Falling enemies and timing. Rule Clarification

[Silva Stormrage]

In a current encounter there is a situation that needs resolving.

An incoporeal undead is being grappled by an ectoplasmic whip held by a PC. The incorporeal undead is currently next to another PC (A druid) that is being held afloat by effectively a swift action to maintain telekinesis effect.

The undead is armed and has an incorporeal touch attack.

The undead uses its swift action to use the telekinesis to break the grapple (This part is house ruled into the incorporeal undead's abilities as I am not 100% sure you can do that normally). This obviously causes the druid to fall. But does this falling provoke an AOO?

The druid is released when the undead is still grappled and thus can't threaten. But the undead breaks free with a swift action. Does the druid fall 10ft in however long a swift action takes? I assumed it was instantaneous like quicken spells.

Any clarification for RAW or RACSD (Rules as common sense dictates) would be appreciated. This AOO is crucial for the battle so it is somewhat important.

[Fax Celestis]

RAW, he left a square, he provokes. Game doesn't care how you leave a square: bull-rush targets provoke from people you push them by, for instance.

[Silva Stormrage]

No the fact that falling provokes isn't the issue. The problem is that when the druid begins falling the undead is currently grappling and thus can't threaten an area. As the telekinesis that breaks the grapple was holding the druid up in the air.

[Fax Celestis]

If the Druid is falling, then he's not grappled. There's no delay for when effects end.

If he's falling and is still grappled the ghost is coming with him. If he's falling and not grappled, the ghost gets an aoo.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ah I see the confusion. The whip is not held by the Druid it is instead held by another PC. I edited the first post to clarify.

[Psyren]

What's an "ectoplasmic whip," and how is it getting around the incorporeal rules?


Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions.

[bjoern]

What's an "ectoplasmic whip," and how is it getting around the incorporeal rules?


Come on man! Its the proton gun from ghostbusters keep up. :)
This coupled with the "incorpeal in a bag of holding" thread and its like a medieval ghostbusters.

[Segev]

My understanding and how I'd run it (were I trying to be as close to the RAW as I could), barring somebody coming in with better rules savvy to contradict me, is:

The moment the ghost uses the free action to free himself, causing the effect on the druid to end. The decision not to maintain the TK effect causes the druid to immediately fall, which is resolved now. The falling rules don't provide a time-to-fall clause; you basically are on the ground that moment, as far as the rules go. (This means you really need house rules to run aerial combat should falling ever be a thing.) The druid is on the ground by the time the ghost is free of the whip.

Again, that's how I think it works and how I'd run it, but somebody with actual rules citations could persuade me otherwise.

[Fax Celestis]

Come on man! Its the proton gun from ghostbusters keep up. :)
This coupled with the "incorpeal in a bag of holding" thread and its like a medieval ghostbusters.

Who ya gonna send a carrier pigeon to?

[Fax Celestis]

My understanding and how I'd run it (were I trying to be as close to the RAW as I could), barring somebody coming in with better rules savvy to contradict me, is:

The moment the ghost uses the free action to free himself, causing the effect on the druid to end. The decision not to maintain the TK effect causes the druid to immediately fall, which is resolved now. The falling rules don't provide a time-to-fall clause; you basically are on the ground that moment, as far as the rules go. (This means you really need house rules to run aerial combat should falling ever be a thing.) The druid is on the ground by the time the ghost is free of the whip.

Again, that's how I think it works and how I'd run it, but somebody with actual rules citations could persuade me otherwise.

It's not teleportation, so he still has to move (150' on the first round, 300' on subsequent rounds), which means he leaves a threatened square. If the ghost broke grapple, it happens instantaneously: there's no delay on action resolution. Which means the ghost threatens when the Druid falls, which means he leaves a threatened square, the ghost gets an aoo, and then he gets a face full of falling damage.

[Psyren]

Come on man! Its the proton gun from ghostbusters keep up. :)
This coupled with the "incorpeal in a bag of holding" thread and its like a medieval ghostbusters.

How am I supposed to keep up with houserules? :smalltongue:

You can't grapple or manipulate incorporeal creatures unless specifically stated otherwise.

[Segev]

It's not teleportation, so he still has to move (150' on the first round, 300' on subsequent rounds)

Ah, there are rules for falling speeds! Okay, I withdraw my statement there.

More notably, unless the rules state otherwise, he wouldn't "move" until his turn, so whether the ghost breaks grapple "instantaneously" or not, the druid's turn is not simultaneous with the ghost's, and the ghost breaks free on the ghost's turn. The druid doesn't have a turn where he's not TK'd until after the ghost's turn on which the ghost frees itself.

On the druid's next turn, the druid moves, provoking the AoO (unless the druid has some means of avoiding said provocation).

[Fax Celestis]

Ah, there are rules for falling speeds! Okay, I withdraw my statement there.

More notably, unless the rules state otherwise, he wouldn't "move" until his turn, so whether the ghost breaks grapple "instantaneously" or not, the druid's turn is not simultaneous with the ghost's, and the ghost breaks free on the ghost's turn. The druid doesn't have a turn where he's not TK'd until after the ghost's turn on which the ghost frees itself.

On the druid's next turn, the druid moves, provoking the AoO (unless the druid has some means of avoiding said provocation).

inb4 "can I use the withdraw action while falling"

[Oddman80]

The example of a person being bull rushed triggering AoO's from those other than the one doing the bull rush is an interesting point. There a number of different feats, maneuvers, and spells (not to mention psionics) that force a target to be moved. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that in all of these cases, the character that causes the movement DOES NOT get an AoO against the moving target. Only enemies that were not involved in the motion generation are free to take the AoO if the target moves out of squares that they threaten.

I believe the overarching idea is that AoO's can only occur when it is not your turn. It is something you can take advantage of in those non-existent moments between your turns, because you aren't busy doing anything else at the time. If you pick up and throw an enemy, you can't also punch the guy as he leaves the adjacent square. It physically wouldn't work.

I will concede that a flying ghost, breaking a grapple could conceivably (if somehow this were real) still drop kick the dude as he began his fall... But the point remains, you have used your standard action to break the grapple, it is still your turn, and you have no ability to now attack unless you are playing with action points. In the 6 seconds of your turn, the dude will have fallen. If the fall was from more than 10' in the air, the DM should have the guy roll a tumble check to see if he can ignore up to 20' of the fall distance prior to rolling d6's for fall damage.

If there were multiple ghosts up there , then sure - they might get AoO's on the guy as he fell.... But I don't think that was the case.

[Segev]

Well...

If you were to ready an action to cast a spell in response to Fighter Dude attacking Rogue Dudette, and you're adjacent to Fighter Dude, he'd still get an AoO against you for provoking by casting in his threatened square, despite it being his turn.

(Yes, that's a contrived situation, but it is technically possible within the rules.)

[Vortenger]

It's not teleportation, so he still has to move (150' on the first round, 300' on subsequent rounds), which means he leaves a threatened square. If the ghost broke grapple, it happens instantaneously: there's no delay on action resolution. Which means the ghost threatens when the Druid falls, which means he leaves a threatened square, the ghost gets an aoo, and then he gets a face full of falling damage.

May I please get the location for those rules? I've been looking for something concrete like that for nearly 10 years of D&D.

[Fax Celestis]

May I please get the location for those rules? I've been looking for something concrete like that for nearly 10 years of D&D.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040629a


Minimum Forward Speed:If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it stalls.

A creature in a stall falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn't bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a

Stalling and Freefalling

Stalling represents the failure of a flying creature's wings (or other motive agent) to keep the creature aloft. The rules are a little sketchy when it comes to what happened during a stall, so here are some unofficial suggestions.

A stalling creature falls, but it wings provide considerable drag and tend to slow the creature's fall. As noted earlier, a creature falls 150 feet during the first round spent stalling, and it falls 300 feet each round thereafter. Wingless flyers that stall still have some residual lift and fall more slowly than non-flyers.

A flying creature that cannot maintain its minimum forward speed because it has been rendered unconscious, has become paralyzed, has become magically held, or becomes unable to move for some other reason stalls at the beginning of its first turn after the debilitating effect occurs.

A stalling creature can take no actions, except to recover from the stall. It loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while stalling. As noted earlier, recovering from a stall requires a Reflex save (DC 20).

A stalling creature falls more or less straight down, but it also tumbles and spins erratically. Melee or ranged attacks made against a stalling creature have a 20% miss chance.

A nonflyer (or flyer falling through the air) freefalls rather than stalls. A creature in freefall drops 500 feet the first round and 1,000 feet each round thereafter. While in freefall, a creature can attempt a single action each round. It must make a Dexterity or Strength check (creature's choice, DC 15) to avoid dropping any item it tries to use. Spellcasting is possible, but doing so requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) and if the spell has a material component, the creature must first check to see if it drops the component.

Deliberately Freefalling: A flying creature can simply stop flying and allow itself to drop like a stone. Exiting a freefall requires a full-round action (during which the creature falls 500 or 1,000 feet). A creature with Perfect maneuverability exits a freefall automatically, less maneuverable creatures require a Reflex save (DC 20). If the check fails, the creature stalls (even if it does not have a minimum forward speed), though during its next turn it can attempt to recover from the stall after falling 300 feet.

A creature with average, poor, or clumsy maneuverability suffers 3d6 points of nonlethal damage when it exits a freefall (or when it stalls from a failed attempt to leave freefall) due to the stress on its body. A freefalling creature with a fly speed can automatically recover from a freefall if it receives a feather fall spell, but only after falling 60 feet; the creature suffers no damage from the recovery.

[Vortenger]

Thank you kindly.

[Oddman80]

Well...

If you were to ready an action to cast a spell in response to Fighter Dude attacking Rogue Dudette, and you're adjacent to Fighter Dude, he'd still get an AoO against you for provoking by casting in his threatened square, despite it being his turn.

(Yes, that's a contrived situation, but it is technically possible within the rules.)

Well, the readied action causes an immediate interrupt of the ghost's turn in order to resolve a residual piece of fighter dude's turn. So when the dude completes his readied action, it is in fact his turn then, and not the ghost's (hence the change to initiative order once the readied action is completed). Once the readied action (and triggered AoO) are resolved, it is now the ghost's turn, and if still possible, may finish his attempt to break the ectoplasm whip grapple (and would once again be unable to attack the fighter dude when the grapple break causes him to fall).

[Silva Stormrage]

How am I supposed to keep up with houserules? :smalltongue:

You can't grapple or manipulate incorporeal creatures unless specifically stated otherwise.

Ah sorry, yes thats a house rule. It is from a homebrew class (ErrantX's generator to be precise) and it lets the character generate a whip that has improved grab. Since the weapon is currently enhanced with ghost touch I let it grapple the undead despite normal rules.

Thanks for the help guys I think I will rule that the Druid falls too fast for the undead to get the AOO. With the 150 fall speed that means he is falling at 25ft per second. So thats a rapid decline and even though swifts are supposed to be instant there is some delay with the whip being thrown off him.

Thanks for all the help.