Dual wielding rogue help 3.5

[Warrnan]

Basically I started out to be dual wielding Zorro from a RP stand point. So I have a rogue3/swashbuckler1. The character concept is max sneak attack and base attack while maintaining enough skills to be the skill monkey for the party. So far I've been missing a lot of attacks.

I have a 20 dex with weapon finesse. Bab of 3 and two weapon fighting for -2/-2 then a +1 keen rapier and a +1 shorts word off hand. Other feats are craven, able learner and quick draw. Am I doing something wrong? What weapons should I use for other damage types?

Any pointers?

Other issues: It is a two player game and I need to UMD for us to have any magic at all. My max ranks give me +8 so I have a 45% success rate on my wands. Should I just take a level in wizard or cleric next level and go unseen seer/divine equivalent (not sure if that exists?)?

Other adventurer is a pouncing power attacking barbarian/fighter that does crap tons of damage.

So would you:
A) keep maxing UMD and stick with the daring outlaw build?
B) work toward unseen seer and daggerspell Mage for a melee gish?
C)ditch melee and pew pew lasers focusing on sneak attacking as a wiz/rog hybrid?

[NecessaryWeevil]

Would you still have fun with B) or C)?

[dextercorvia]

I would recommend getting Penetrating Strike with your 3rd Rogue level. It is an ACF in Dungeonscape and Escape from Castle Ravensloft (they are slightly different). I wouldn't spend a class level on just UMD related things, but you could do a Cloistered Cleric dip for the Knowledge, Travel, and Magic domains. Swap Knowledge and Travel for the devotion feats. Take the Spontaneous Domain ACF in PHII so that you can prepare a Cure Light Wounds in your domain slot which will be much more useful that Magic Aura for you (most of the time). Travel devotion will let you move and full attack. Knowledge devotion will help offset your penalties for TWF and provide a small damage bump. The magic domain means you can use all wands/scrolls like a 1st level Wizard/Cleric. That will ease up your UMD concerns quite a bit.

Since you will have fewer feats, consider picking up Gloves of the Balanced Hand, which will get you Improved TWF sooner than you could otherwise. After your cleric dip, keep going with Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw.

[Red Fel]

Basically I started out to be dual wielding Zorro from a RP stand point. So I have a rogue3/swashbuckler1. The character concept is max sneak attack and base attack while maintaining enough skills to be the skill monkey for the party. So far I've been missing a lot of attacks.

Welcome to TWF 101: Two-weapon fighting means giving up BAB (and higher level of damage, on average) in exchange for the possibility of performing more hits in a round. The problem arises in that, while you may be performing more attacks, they're less likely to land, and they tend to use weaker weapons.


I have a 20 dex with weapon finesse. Bab of 3 and two weapon fighting for -2/-2 then a +1 keen rapier and a +1 shorts word off hand. Other feats are craven, able learner and quick draw. Am I doing something wrong? What weapons should I use for other damage types?

Any pointers?

Read the TWF Offhandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook). Everything you want to know, as well as several things you need to know but didn't realize, will be in there - races, feats, annoying math, and of course, weapons. Look through it, find what you like, and run with it.


Other issues: It is a two player game and I need to UMD for us to have any magic at all. My max ranks give me +8 so I have a 45% success rate on my wands. Should I just take a level in wizard or cleric next level and go unseen seer/divine equivalent (not sure if that exists?)?

Other adventurer is a pouncing power attacking barbarian/fighter that does crap tons of damage.

So would you:
A) keep maxing UMD and stick with the daring outlaw build?
B) work toward unseen seer and daggerspell Mage for a melee gish?
C)ditch melee and pew pew lasers focusing on sneak attacking as a wiz/rog hybrid?

Honestly, I have two positions on this: One as an optimizer, and one as a player.

Optimizer: Do what gets the job done best. Wands are awesome. You already have a melee beefcake, he's Doing It Right, and he'll probably deal megatons more damage than you. So rather than produce redundant effort, why not do what he can't? Get some caster levels and cover every possible base. Use wands, use spells, as you like. Maybe switch to Beguiler, that's a fun class with some Rogue-ish theme to it.

Player: You wanted to play a swashbuckling hero, right? Why shouldn't you play what you want? Yes, your party will suffer a bit from the lack of versatility, but you'll have fun. And since it's only a two-person game, the DM can more carefully ensure that challenges will be appropriate - challenging, but not overwhelming. In fact, if you stay with your original concept, it'll be easier for the DM to balance encounters; casters tend to complicate things, after all.

[tyckspoon]

For a two-person party, either you need to build for flexibility or your DM has to significantly modify what you deal with to account for your reduced group capacities (especially as your partner is basically only good for smashing things.. although if you aren't too worried about subtlety there's an amazing number of problems you can solve by smashing the right thing.) So yeah, I'd look into going a more magical route. There's no better shortcut to both flexibility and power in D&D.

If you want to stick with the Daring Outlaw route, then a single-level dip into Cleric with the Magic domain will make your UMD life a lot easier - you're a Cleric and you count as a Wizard for purposes of spell-trigger items. You might still want to keep up your UMD for the purposes of scroll use, which can cause significantly difficult UMD checks to activate at higher levels, but you'll be covered for wands/rods/staffs. You'd also have one more domain choice, which could potentially be swapped for a Devotion feat; Trickery Devotion is useful and sounds like it might be appropriate for your character, and Travel is an old optimization standby. I don't know if there any existing deities (or if they do exist, if they'd be appropriate for your character) with those particular combinations of domains, tho. You might have to argue for cleric of a cause/philosophy/ideal.

If you're missing attacks.. hmm. Well, getting more magical would help a bit there too, because you'd have access to more buffs/debuffs, but let's take a look at what you're working with. You're BAB +3, +5 ability mod, +1 weapons. +9 to hit, stepped down to +7/+7 for TWFing. ACs for CR 3-4 enemies appear to cluster around 17-20; since you're a melee sneak-attacker, you should either be hitting with a flanking bonus or denying enemies their Dex (preferably both!) If you're not getting one of those, you aren't getting Sneak Attack either, and you have no business being in melee with that enemy. Not the best hit rate, but you should be hitting about 50%, which isn't excessively horrible. What kind of attack bonus is your beatsticky friend putting out?

[Warrnan]

Travel devotion sounds great to keep up with my pouncing barbarian! I wish my rogue had more than a 10 in wisdom! I do have a 15 Int though.

B and c would be fun just a different concept. B seems to fit because because I wouldn't have to beg to retrain all melee related feats but I've toyed with level 20 melee rogue gish builds and it seems like a hassle for not so much return on the effort.

[Warrnan]

I do always flank so that helps. The melee meat machine has an 18 str, 4bab, +2 from rage, -2 from whirling frenzy, +1 weapon and 2 flanking. I'm shy his bonus by 3 points due to rogue1 bab loss and no rage. He's sitting at +11/+11 I'm +7/+7. The price I pay for stealth and skill utility. I suppose it's fair.

That average AC number was very helpful. Thanks! Makes me want to single attack for +11 to hit while flanking or charging (which should be always).

[sleepyphoenixx]

To improve your hit chance you can make your opponent flat footed (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12405) or use a net (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#net). Since you already have Quick Draw you can also use Iaiutsu Focus (OA) to add 1-3d6 damage without further effort or resources spend.

[Darrin]

I have a 20 dex with weapon finesse. Bab of 3 and two weapon fighting for -2/-2 then a +1 keen rapier and a +1 shorts word off hand. Other feats are craven, able learner and quick draw.
Am I doing something wrong?


Looks fine so far. I think I would have grabbed Travel Devotion before Quickdraw (Least Crystal of Return is only 300 GP).



What weapons should I use for other damage types?


Scimitar/Cutlass or Scimitar/Kurki covers slashing. Not sure about bludgeoning... I usually throw a morningstar in my pack as a backup weapon, but warhammer has a better crit multiplier. Light mace is probably the best light offhand bludgeoning weapon.



Any pointers?


TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079).

You need a reliable method to move + full attack. Travel Devotion is the easiest to grab with a feat, but that's only 10 rounds 1/day. You can take it more than once, and I like to eventually have it at least 3/day on my Daring Outlaws. A Cloistered Cleric dip might be better, as you can grab Turn Undead along with Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion. If Io (Races of the Dragon) is your deity (she already has Travel and Knowledge), you can also pick up the Magic Domain to activate spell-trigger/spell-completion items as a 1st level wizard, which alleviates the need for UMD somewhat.

Get wand chambers in your weapons ASAP. Put blades of fire (Spell Compendium) in one, and instant of power (Forge of War) in the other. Other good spells to have: blade of blood (PHBII), critical strike (Spell Compendium), swift haste (Spell Compendium), swift invisibility (Spell Compendium).



Other issues: It is a two player game and I need to UMD for us to have any magic at all. My max ranks give me +8 so I have a 45% success rate on my wands. Should I just take a level in wizard or cleric next level and go unseen seer/divine equivalent (not sure if that exists?)?


I'd aim for Dragon Devotee 4 (Races of the Dragon). This gets you +2d6 sneak attack and one level of sorcerer casting. From there, I'd probably go Unseen Seer 4, then maybe head back into Swashbuckler for more Daring Outlaw.



Other adventurer is a pouncing power attacking barbarian/fighter that does crap tons of damage.


Good. He is the meat-cleaver, you are the scalpel. He is the house-painter, you are the artiste.



So would you:
A) keep maxing UMD and stick with the daring outlaw build?


"Yes. The pointy end goes into the other man."



B) work toward unseen seer and daggerspell Mage for a melee gish?


I'd stay away from Daggerspell Mage. A little too squishy for TWFing.



C)ditch melee and pew pew lasers focusing on sneak attacking as a wiz/rog hybrid?

With only one other meatbag to draw aggro, I don't think the party is large enough to do the "pew pew" thing from a safe distance. However, a few hirelings, summons, or cohorts could help with that. Mailman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031158&postcount=28) + Spellwarp Sniper might be serviceable, but the TWF/Swashbuckler stuff would weaken it.

[Iain]

Other feats are craven

... stick with the daring outlaw build?

TWF optimisation aside, I can't help but wonder a little about the psychology of a craven ... daring ... outlaw? :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

[Warrnan]

Thanks sleepy Phoenix. Grease and marbles are getting purchased pronto. A net gives -4 dex penalty. I'm not sure how this would trigger sneak attack.

[Warrnan]

It's hilarious how mechanically it's optimal to grab craven and daring outlaw. I just say, "he's mentally suggestible from magic mind spells" but sneaks up on bad guys solo for sneak attacks so he's daring. Courageous in certain instances and a coward concerning magic. lol.

As far as weapons go, I have a +1 sap(subduel), +1 dagger (hidden), +1 keen rapier (piercing), +1 light mace (bludgeon), and +1 shortsword (slash).
Covered most things I guess. Lol.

Also considering wands of acid splash for ranged sneak attacks and shocking grasp for melee touch sneak attacks but it seems unthematic.

Wand chambered weapons with swift invis = ninja vanish sneak attack city and bonus defense! Genuis!!!!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Thanks sleepy Phoenix. Grease and marbles are getting purchased pronto. A net gives -4 dex penalty. I'm not sure how this would trigger sneak attack.

-4 dex means -2 to AC. It doesn't trigger sneak attack but lets you hit more often. As a bonus it also hinders your enemy and since it only needs a ranged touch attack you don't need to spend a feat on EWP.

[Warrnan]

I think I can swap a point of strength 13-12 and throw that into wis to get an 11. This will help me grab that cleric level. So awesome. Cleric1/rogue3/ swashbuckler16.

Does the magic domain give you access to all wizard wands just like level 1 wizard? Or is it capped by your "effective wiz level" based off actual cleric level? Could a level one cleric use a level 2 wizard spell wand?

@sleepy Phoenix. Ah. I see. Good tactic! Ranged touch should be easy to hit. Thanks

[Red Fel]

Does the magic domain give you access to all wizard wands just like level 1 wizard? Or is it capped by your "effective wiz level" based off actual cleric level? Could a level one cleric use a level 2 wizard spell wand?

Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain):
Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.
In other words, if you have one Cleric level, you're treated as having one Wizard level. More Cleric levels, and you have 1/2 those in Wizard levels; these pseudo-Wizard levels stack with actual Wizard levels.

A wand is a spell-trigger item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger):
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
In other words, spell-trigger items don't check for a CL; they just check if you have the right spell list. Because you are a Cleric of at least level 1, all Cleric spells are on your class spell list, and you can use a wand with a Cleric spell. Because you are also treated as a Wizard of at least level 1, you are treated as though Wizard spells are on your class list.

[Darrin]

Thanks sleepy Phoenix. Grease and marbles are getting purchased pronto. A net gives -4 dex penalty. I'm not sure how this would trigger sneak attack.

Any surface that's slippery enough to cause a Balance check means that unless the creature has 5 ranks in Balance, it's considered flat-footed until it moves out of that square. This isn't part of the description for grease or marbles (although it probably should be) but under in the Balance skill in the PHB:

"Being Attacked while Balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can't move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing."

There may be a bit of a rules discrepancy if your DM is an absolute sticker for RAW. Some folks only consider a creature to be balancing only after it has made a Balance check. Casting grease or using marbles doesn't force a Balance check until a creature attempts to enter or move through that square. Grease actually uses a Ref save, which isn't the same as a Balance check, although the spell description does mention making a Balance check to move through the spell area. Actually, there's a half-dozen different spells that create slippery terrain, and pretty much all of them use a different mechanic to check and see if a creature slips and falls down.

For the sake of convenience, most groups use that paragraph quoted above to say something like, "If you're attacked while on a slippery/unstable surface that would require a Balance check or Ref save to move through, you're considered flat-footed unless you have 5 ranks in Balance." If your DM is absolutely insistent that a creature can only be flat-footed after making a Balance check, then all you have to do is hit the creature once. This forces a Balance check, and he'll be flat-footed for the rest of your attacks.

Grease is actually one of the weaker "slippery" spells as far as surface area goes. Ice slick (Frostburn, Cleric 1) is four times the area (20' square) and pairs up nicely with snowshoes (Spell Compendium) or ice skate (Frostburn). Impeding stones (Cityscape, Druid 1/Ranger 1) is even better: 40' radius, same as entangle. Tell your meatbag buddy to put 5 ranks in Balance ASAP, or buy a wand of snowshoes.

You can also use Quickdraw + TWF to throw an dust eggshell grenade (10 GP, Oriental Adventures) as part of your attack routine (the TWF don't specify melee attacks, so you can mix in thrown weapons if you like). Ranged touch attack, 5' range increment, and if you hit, the target is blinded *no save*. If a creature can't see you, then you're considered to be attacking as an invisible creature, and your target loses his Dex bonus to AC. However, use these dust eggshell grenades sparingly, or the DM may bring down the banhammer.

[Warrnan]

Wow. All good info Darrin. This has given me much to think about. I'm getting a blacksmith to wand chamber all my weapons ASAP. So cheap!!!

Luckily we just barely survived a mummy encounter and have 9k in loot. Time to go shopping. Lol

I will be sure to let "Irrik the Bold" know to get some ranks in balance. I want to see him fall once first though. Hahahah