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View Full Version : Pathfinder Creating a Joker Bard as a campaign BBEG - any advice?



Calemyr
2014-08-26, 10:39 AM
I'm running a pathfinder campaign and (after letting the players do their own thing for a few arcs) I'm about to unveil the big bad evil guy of the campaign - a bard.

I have always believed the bard class is horribly ill-used. Its flexibility, its focus on knowledge over power (martial or magical), and its focus on manipulation over force, all of it add up to an extremely dangerous class when used properly, especially as a villain (who, by virtue of being played by the DM, has access to a greater pool of setting knowledge than a player character would). I want to test that by pitting my group against such a character.

I call him the Joker Bard because I've always considered him a counter to the Batman Wizard. And because of Dark Knight, which encapsulates my idea of the bard nicely: "With just a little gasoline and a few explosives, I've brought Gotham to its knees! And you know the thing about gasoline and explosives? They're cheap." Why use planet shattering spells and undying hordes against the heroes when you can twist their world around them like a noose with just a few words? And words are cheap.

So that's what I'm setting out to do - make a bard the most dangerous opponent in the entire game. What I'm asking you guys is if you have any advice how I could play the role to its fullest. I believe I have the creativity and ingenuity to turn the Joker Bard into a pretty good archvillian, but I want to make him into a darn good archvillain, possibly even living up to his madcap inspiration.

Things I've already been considering:

1) Don't confront the party directly - the bard likely won't win in a fight with the heroes, not without being stupidly over-leveled or using tactics that will disgruntle players, and constant retreats and losses will diminish his threat. The bard will lose more often than not, but if his losses don't cost him anything and he gets something in the process, he's still a threat.

2) Don't use anything personal. My party has casters, but none of them use their abilities as intelligently as, say, a Batman Wizard. Still, they're quite clever so avoid using things that could be magically tracked back to him or that would cost him anything if they were lost.

3) Use magic, charisma, and guile to twist people into your service - including molding some to act as stand-ins for you. Make it so they never know if they've found the real one or not. Magic, charisma, and guile are free, so any resources gained this way are by nature expendable. Expend them as necessary, but not when you don't have something to gain.

4) Use mundane disguises - magical ones are easier and more effective, but magic can see through magic. True sight does not see through a wig and a fake nose.

5) Don't be part of every story arc, that causes villain fatigue. But when an arc involves you, make it serve your greater purpose whether the heroes win or not. Do not show up just to wave at the audience. When the party starts to clue into your involvement in an arc, let that realization be the instant they understand that this mission is going to be a nasty one.

6) (If the players can be trusted to separate meta knowledge from character knowledge) Just because you can't confront the party directly doesn't mean you can't talk to them. If the players can't sense motive for jack, feel free to rub their noses in it and use bardic performance and magic to cover for you if they manage to roll a 20.

7) If forced into a conflict, you are not a combatant. You are a force multiplier. Use your bardic performances to make your allies stronger, use your magic to disorientate the heroes and keep yourself out of the crosshairs.

What am I missing?

Calemyr
2014-08-27, 10:25 AM
Hate to bump this, but I would appreciate any opinion.

Gorfnod
2014-08-27, 11:33 AM
Just going to leave this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker) here.

Calemyr
2014-08-27, 12:16 PM
Just going to leave this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker) here.

I thought I remembered having had a discussion here about it (I had my original concept long before finding that conversation, though comparing it to the Joker was totally Schneekey's brilliance), but I didn't remember the details and figured the thread was too old to look up. Pity it's using using 3.5 rules rather than Pathfinder ones - changelings are completely different and the feats don't match up.

Also, I'm not exactly countering a Batman in my campaign, so it's not about fighting cheese with cheese. I just want to create an archvillian that isn't powerful in a classic D&D sense - no ninth level spells, no AC you can only calculate by dividing by zero, none of that crap. Just a guy who really wrecks the party's day by attacking them in out of the box ways. A guy the players love to hate, while making the story more fun instead of less. A guy they long to kill but still are forced to respect that he's being clever rather than cheating. The kind of guy that will have players saying to themselves, simultaneously, "this is going to be really painful" and "this is going to be really cool" when they realize he's part of an arc.

So, yeah, what I'm looking for is less "how can I beat the unbeatable in 3.5?" and more "what clever stunts could a bard pull in Pathfinder?". I was hoping maybe some outside perspective might illuminate exploitable angles that I am not seeing.

Barstro
2014-08-27, 01:28 PM
3) Use magic, charisma, and guile to twist people into your service - including molding some to act as stand-ins for you. Make it so they never know if they've found the real one or not. Magic, charisma, and guile are free, so any resources gained this way are by nature expendable. Expend them as necessary, but not when you don't have something to gain.

Slightly off topic, but it's good for the game and seems to work in real life too;
BBEG only needs to twist (or even just coerce the weak-willed) one or two people.

If the end game is to destroy all the buildings by the docks, convince charismatic people that all the crime in that area needs to be stopped. Their zeal in raising awareness and "thinking of the children" will eventually get martial law down there to strong-arm everyone. After enough harassment, the locals will rebel in a riot.
Want the guards disbanded? Start an inquisition and slyly make sure it gets all the funding needed. Get the guards to accuse all the popular prominent leaders' parents.

As long as people firmly believe what they do and say; Discern Lies, Detect Magic, etc. will not show that they are under any sort of compulsion and not link back to you. You can easily make people innocently bring about the results you want. Best if you can control the top of both sides of a conflict.
For added fun; be the head of the pyramid, and also place yourself in lower management (nobody must know that you are actually the head). Manipulate things so that you do get caught early on, and rat out the people above you. If your name somehow comes up again, you will be remembered as a small fish. If Mircosoft is caught manipulating the market; Bill Gates gets in a lot of trouble, and nobody will believe him when he notifies the world that Jake Spencer, Microsoft IT from Golden Colorado, is really the brains behind both Microsoft and Apple (as if Jake would ever let Bill know his real identity).

ShneekeyTheLost
2014-08-27, 08:27 PM
Well, someone's already linked the thread, so my contribution has already largely been made, but a few things about the build that some people had difficulties understanding:

1) The Joker Bard doesn't win by being better. He is annoying because you can't find the little bugger. He stays in the shadows, playing Xanatos Roulette and being a Puppetmaster.

2) His ultimate goal is not to win. He fully realizes that he's ultimately going to be beaten. His goal is to make the party dance to his tune. He realizes that the party is going to end up being some of the most famous people in history, and it will make him famous too. You can't have a hero without a villain. You can't talk about a superhero without mentioning his rogue's gallery. He doesn't necessarily want to beat the party, although he will do his level best to humiliate and harass them, he wants to challenge them. He wants the immortality that only history can bring.

3) If he meets the party face to face, he does so by being disguised as a flunky or pawn or victim. After all, this is the guy who, with ten minutes and a Bluff check, can turn Harvey Dent into Two Face. The 'joker' they are encountering is just a series of cat's paws who have been convinced that they are, in fact, the real Joker. Most often, he will communicate remotely, through messages, sendings, and by actions. Of course, these invitations are traps. But let's be honest, the players should already know that. The trick is finding a bait tasty enough to go for it anyway.

4) Never underestimate the power of a good rumor, particularly in a civilization largely illiterate. Most especially when your bluff checks can go astronomic.