[PF] Brawler, A Better Monk?

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler

For those of you who don't know Pathfinder has released its Hybrid classes. One of which is the Brawler which is a Hybrid of the Fighter and Monk class.

Now I was curious if anyone has played one of the final products and found if it works better or not then the Monk. As its Martial Training says "A brawler's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that modify either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." does this mean I can enchant my Brawlers fist with +1,+2, etc?

Adds full BAB and Light Armor Prof with a AC bonus while wearing it or no armor.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Ok adding this as a second post because it has to do with a different ability one that is not in line with the monk.

The ability to switch out feats on the fly by using wither Immediate, Swift, or Move actions by level 10 you can switch out up to 3 feats (Which you need to meet all the requirements of) as a Move action but you are limited to a daily limit of 3+1/2 Brawler level (So at level 10 you can perform 8 switches in a day) now each feat you switch out uses up one of the daily uses and the feat is switched for 1 minute but this still seems like a major power up for a class, especially say you like to employ the Monk Style feats

[Red Fel]

Ok adding this as a second post because it has to do with a different ability one that is not in line with the monk.

The ability to switch out feats on the fly by using wither Immediate, Swift, or Move actions by level 10 you can switch out up to 3 feats (Which you need to meet all the requirements of) as a Move action but you are limited to a daily limit of 3+1/2 Brawler level (So at level 10 you can perform 8 switches in a day) now each feat you switch out uses up one of the daily uses and the feat is switched for 1 minute but this still seems like a major power up for a class, especially say you like to employ the Monk Style feats

But if you want to employ the Style feats, why not just use the Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) archetype, and get them in full, and be able to use multiple at once?

Look at it this way. The Brawler can use Martial Flexibility 3 + 1/2 Brawler level times per day. At max, that's 13 times. The benefits last for one minute, which should cover most combats. However, you must meet all of the feat's prerequisites.

By contrast, the Master of Many Styles Monk gains a Style feat at 1st, 2nd, and every 4 levels thereafter. That's a total of 6 feats, but you get them absolutely, instead of for minutes a day, and you don't have to meet any prereqs. And some of them have annoying prereqs, such as skill ranks or racial restrictions. Additionally, higher levels of MoMS let you activate multiple stances at once, without limitation, as a swift action. (Later as a free action for 1 ki point.)

Now, I'm not saying that a MoMS is better overall than a Brawler. I don't think it is. But I am saying that, at least as far as Style feats go, Brawler doesn't particularly impress me; I think there are better uses for Martial Flexibility than those.

[fluke1993]

Or better yet combine both, have a bunch of style feats that can be swapped out on the fly, retain the ability to use two at once, and use MoMS to get style feats that you normally wouldn't have access to.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Some people feel a lot of the Styles do have a restrictive nature being only good in specific situations. Well I only suggested the styles feats to be useful because if you find yourself in a situation you can just use one of those flexible feats and help yourself out. And in character it just seems like your character can think quick on his feet.

Also I did note that the Brawler can use Monk weapons in flurry, but is not proficient in them.

[Propagandalf]

Haven't played a Brawler yet, but really really want to.

About Brawler's Unarmed Strikes and enchanting them: Doesn't a weapon need to be of Masterwork quality to be enchanted?
Heh, homebrew that if you take the Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) feat, then they count as masterwork and can be enchanted. :smallbiggrin:

As of the Martial Flexibility (Ex), It looks to be a really cool ability.
Need to trip an opponent? Now you can. You've been blinded? Now you have blind-fight. Step-up, bleed, weapon proficiency and of course DEATH FROM ABOVE! feats are all within your grasp.

As of the style feats and the Master of Many Styles archetypes: Why not take both?
The Brawler Monk 4th level
Brawler 1
Monk 1,2 (Master of Many Styles,Monk of the Iron(sacred) Mountain, Hungry Ghost Monk)
Brawler 2 (So a 4th lvl character)

Monk Abilities Replaced:
-Stunning Fist > Punishing Kick
-Evasion > Iron Monk (Toughness feat, +1 Natural Armor)
-Monk Bonus Feats > Bonus Style Feats 1&2 (Pummeling Style + Pummeling Charge)
-Flurry of Blows > Fuse Style

Feats:
1 Weapon Focus (UA Strike)
2 Pummeling Style
3 Pummeling Charge
3 Power Attack
4 Combat Expertise

Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)
You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry† class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

Pummeling Charge (Combat)
Your charge ends with a mighty haymaker.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style†; base attack bonus +12, brawler† level 8th, or monk level 8th.

Benefit: When using Pummeling Style, you can charge and make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.

Normal: Making a Pummeling Style attack is a full-round action.

Feats you can take with Martial Flexibility:
-Bleeding Attack
-Blind Fight
-Charge of the Righteous
-Cleave
-Imp. Disarm/Trip/Dirty Trick/Drag/Initiative/Overrun/Steal/Sunder/Grapple
-Death from Above
-Desperate Battler
-weapon proficiency
-Firebrand
-Furious Focus
-Intimidating Prowess
-Point Blank Shot
-Scorpion Style
-Step up
-Two-Handed Thrower
-Boar Style
-Dragon Style
-Snake Style

So, better than a monk? In some ways yes, but note wholly (since one can take more out of a monk in higher levels)

As an endnote, if I ever want to play, well, a brawler or a plain martial artist I'll play a Brawler. If I want to play a more mystical kung fu master, I'll play a monk.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Well recall Unarmed Strike is in the rank of Simple Weapons which you can make Masterwork, so thats not actually a bad idea. Also it says your strike is treated as Manufactured when needing to apply effects (Such as enhancement and enchantments)

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Man I have to start reading up on things now I am so behind.

Brawler gets access to Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/body-wrap-of-mighty-strikes) and the Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/brawling) armor Enhancement. Both of which a Monk cannot use.

+2 to Hit and Damage from Brawling armor (Light Armor or Mithral Medium) and a bonus +2 to Grapple checks.

and Mighty Strikes adds a bonus of +1-+7 once per round.. except if your BAB is +6 then it gives you 2 a round.. or when you get to +11 which makes it three a turn.

The +2 to hit from the Brawling armor, doesn't that basically remove the Two Weapon Fighting penalty?

All for the low low cost of a suit of Mithral Breastplate (4200) + 5000 (+1 Enhancement(1000) +1 Brawling(4000)) + 3000 (+1 Mighty Strikes) = 12.200 GP for a +3 to Hit +3 to Damage +2 to Grapple Check is that bad?

[Jacob.Tyr]

Man I have to start reading up on things now I am so behind.

Brawler gets access to Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/body-wrap-of-mighty-strikes) and the Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/brawling) armor Enhancement. Both of which a Monk cannot use.

+2 to Hit and Damage from Brawling armor (Light Armor or Mithral Medium) and a bonus +2 to Grapple checks.

and Mighty Strikes adds a bonus of +1-+7 once per round.. except if your BAB is +6 then it gives you 2 a round.. or when you get to +11 which makes it three a turn.

The +2 to hit from the Brawling armor, doesn't that basically remove the Two Weapon Fighting penalty?

All for the low low cost of a suit of Mithral Breastplate (4200) + 5000 (+1 Enhancement(1000) +1 Brawling(4000)) + 3000 (+1 Mighty Strikes) = 12.200 GP for a +3 to Hit +3 to Damage +2 to Grapple Check is that bad?
Uhh, you need to sum the enhancement bonuses to get the total cost, not add them like that. +1 and Brawling would cost the same as a +3 enhancement, so the total cost for the Mithral Breastplate +1 Brawling is 4200+9,000.

Edit: Why can't a monk use Body Wrap of Mighty Fists?

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

How does a +1 and a +1 equal +3?

Ok I guess they can, for some reason I had it in my head they couldn't. Though I don't think it works with Flurry (Given its restricts on how many hits and so forth)

[Jacob.Tyr]

How does a +1 and a +1 equal +3?

Ok I guess they can, for some reason I had it in my head they couldn't. Though I don't think it works with Flurry (Given its restricts on how many hits and so forth)
Oh wow, I assumed brawling was a +2. Sorry about that!

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

No but wait.. Would it be just 4000 not 5000 then? Since you have to pay for what your weapon will be?
So 4200 + 4000 + 3000= 11,200

[Larkas]

As its Martial Training says "A brawler's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that modify either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." does this mean I can enchant my Brawlers fist with +1,+2, etc?

That is practically a copy-paste from the monk's unarmed strike entry. If you haven't seen people enchanting monks' fists, that probably means you can't enchant brawlers' fists either. That has come up several times before regarding the monk, by the way, so that notion isn't exactly new.


+2 to Hit and Damage from Brawling armor (Light Armor or Mithral Medium) and a bonus +2 to Grapple checks.

(...)

All for the low low cost of a suit of Mithral Breastplate (4200) + 5000 (+1 Enhancement(1000) +1 Brawling(4000)) + 3000 (+1 Mighty Strikes) = 12.200 GP for a +3 to Hit +3 to Damage +2 to Grapple Check is that bad?

You do realize that you need Medium Armor Proficiency to properly use mithral breastplates in Pathfinder, right?

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I was under the impression that Mithral reduces the weight of the item and makes a medium armor count as light.
Edit: I see you are right, I never really ran into the issue before normally all the classes I use Mithral with can use Medium

And as far as the monk issue I am aware, By text you can enhance fists, its just the idea that makes it seem silly. But then again the Warpriest can add Enhancements to His Unarmed Attack should he choose to by calling on divine magics so why can't we just say someone person enhanced your body with the magical enhancement.

Ok so the formula would be Mithral Shirt (1100) + Masterwork (1000) + Brawling (4000) + Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes (3000)(+1)= 9100 GP. That would give you a +3 to Hit and Damage and a +2 to CMD with Grappling. The price is doable pretty early say around level 5.

[The Random NPC]

FYI, if you can reduce the ACP to 0, there's no penalty to wearing that armor. So Mithril Armored Coat can be worn without proficiency.
EDIT: Or Darkleaf Hide.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Except that Armored Coat doesnt give as much as a Mithral Shirt.

Though if you took Armor Expert and Armor Mastery traits it reduces the ACP by -1 each

[The Random NPC]

Except that Armored Coat doesnt give as much as a Mithral Shirt.

Though if you took Armor Expert and Armor Mastery traits it reduces the ACP by -1 each

I didn't say it would be a good option, just that it was an option. If you can reduce it by just one more, you can wear Full Plate. As it stands, you can wear Hellknight Plate, Field Plate, and any Medium armor.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Mithral -2 ACP
Masterwork -1 ACP
Armor Expert -1 ACP
Armor Master -1 ACP

So I could reduce a -5 ACP armor to 0

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I realize that is what you meant but I was showing the math as it were.

So with all its abilities to be a better Unarmed Fighter with tricks does it outpace the monk in doing what the monk is suppose to do?

I mean Steel-Breaker bypasses DR and Hardness with a swift action, and lets you sunder or disarm with bonuses.

[Arutema]

Mithral -2 ACP
Masterwork -1 ACP

So I could reduce a -5 ACP armor to 0

Doesn't stack, mithral armor is always of masterwork quality, but the -2 ACP for mithral replaces the -1 ACP from masterwork.

[The Random NPC]

Doesn't stack, mithral armor is always of masterwork quality, but the -2 ACP for mithral replaces the -1 ACP from masterwork.

Mithril is also -3.