doesn't scale well, but it's pretty useful to have at least a baseline, and Monk definitively doesn't. There are a few maneuvers that can rectify this (e.g. Wall of Blades), but on the whole, that's not what they do. Out of Combat Options: Melee generally doesn't get them. Rogue gets some skill boosts, lucky him, but Fighters and Monks draw the short straws. Maneuvers don't particularly help in that field, either.
Bottom line, maneuvers add more versatility to combat. More options. Monk doesn't just need more combat options; he needs more substance. He needs a better way to deal and take damage, less dependence on myriad ability scores, and more options out of combat. Maneuvers don't provide enough of this; those that do come from various and sundry disciplines, which would make choosing a cohesive and thematic maneuver list painful.

[Psyren]

Yes, if you graft "maneuvers" or "psionics" onto the monk chassis it gets much better. Of course, then you're still stuck with shyte like Slow Fall and Tongue of the Sun and Moon, so quietly drop those from the billing.

[Emperor Tippy]

It can be quite decent if done well.

If you do it the quick and dirty way (just saying, you get to pick X maneuvers from Y list in place of Z class features) then it tends to turn out crappy and/or boring but done well its quite fun.

I'll see if I can remember where my old homebrew maneuver monk is and post it later today if I can find it relatively easily.

[sideswipe]

snip*
Look at the Monk's issues: MAD: The Monk needs Str, Dex, Con and Wis, in abundance. Adding maneuvers doesn't make him less MAD.

if you are a good monk you can take intuitive attack and hit using wisdom.
become a necropoliton (as it is one of the undead that have no level adjustment and are not innately evil, allowing you to remain good) so you have no con to worry about.
you can then concentrate on making wisdom really big, and maybe dex for AC and other bits. str to hit is replaced by wisdom so you only need to find some bonus damage, which is easy enough to get.

this helps make monks less MAD, as you only need 2 ability scores.

[Red Fel]

if you are a good monk you can take intuitive attack and hit using wisdom.
become a necropoliton (as it is one of the undead that have no level adjustment and are not innately evil, allowing you to remain good) so you have no con to worry about.
you can then concentrate on making wisdom really big, and maybe dex for AC and other bits. str to hit is replaced by wisdom so you only need to find some bonus damage, which is easy enough to get.

this helps make monks less MAD, as you only need 2 ability scores.

First, Intuitive Attack isn't just Good, it's Exalted, which should (in theory) impose some more stringent requirements on how the PC is played; Necropolitan has its own bag of worms to worry about; yes, they are solutions, but only in part.

Second, the issue was whether "giving the monk class some maneuvers help offset the normal negatives a monk class has[.]" Monks, by default, are MAD. Coming up with non-maneuver solutions to a Monk's MADness doesn't actually address the question, which is whether adding maneuvers offsets the negatives of the class.

There are ways to somewhat un-break the Monk. But that's not what the OP was asking. The OP was asking whether adding maneuvers will do it. And maneuvers, alone, aren't enough.

[Fax Celestis]

if you are a good monk you can take intuitive attack and hit using wisdom.
become a necropoliton (as it is one of the undead that have no level adjustment and are not innately evil, allowing you to remain good) so you have no con to worry about.
you can then concentrate on making wisdom really big, and maybe dex for AC and other bits. str to hit is replaced by wisdom so you only need to find some bonus damage, which is easy enough to get.

this helps make monks less MAD, as you only need 2 ability scores.

If the answer to a class's problems are "all decent members of this class are zombie meditants", it's a bad class.

[Segev]

Hm. What if the Monk got:

Warblade Maneuver/Stance progression/recharge mechanic
Swordsage Discipline access
Full initiator level
Soul Knife's enhancement bonus equivalency progression applied to unarmed strike

Biggest problem is that the movement bonuses still conflict with the desire to stand there and pummel for a full attack. Interestingly, it shifts the focus from the increased move speed conflicting with full attack to the full attack conflicting with the increased move speed and the desire to use maneuvers.

Maybe using a Flurry becomes the recharge mechanic, rather than the Warblade's more generic "make an attack or a standard action doing nothing."

[sideswipe]

First, Intuitive Attack isn't just Good, it's Exalted, which should (in theory) impose some more stringent requirements on how the PC is played; Necropolitan has its own bag of worms to worry about; yes, they are solutions, but only in part.

Second, the issue was whether "giving the monk class some maneuvers help offset the normal negatives a monk class has[.]" Monks, by default, are MAD. Coming up with non-maneuver solutions to a Monk's MADness doesn't actually address the question, which is whether adding maneuvers offsets the negatives of the class.

There are ways to somewhat un-break the Monk. But that's not what the OP was asking. The OP was asking whether adding maneuvers will do it. And maneuvers, alone, aren't enough.

i already posted an answer to the op. mentioning giving it warblade progression but with more monk based disciplines.

that was in answer to another post which was talking about the flaws of a monk and saying that maneuvers do not solve MAD. this was my attempt of making monks a little less MAD.



If the answer to a class's problems are "all decent members of this class are zombie meditants", it's a bad class.

yes monk is a very bad class. maneuvers help, but it was just an exercise in making them less mad. and to do so requires a lot of work and a potentially very unorthodox character. but still one that could be very flavourful.

to both: im not saying "this is the fix" more just debating that it is possible to build a good monk even with the MAD and all its flaws, even without cheese.
i will again mention i have provided my opinion on what a monk should be given with regards to maneuvers, i was just replying to other posts.



Hm. What if the Monk got:

Warblade Maneuver/Stance progression/recharge mechanic
Swordsage Discipline access
Full initiator level
Soul Knife's enhancement bonus equivalency progression applied to unarmed strike

Biggest problem is that the movement bonuses still conflict with the desire to stand there and pummel for a full attack. Interestingly, it shifts the focus from the increased move speed conflicting with full attack to the full attack conflicting with the increased move speed and the desire to use maneuvers.

Maybe using a Flurry becomes the recharge mechanic, rather than the Warblade's more generic "make an attack or a standard action doing nothing."

martial adepts are usually better at one big strike over a lot of small strikes, as their maneuvers usage of actions is more like a spells. the maneuvers include strikes, not power up existing abilities (most of the time and not including boosts) so a martial adept monk would usually forgo its flurry in favour of its other strikes, though not always.

you could maybe argue that a decisive strike monk could use it with a maneuver.... but thats very iffy, and most wouldn't allow it except to allow melee to have nice things and we all know melee cannot and will not have nice things!

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98238-Class-3-5e-The-How-It-Should-Be-Monk&p=5398242#post5398242

Possibly relevant?

[sideswipe]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98238-Class-3-5e-The-How-It-Should-Be-Monk&p=5398242#post5398242

Possibly relevant?

a more unique but similar view. i like it, if i ever play with any experienced players again as a DM i would allow that.

[Segev]

martial adepts are usually better at one big strike over a lot of small strikes, as their maneuvers usage of actions is more like a spells. the maneuvers include strikes, not power up existing abilities (most of the time and not including boosts)

I've personally always found the "one big strike" their standard action maneuvers give them to be significantly weaker than finding ways to simply full attack. For this reason, I tend to bypass strikes that don't have unusual tactical options rather than serving as "5d6 extra damage" or the like. Setting Sun has some good ones. Diamond Mind's counters are interesting. A lot of stances have neat features. But too many maneuvers are "do an attack, plus lackluster extra damage," and really, you're probably better off charging, especially if you can get pounce.

[Lans]

Look at the Monk's issues: MAD: The Monk needs Str, Dex, Con and Wis, in abundance. Adding maneuvers doesn't make him less MAD. Weapons: Without a Necklace of Natural Weapons, the Monk's signature - his unarmed strikes - is an embarrassment. Yes, eventually they become Lawful and Adamantine, but that's when the rest of your party has +4 Flaming Burst Vorpal Omnibane Gigaswords. You can grab Monk weapons, but they tend to have worse damage than your unarmed strikes. A first-level Fighter can pick up a +1 Longsword and be more impressive. Some maneuvers (e.g. Stone Dragon) can help him overcome DR and such, but they generally come at a cost of iterative attacks. Others (e.g. Punishing Stance) add a passive damage to all attacks, but may come with a malus of their own (e.g. Punishing Stance penalizes the Monk's already-low AC). AC: Speaking of, there's the fact that you're basically dependent on Wis and Bracers of Armor for your AC. Yes, AC doesn't scale well, but it's pretty useful to have at least a baseline, and Monk definitively doesn't. There are a few maneuvers that can rectify this (e.g. Wall of Blades), but on the whole, that's not what they do. Out of Combat Options: Melee generally doesn't get them. Rogue gets some skill boosts, lucky him, but Fighters and Monks draw the short straws. Maneuvers don't particularly help in that field, either.
Bottom line, maneuvers add more versatility to combat. More options. Monk doesn't just need more combat options; he needs more substance. He needs a better way to deal and take damage, less dependence on myriad ability scores, and more options out of combat. Maneuvers don't provide enough of this; those that do come from various and sundry disciplines, which would make choosing a cohesive and thematic maneuver list painful.

Manuevers reduce the need for the stats, healing from devoted spirit and DR from Stone Dragon and the various AC boosts and miss chances reduce the need for the defensive stats, the boosts and strikes can mitigate the need for the offense increase. Them having multiple high stats will still be nice
, but the won't be dependent on them

Manuevers bring some skill boosts, extra sensory options like scent, movement options, for out of combat versatility

Edit The monk can use weapon finesse instead if intuitive strike, I don't see wisdom as being much better than dex