About skills

[hymer]

I’d like to start a general discussion about skills, so I’ve given each of them two ratings below. I’d like to hear what you think about any or all of it.
The ratings below were given as best I could as a general rule, as some skills are obviously more or less useful to certain classes or builds than others. In some cases, I give a range rather than a specific number, but I’ve tried to be clear.

Edit: As I've been educated, I've altered the scores. The stricken numbers were my initial rating.

Skill (relevant ability): Short description
Mechanical: Number from 1 to 5, addressing the mechanical usefulness of the skill
Fluff: Number from 1 to 5, addressing the fluffiness of the skill

Acrobatics (dex): Mostly balance, but also artfulness in jumps.
Mechanical: 2 4. Useful for resisting graples and shoves. Since Fly requires concentration, this ability is not made wholly obsolete by it.
Fluff: 3. This should be easy to weave into the story and make you seem elegantly impressive.

Animal Handling (wis): Riding and dealing with beasts.
Mechanical: 2, 4 if you’re a mounted type. Animals are found nearly anywhere, but aren’t that hard to deal with or handle in general.
Fluff: 4. Horse whispering, falcon hunting, dog heeling; all are signs of sensitive badassery.

Arcana (int): Knowledge of just about anything magical.
Mechanical: 5. Magic is all over the place, and it’s powerful. Any knowledge of it means you have a better chance of survival.
Fluff: 3. While knowledge can be impressive, you will tend to get overshadowed by what you have knowledge of in this case.

Athletics (str): The ability to climb, jump and swim.
Mechanical: 3 5. Can be useful in battles to jump over obstacles, and the ability to get to places by climbing and swimming is useful in other cases, making it pretty solid all-round. This goes double for melee. To boot, it helps against and with grapples and shoves. Since Fly requires concentration, this ability is not made wholly obsolete by it.
Fluff: 3 or 2. It’s decent fluff for the active, the stealthy or the outdoorsy. For others less so.

Deception (cha): Deceiving people.
Mechanical: 4 or 5. In some campaigns this is absolutely essential. In most, it’s just very useful in many situations.
Fluff: 5. Make whatever impression you want when you want.

History (int): Knowledge of the written past.
Mechanical: 2-4. It depends heavily on the type of campaign. The knowledge it can impart is often highly useful, but it may be very rarely seen by the average murder hobo.
Fluff: 4. This is the stuff that makes you seem erudite.

Insight (wis): Understanding people.
Mechanical: 4. People are everywhere. Understanding them and disbelieving their deceptions gives you a definite edge.
Fluff: 4. Confidently and correctly using this skill establishes your character as someone to reckon with.

Intimidation (cha): Being frightening.
Mechanical: 3. While often useful, it carries significant risk of escalating a situation to violence.
Fluff: 5. Frighteningly (if you’ll pardon me) impressive, strongly establishing yourself every time you use it successfully.

Investigation (int): Having a clue about clues.
Mechanical: 3. While situational, it is very useful when called for. There is some wiggle room for the player to make this skill work harder, if you take the time to investigate more things.
Fluff: 4. Well, it’s Sherlock Holmes, innit? Quite impressive when you show off with it.

Medicine (wis): Disease and wounds.
Mechanical: 1. Stablizing the dying is better done with cheap equipment that works every time, and people being sick is rare, and better dealt with by magic.
Fluff: 4. Healers are glamorous and seen as useful despite the mechanical problems.

Nature (int): Plants, animals, weather. You know, the greeny-brown things on the far side of a car window if you go too far.
Mechanical: 1. Situationally useful, but can be fairly good when it does come into play. Tends to state the obvious. Much of the uses you might expect from this skill can be found in Handle Animal and Survival.
Fluff: 3. Can help establish your character as a capable, knowledgeable individual.

Perception (wis): Sensing stuff.
Mechanical: 5. This may well be the most often rolled skill check, and it deals with dangerous things like ambushes and traps among other things. A top notch skill.
Fluff: 4. Pointing out stuff to the less observant is cool.

Performance (cha): Putting on a show.
Mechanical: 1 or 2. Situational at best, in some campaigns downright useless.
Fluff: 5. No better way to be a star than this.

Persuasion (cha): Getting people to see it your way.
Mechanical: 4 or 5. In some campaigns this is absolutely essential. In most, it’s just very useful in many situations.
Fluff: 4. Good people skills are inherently impressive.

Religion (int): Gods and worship.
Mechanical: 3. A little situational, but makes up for it with the knowledge often being fairly weird and hard to guess, so you can get a real boost from it.
Fluff: 4. Can definitely help establish your holy person as deep or your smart guy as experienced.

Sleight of Hand (dex): Surreptitious stealing or concealing things about your person.
Mechanical: 2. This is a useful skill when it’s called for, but it also comes with a certain degree of risk.
Fluff: 3. Good for making an impression, although calling attention to his skill makes it less useful.

Stealth (dex): The ability to be unnoticed.
Mechanical: 5. This is about as useful as skills get, and in a wide variety of situations.
Fluff: 4. Cat-like tread and sudden vanishing can be quite impressive.

Survival (wis): Track, hunt and general wilderness skill.
Mechanical: 3. You’re likely to spend some time in the outdoors, and knowledge gained from tracking is often instrumental in keeping options open.
Fluff: 4. Tracking and hunting are sure signs of badassery.

[Yorrin]

So I notice that you seem to hold the social skills in high regard and the knowledge skills overall got a low rating. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it is a bias you should be aware of. I also dont know why you ranked Athletics as low as you did mechanically, since in my experience it comes up at least as much as, say, Stealth.

[EvilAnagram]

You seem to underestimate Acrobatics and Athletics. These seem to come up in every module, and it's important to have at least two of them. You always have to outrun something or climb something or dodge something or whatever. They're situational, yes, but when you these situations are constantly popping up you may want to value the skills you need to deal with them.

[INDYSTAR188]

You should create a survey to get a representation of how the GiTP community values these skills. It might be an interesting exercise.

[TomPliss]

Yeap, the OP seems to forget one thing :
There is a bottomless pit in every dungeon designed around here.
And if there is a bridge, it will not stay long. Acro & Athle are always needed :)

[TripleD]

That's how medicine works in this edition?

I don't have the players handbook yet, but I was really hoping that they would beef up that skill a bit (e.g. Make it required for stabilization, remove "Cure Disease", etc.) as opposed to the absolute joke it was in 3e.

I really like role-playing a doctor or healer, but unless it's a magic-less campaign it's not looking like a high-priority skill.

[Human Paragon 3]

That's how medicine works in this edition?

I don't have the players handbook yet, but I was really hoping that they would beef up that skill a bit (e.g. Make it required for stabilization, remove "Cure Disease", etc.) as opposed to the absolute joke it was in 3e.

I really like role-playing a doctor or healer, but unless it's a magic-less campaign it's not looking like a high-priority skill.

In a true emergency situation, you'll be happy to have the medicine skill. Characters can easily die if not stabalized! When the cleric goes down, things get real, and characters die.

[Demonic Spoon]

In a true emergency situation, you'll be happy to have the medicine skill. Characters can easily die if not stabalized! When the cleric goes down, things get real, and characters die.

Even if magical items won't be as prominent as in 3.5 or 4e, it still seems like most parties beyond very low level will have a healing potion or something of the sort on hand to trivialize the need for this. Also, "when the cleric goes down" is the only time when the skill is even vaguely useful. In all other circumstances, magical healing completely negates the need for this mundane skill, which seems like a design failing.

In my opinion, there should be a way to make a medicine skill check to heal hitpoint damage when out of combat, but perhaps only if the user is proficient.

[EvilAnagram]

In my opinion, there should be a way to make a medicine skill check to heal hitpoint damage when out of combat, but perhaps only if the user is proficient.

I already house ruled that proficiency in Medicine will allow you to use a healing kit to heal damage and set broken bones out of combat.

[hymer]

@ Yorrin: I’m sure my selection says more about the campaigns I’m used to than anything else. I think the lore skills even out to about average, though. Nature 1, Arcana 5, History swingy, Religion decent. Unless you count Medicine as a Knowledge skill. And giving Athletics a 3 is the average, it’s not a bad rating. :smallsmile:

@ EvilAnagram: I’m not sure what you mean by it being important to have two of Acrobatics and Athletics. I’m glad to see that the module designers have included more of these skills than I’ve been used to seeing them.

@ INDYSTAR188: You’re right, it would be interesting. You know how to do that?

@ TripleD: The Medicine skill can diagnose illness and stabilize a dying character. Which is nice, but for 5gp you get 10 uses of a healer’s kit, which stabilizes automatically without rolling.

@ Human Paragon 3: Maybe at level 1 when you’ve forgotten to buy a healer’s kit. But even then, all you miss out on from not being proficient in Medicine is the +2 from proficiency.

@ Demonic Spoon: I’ve been considering giving the Healer feat for free to anyone who gets proficient in Medicine, though perhaps switching the feat's 1d6+4 to 1d6+proficiency bonus or some such. It still isn’t very good, but at least it isn’t useless.

[Mandrake]

I know it doesn't help Medicine too much, but this skill can be used as "social" skill too - you tend to the sick citizens, or make wounded soldiers comfortable or anything of the sorts.
Also, maybe give the party a boost for some other physical skills - drink this, it helps with the cold; rub this on, your muscles won't be hurting that bad when you run.

Just a suggestion.

[Demonic Spoon]

@ Demonic Spoon: I’ve been considering giving the Healer feat for free to anyone who gets proficient in Medicine, though perhaps switching the feat's 1d6+4 to 1d6+proficiency bonus or some such. It still isn’t very good, but at least it isn’t useless.


I think it's perfectly fine. I don't think the point is to use it in combat (in fact, I'm on the fence as to whether or not it should be usable in combat at all...). The utility is that it allows you to patch people up post-fight so you're always going into each successive fight with full HP.

Given that the only other way to do that is a short rest (which is limited) or have someone blow valuable spell slots on magical healing, that seems pretty potent.

Personally, given that HP is an abstraction and not a true measure of toughness (being stabbed in the neck might be represented by 50 HP of damage at level 5 but only 10 at level 1), I'd say screw the feat and just allow a healer to spent 5 minutes healing the player's hit dice with the healer's kit.

[hymer]

@ Demonic Spoon: The healing from Healer only works once per rest on any given character.

[Demonic Spoon]

Oh, wow.

Yeah, that's awful. I'd houserule the hell out of that into what I mentioned above.

edit: Sorry for derailing the thread with houserule discussion. I'd perhaps bump up medicine to a 2 or 1.5 since while it's useful rarely, potentially saving a PC from death is pretty strong.

[INDYSTAR188]

OP, I'm not certain if there is a way to create a survey on the forum but Survey Monkey (https://www.surveymonkey.com/) would do the trick!

Regarding your ratings, I have to agree with Arcana being a 5. Perception, Stealth, Bluff, Persuasion, Insight, and whatever skill correlates to Thievery are all the most frequently used in my campaign.

[hymer]

Oh, wow.

Yeah, that's awful. I'd houserule the hell out of that into what I mentioned above.

edit: Sorry for derailing the thread with houserule discussion. I'd perhaps bump up medicine to a 2 or 1.5 since while it's useful rarely, potentially saving a PC from death is pretty strong.

No worries, at least we're talking about skills. :smallsmile: You realize that saving people from death is the use of the healer's bag, right? 5gp for ten uses? You use the bag, not the skill. You can have 8 wisdom and never have heard of Medicine, but with an action and a use from the healer's bag, you stabilize a dying creature without fail.


OP, I'm not certain if there is a way to create a survey on the forum but Survey Monkey (https://www.surveymonkey.com/) would do the trick!

Regarding your ratings, I have to agree with Arcana being a 5. Perception, Stealth, Bluff, Persuasion, Insight, and whatever skill correlates to Thievery are all the most frequently used in my campaign.

Ah, well, CBA to do that. :smallredface: But feel free if you can.
Sounds like we play similar campaigns.

So, let's talk about Athletics and Acrobatics everyone, since this is where people seem to disagree most with me. What sort of DCs are we talking about, and what does it accomplish? Can you give me some sample uses?

[EvilAnagram]

So, let's talk about Athletics and Acrobatics everyone, since this is where people seem to disagree most with me. What sort of DCs are we talking about, and what does it accomplish? Can you give me some sample uses?

Let's give an example from my friend, who played a bard named Henchman 24. If you're wondering, he did sound exactly like the Venture character.

The very first thing he wanted to do on hearing that the river flowing through town was **** in the river. Because at 24 years old my friend is incredibly mature. I told him he could **** on the river, but he insisted that he would only **** in the river. I asked him to make an Acrobatics check not to slip, then an Athletics check to break the ice by "jumping on it." He passed the Acrobatics and, naturally, crit the Athletics. So he fell into the river. He then had to make and Athletics check not to drown, followed by a check, assisted by his teammate, to pull himself out of the river.

Later, after antagonizing the guards and accidentally convincing the mayor that he was behind a recent undead incursion, he had to make an Athletics check to outrun the guards. Of course, he crit again and led them in a circle around a shop while another player played Yakety Sax on his phone.

When they finally made their way into the dungeon in which the big bad actually lurked, Acrobatics checks were used to dodge falling rocks and pass a swinging blade, while Athletics checks were used to scale a wall and bypass a puzzle by knocking over a statue.

[hymer]

@ EvilAnagram: Thank you for those delightful anecdotes. :smallbiggrin:
It occurs to me that a player uninterested in perpetrating four-letter words in the river could have avoided the first ... business. As for the second scene, why would you call for an Athletics check? I mean, it makes some intuitive sense, but Athletics has three examples of uses: Climb, jump and swim. In the real world, athletics is jumping, running and throwing, nothing about climbing and swimming, so I can see why you'd do incude running. But is there any place in the rules we have that supports letting people run faster with Athletics? That would be news to me.

[EvilAnagram]

@ EvilAnagram: Thank you for those delightful anecdotes. :smallbiggrin:
It occurs to me that a player uninterested in perpetrating four-letter words in the river could have avoided the first ... business. As for the second scene, why would you call for an Athletics check? I mean, it makes some intuitive sense, but Athletics has three examples of uses: Climb, jump and swim. In the real world, athletics is jumping, running and throwing, nothing about climbing and swimming, so I can see why you'd do incude running. But is there any place in the rules we have that supports letting people run faster with Athletics? That would be news to me.

Since it was clearly a situation in which he was running from something, i.e., a pursuit in which the goal was not to travel a certain distance, but rather to outperform the competition (guards). I decided that the intuitive way to simulate pursuit would be to have opposed Athletics tests. It may not be spelled out in the rules, but I feel like it's like the game gave me a perfect tool to use, and it would have been foolish of me to ignore it.

[hymer]

Fair enough. Here's how I would probably have handled it: First I'd compare speeds. Then narrate the effect, and ask the player what he wants to do (I'm assuming it's a he, based on the frozen river thing :smallwink:).
If he's faster for some reason, he'll outrun them, no check needed.
If he isn't, I'd tell him it looks like they're slowly gaining on him, or that they're about the same speed, depending on how fast they each are. Then I'd ask what he does to shake them off?
He could try to find some obstacles, stalls to jump or fences to climb (athletics). He could try to tire them out (con check, probably modified by what people are carrying). He could try to run into a crowd or around a bunch of corners (acrobatics or stealth). He could find an intersection and leave a clue he was going right, and in fact go left (a hat, a cloak; bluff check). And so on, whatever he would like to try. If he's slower than them, he doesn't get many tries.

[Muenster Man]

While rating the fluff value of each skill is naturally going to be problematic, if you're going to do it, I thought I may as well throw in my opinion. I wouldn't rate Perception and Insight nearly so high. Probably a 1 or 2 for fluff. They're generally passive and uninteresting, even if they are extremely useful. Also, if you're going to have a scale going from 1-5, you may as well use all 5 numbers :smalltongue:

As for mechanical stuff, I see Athletics being super versatile for reasons listed up thread, and the fact that it can be used for both initiating and resisting grapples, shoves, and similar combat maneuvers. Probably a 4-5 IMO.

[Person_Man]

My personal experience with 5E Skills:


Every Player Should Probably Take:

Stealth: Combat is generally quick and deadly, so Surprising your enemies can make a huge difference. Have the Rogue or Bard with Expertise scout ahead, then report back to the rest of the party to set up ambushes whenever possible. Using Heavy Armor (which imposes Disadvantage on Stealth) and dumping Dex is a trap option, since Stealth is so useful, Dex Saves are common, and Initiative is crazy important.

Perception: Your DM will probably try to have enemies ambush you at a similar rate that you try to ambush your enemies.

Athletics OR Acrobatics: Used to initiate and/or resist Shove and Grapple, which can quickly push, trip, or immobilize you. Can also be used to overcome a variety of difficult terrain and environmental problems.


Useful for 1 player in each party to have:

Arcana or History or Nature or Religion or Survival: Each is useful in certain situations, and DMs often like to bury clues or helpful information in knowledge skills. But once the Monster Manual comes out, metagame knowledge often replaces actual in game knowledge skills, and many powerful divination spells exist. So just divvy them up and have each player take one if reasonably possible.

Deception or Intimidation or Persuasion and/or Insight: Interacting with NPCs is going to happen in virtually every game. So at least one player needs to be the party face. If you have more then one Cha and/or Wis based class, then you can split these up, and take turns in the spotlight.

Investigation: This should really be part of Perception. But since it's not, make the Wizard take it, or if you don't have a Wizard, whoever your forward scout is.


Rarely useful

Animal Handling: By current RAW you can use a mount to qualify for Sneak Attack. But in most cases, you can just "flank" with an ally. Other then that, mounted combat (even with the Feat of that name) isn't particularly useful, since movement (increased from your mount) isn't tracked closely in theater of the mind combat, and there's not a damage multiplier or other amazing benefit from being mounted. Speak With Animal spell replaces communicating with animals. And animals in general just aren't a huge threat outside of low levels.

Performance, Sleight of Hand, and Medicine: Almost entirely useless.

[hymer]

@ Muenster Man: Excellent point on the shove and grapple! If there's any of that done (and there should be), Athletics in particular will be much more useful.
I'm sorry there isn't a score of '1' for fluff, but I really couldn't find a skill you can't use for at least some flavour. You won't be deciding when it comes up, so that's a mark against them, but "No we can't. Because we're being hunted." and "You're a black liar, sir." are pretty cool things to say in the right circumstances. Those are from Jurassic Park and Lonesome Dove, btw.

@ Person_Man: Thank you! A very comprehensive post! Looks like we mostly agree, except perhaps on Nature and Handle Animal. On the latter, you may well be right. It seems you mostly make a check when the mount dies, so even if you do ride something, proficiency is rather wasted. I imagined a hafling rogue early on when I saw how simple mounted combat is, I thought that could be good, helping shore up the movement and letting you sneak attack. But then, what to do with your rogue bonus action?

[Muenster Man]

@ Muenster Man: Excellent point on the shove and grapple! If there's any of that done (and there should be), Athletics in particular will be much more useful.
I'm sorry there isn't a score of '1' for fluff, but I really couldn't find a skill you can't use for at least some flavour. You won't be deciding when it comes up, so that's a mark against them, but "No we can't. Because we're being hunted." and "You're a black liar, sir." are pretty cool things to say in the right circumstances. Those are from Jurassic Park and Lonesome Dove, btw.
Fair enough, they do provide a good platform for calling someone else on their shenanigans or leading the whole party into not walking into a trap.