(SPOILER) I know why Sabine is Haley's opposite.

[Silverlocke980]

...She's an Aasimar.

Every character in OotS is a counterstereotype of some form. Roy is a big, smart fighter. Durkon is a dwarf, but rather than being a drunken comic relief, he's the serious, noble member of the party (and holds his liquor well- remember the New Year?). Belkar is a hobbit, but rather than being sweet and enjoying food above all, he likes to kill people and is psychotic. V is a reverse of the stereotype of the "hot elven chick"- no one even knows what V's gender is.

Elan stumped me for a bit, but then I figured it out. He's a Harper joke. Rather than being an all-knowing, mysterious bard, he's dumb and childlike- and it's actually made me appreciate his character a lot more since coming to that conclusion.

So why wouldn't Haley- the one party member who, so far, has no counterstereotypical tendencies- not be a counterstereotype too? She's a thief- and an Aasimar, child of a heavenly celestial. Wouldn't that be a great plot twist?

It also finally explains why Sabine is Haley's opposite. Sabine is an actual infernal demon from hell. Haley is half of a celestial from the heavens.

Kind of interesting, isn't it? Like to hear what everyone thinks.

[Assassinfox]

Hasn't this been proposed before?

[Darkxarth]

Hmm, definitely one of the better theories about Haley I've seen. I think this one has actual credit. Also, I like the comparison of Elan to the Harpers, I hadn't thought about it until now either.

[averagejoe]

Mmmmm, there's nothing actually disproving it, anyways, as far as I know. Even so, it assumes a symmetry to the characters that may not exist. One can't really say whether Rich went through the characters and said, "Okay, how can I use each one of these to counter a stereotype?" Your statements about V, Durkon, and Elan are shakey at best, and I honestly think you might be trying to find something that isn't there. There really is no reason to assume that the characters were designed with that sort of symmetry in mind.

Or, if one assumes your statement about counterstereotypes is true, it could be argued that Haley is one because she is a noble rogue who doesn't actually steal (although she does con a bit), and who is doing so for altruistic reasons.

[Jacob_Gallagher]

Until I got to the last few lines, I thought you meant Sabine is an Aasimar in disguise. A little ambiguous there. But yeah, I'd agree with your idea, if not for the fact that I doubt the Giant conciously makes sure every character breaks a stereotype.

[brian c]

Hasn't this been proposed before?

Only a couple dozen times. One thing about this is that evil opposites doesn't mean in race; half-orc isn't exactly an evil opposite of human (Roy and Thog) nor is dwarf the evil opposite of dwarf (Hilgya and Durkon) or gnome to dwarf (Leeky and Durkon). The only times this worked were for V and Zz'd
tri (or whatever his name is) and kinda for Belkar and Yok-Yok/Yik-Yik (though kobolds are really more like dwarves in that they do mining and stuff).

[MReav]

Yok-Yok/Yik-Yik (though kobolds are really more like dwarves in that they do mining and stuff).

Kobolds are more the counterpart to gnomes (given their intense racial hatred in the core settings).

[Charity322]

Or, if one assumes your statement about counterstereotypes is true, it could be argued that Haley is one because she is a noble rogue who doesn't actually steal (although she does con a bit), and who is doing so for altruistic reasons.

Where did you get the idea that she doesn't steal? She used to belong to the THIEVES GUILD lol. She stole Belkar's potion (and wallet in OtOoPCs). She scammed the party out of half their treasure by pretending those grey rocks were worth a lot. She stole out of that room in the Dungeon of Dorukan and then lied and told Roy it was empty.

She was a Rogue long before her father got in trouble, she had been in the Thieves Guild for years. I'm not saying she's a bad person and she is certainly trying to help her father, but she is a thief lol.

[MReav]

Yeah, if Haley would have been the opposite concept of the Rogue, she would have been a law official, doing undercover work. Not all the characters are opposites of their stereotypes.

Durkon is a picture perfect Dwarven Cleric. He drinks beer, is a devout worshiper of his god, he favors hammers (either hammers or axes are the stereotypical dwarven weapons), and stuff.

Elan is a useless pretty boy (or at least started out like that). That screams bard.

[Mathias_Tanavar]

Haley is a counter stereotype because she isn't greedy... she steals to free her father

[Assassinfox]

Haley is a counter stereotype because she isn't greedy... she steals to free her father

The way she acts around gold suggests that there's a lot more to it than just freeing her father.

[MReav]

The way she acts around gold suggests that there's a lot more to it than just freeing her father.

Yeah, I think she has some kind of gold fetish.

[Jefepato]

Haley is a counter stereotype because she isn't greedy... she steals to free her father

As near as I can tell, she's greedy and she steals to free her father.

[Daracaex]

Anybody who has read On the Origins of the PCs can tell you that Haley is greedy by nature. She's just raising money for her father to free him. After that, she's probably going to go right back to stealing for profit.

EDIT: Also, if Haley's an Aasimar, then why doesn't she have gold eyes?

[ChimericPhase]

Because gold eyes isn't standard? It's "some have minor physical traits..." with an emphasis on some. MM pg 209

Edit: Maybe Haley chose the unnaturally attractive stick figure trait? She would get a +2 to Cha

[AznEclipse]

There's also the thing she tells Elan on their date (when she's still unintelligible)
"I'm not exactly what you'd call a..."

or something to that effect.

[Elliot Kane]

Belkar is a hobbit, but rather than being sweet and enjoying food above all, he likes to kill people and is psychotic

Actually, I don't think I've ever seen anyone play a halfling who was not a psychotic evil little ratbag.

Good aligned PC halflings are about as rare as Drow who are not good aligned Driz'zt clones, in my experience at least.

[BardicLasher]

Haley is a counter stereotype because she isn't greedy... she steals to free her father


Read 8-bit theatre. We find out why Thief steals. He solves the problem. He keeps stealing because he likes it.

Haley seems the same way.And remember, she was a thief BEFORE she learned about her father.

[Jazzvader]

This has a very good point but I don't think that :haley:'s old man or any of her family no matter how far back are Celestials so she is not an aasimar in my eyes.

[ShiningTed]

Or, if one assumes your statement about counterstereotypes is true, it could be argued that Haley is one because she is a noble rogue who doesn't actually steal (although she does con a bit), and who is doing so for altruistic reasons.

Haley is a counter stereotype because she isn't greedy... she steals to free her fatherIf 'greedy thief' is the most obvious stereotype, 'rogue with acts roguish but really has a heart of gold' is the second most obvious.

[Shadow of the Sun]

But what of her mother?

[Rockphed]

Wasn't her father a first ed thief?

[brian c]

Wasn't her father a first ed thief?

Yeah, that's what she said. Haley definitely likes gold and likes having it; I know she needs gold to save her father but I have to think that she'll be sad to see it go.



Kobolds are more the counterpart to gnomes (given their intense racial hatred in the core settings).

D'oh! I totally knew that. But anyway this is exactly my point: evil opposite does not mean opposite in race in any way.

[Yakk]

Sheesh -- she's clearly a half-dragon.

[BisectedBrioche]

No she's half ninja. Or to be more exact half ninja-looter (guess which half, go on).

[Lady_Orc]

I like this theory, and think it's quite possible. Back when Haley had her speech problem, she was thinking about telling Elan that she 'wasn't quite' something. I remember it was speculated that she 'wasn't quite human', and I can easily believe that she could have some sort of non human heritage, whether Aasimar or other.

Has anything ever been mentioned about Haley's mother? At least I can't remember anything.

[Assassinfox]

She's an axiomatic half-celestial half-dragon wereray!

[Noneoyabizzness]

No she's half ninja. Or to be more exact half ninja-looter (guess which half, go on).

bah, if anything she is part pirate

[Baalzebub]

Oh yeah and :Durkon: is a saint dedicated to Thor because Thor listens to him (he has speaken with Thor by phone!!) or :Vaarsuvius: has a strange template that negates gender!!!

Please... :Haley: is not an Aasimar, don't rush to conclusions. It's a good theory that one, but those are only stereotypes, in DnD you can find anything from any alignment, from good Mindflayers to evil Couatls.

My point? :Haley: is human, admit it.

[BisectedBrioche]

bah, if anything she is part pirate

No;

Ninjas = stealthy people who can be hired as mercenaries.

Pirates = robbers who work by sea

Which one sounds more like a rogue to you?

[Lady_Orc]

My point? :Haley: is human, admit it.

She very well may be 100% human, but we don't know for certain.

[Bluelantern]

No;

Ninjas = stealthy people who can be hired as mercenaries.

Pirates = robbers who work by sea

Which one sounds more like a rogue to you?
Harley herself said she was more like a pirate

[Elliot Kane]

As for Haley being Sabine's opposite - the easiest reason is that Sabine is an utter trollop and Haley isn't. Elan is in fact the only guy I ever recall her being interested in, where Sabine will sleep with anything that moves, and anything that doesn't in case it might.

[Ampersand]

She very well may be 100% human, but we don't know for certain.

It's pretty clearly stated in the new introduction strips in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Haley has the extra skill points humans get. And she doesn't seem to be noticably lagging behind the rest of the OotS in power, which a level adjustment would cause.

[Lady_Orc]

It's pretty clearly stated in the new introduction strips in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Haley has the extra skill points humans get. And she doesn't seem to be noticably lagging behind the rest of the OotS in power, which a level adjustment would cause.

Well, I haven't read the new intro so I wouldn't know what it states. As for level adjustment, I guess it would depend on what exact race she was. I know Aasimar get one, but suppose she is 'quarter' something or other? I don't think you get a level adjustment then, and for game technical purposes you would count as human, but 'storywise' you could still be not entirely human.

Not that I'm saying Haley *is* other than human - just that the theory is interesting, and I think it hasn't been disproven yet.

[Cifer]

Ninjas = stealthy people who can be hired as mercenaries.

Pirates = robbers who work by sea

Which one sounds more like a rogue to you?Pirate. Definitely Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html)

Otherwise, well, as has been said the theory that Haley is a Aasimar, celestial or other upper-plane stuff is not exactly new - and neither is it in any way proven. Sabine is already evil opposite from Haley in that they despise each other and that Sabine indeed spends more time horizontally and the tavern scene could refer to anything.

[KoDT69]

I'd just like to say that Yik-Yik is Belkar's opposite for one simple fact. Belkar is awesome, and Yik-Yik is awesomely lame! :smallsigh:

[Sesquedoodle]

I know Aasimar get one, but suppose she is 'quarter' something or other?

Eh? I though Aasimar were 'quarter-celestials'. They have different stats from half-celestials, anyway.

[Spiryt]

...She's an Aasimar.

So why wouldn't Haley- the one party member who, so far, has no counterstereotypical tendencies- not be a counterstereotype too? She's a thief- and an Aasimar, child of a heavenly celestial. Wouldn't that be a great plot twist?
nks.

Waaaaait... Yes, she's aasimar but she didn't like usually good, favored class: paladin and all those "shiny" things.
So before becoming thief she was revolted, dark teenage a.k.a mistress Shadowgale.
Quite possible :smallwink:

[Cifer]

Eh? I though Aasimar were 'quarter-celestials'. They have different stats from half-celestials, anyway.
Quarter is already quite strong-blooded. There are tieflings who had their fiendish ancestor five and more generations in the past.

[brian c]

No;

Ninjas = stealthy people who can be hired as mercenaries.

Pirates = robbers who work by sea

Which one sounds more like a rogue to you?

I think it was a joke... pirates vs. ninjas anyone?

[Silverlocke980]

I checked the forums, but in the time I've been here, I've heard nothing suggesting this, so I just thought I'd throw it out there.

It's a theory I like to put out, anyway, becuase I really enjoy the plot-twisty ideas. I love the good races, because there's so much more potential in an innately good character who has fallen slightly off the path than in "good bad guy" characters (as someone else stated, Good aligned Drow are way too common these days, though I don't blame Drizz't. I blame poor imaginations.)

As for the eyes, I'd forgotten that bit. Who knows? Haley might just not display those traits.

I'll admit I'm a little shaky on V's counterstereotype- Elan I'm rather sure of. Just thinking of Elan as a Harper joke makes me crack up (and his new class change would fit there, too, wouldn't it? Harpers are supposed to be "supermen" in the Realms, and now Elan has a prestige class- the first OotS member to have one, I think.) Still, I don't think Durkon is a stereotype at all. Most dwarves- I'd say every dwarf I ever saw in a fantasy setting- was generally either very dour, and grim, or the comic relief. I'm not talking about equipment, which Durkon is very stereotypical in his choices- heavy armor, hammer, and shield- but personality.

Durkon's my favorite character, really, except Roy. Go straight men in a gag comic!

And thanks to everyone for replying!

[bluish_wolf]

The problem with this theory is that it gives Nale too much credit. I don't think he knows that much. He knows a lot about Elan, not much beyond that.

[The Extinguisher]

Bah, Sabine and Haley are opposites because Haley is actually a full Celestial disguised as a human.

It makes perfect sense!

[Bluelantern]

She could be a half-celestial without wings (the chances are 25% or something) that way she still could have any human traits, but the ECL still is too large too fit. But, except that, it would make sense.

Another theory
her mother was a noble woman, maybe a princess, making Harley Royality
Her father being a adventurer that seduced a princess makes a great story. =)

Still is weird that Sabine is a Demonic being, the races may not need to be a exact opposite, but all others fit the bill.

[Green Bean]

Until recently, Sabinme and Haley were opposites in terms of openness of relationships. Nale and Sabine are totally unselfconsciously a couple, whereas Haley and Elan took 400 strips+ to finally get together. I think the Giant said something like this once. I'll see if I can track it down.

[Ava]

Haley reminds me of myself when I played a Rogue in WoW. I always got excited over the loot in dungeons. :)

[BisectedBrioche]

Harley herself said she was more like a pirate

I can say I'm like a robot, it doesn't make it true.

[Bluelantern]

Still, it is weird that sabine is a half-demon (or something)

I can say I'm like a robot, it doesn't make it true.
Still, pirates are chaotic, greedy, enjoin the pleasures of life, sounds like harley.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah, I think she has some kind of goldfish.Fixed.

Yes, of course Haley's going to have a goldfish. Much more valuable than a silverfish, for sure.

And they're prettier.

Oh, and Sabine isn't half-anything. She's a full-blown succubus.

...

Let the inflatable girlfriend jokes commence.

[Roderick_BR]

For that to be true, Nale would have to know if Haley is celestial or not. So, I strongly doubt it.

[BisectedBrioche]

For that to be true, Nale would have to know if Haley is celestial or not. So, I strongly doubt it.

If the people she's been adventuring with don;t know, how's Nale going to?

[Khayankh]

The line by Haley where she's talking gibberish and goes, "I'm not exactly..." wasn't something I interpreted as having to do with race. I think you're all reading waay too much into this, she's human. But human doesn't mean straight. We *know* that a mental figure called "Haley's Latent Bisexuality" is present in her thoughts. In that speech ending with the "I'm not exactly..." bit, she admits to having kissed a girl. Haley's not a celestial of any kind, I think she was coming out to Elan in that line. After all, not being heterosexual would obviously count as a secret. If Haley is the opposite of a stereotype, it's the stereotype of the girl party member: that one female in a group of men (V doesn't count for purposes of this thesis) who serves as a cute, good-looking flirt and romantic interest. Not only is Haley not forthright or exceptionally feminine, there's quite a lot of evidence that implies she's terrifed of actually entering a relationship ("He'll leave. Just like everyone else. I'm not good enough."), on top of which she's evidently bisexual.

aside: I apologize for not linking to any of the comics I just referenced. I'm not used to the message board linking thingy yet. Please excuse my severe noobiness.

[The Extinguisher]

Yes, but the "I kissed a girl once" and Latent Bisexuality implies that she doesn't consider it a big secret. It's something else.

Besides, everyone has a latent bisexual side. Some just aren't latent.

[dragongirl13]

Stay on topic people.

Haley has no physical characteristics of any Planetouched. Then again, it's hard to see any useful things that may be the typical physical appearance of a Planetouched in a stick figure comic. But think.

Remember, she is already a counterstereotype for having a reason to want all that treasure. She wants to free her dad from an evil dictator. That's why she wants treasure, not just because it's shiny or she wants to be rich.

And Sabine may have been her opposite because they are both in love with one of the identical twins (Haley loves Elan, Sabine loves Nale) except that Haley buried her feelings and Sabine made them known completely. She may also have been Sabine's opposite because Haley dislikes red leather and Sabine wears red leather.

[The Extinguisher]

1. Haley loves gold, money and things worth a lot of the previous two, and would steal even if she didn't have to.
2. The rogue that only steals to save their family is the second biggest stereotype for rogues.

I'm going to say Celestial. Full Celestial, just hiding it. Maybe she was adopted, that's why her father is human.

[Fuum Bango]

When you think about it, the fiendish and the celestial have more in common than the fiendish and the mortals.
I've always thought they were opposites because Sabine is a immortal Outsider that can planeshift at will, while Haley is a normal girl with all the normal trappings that come with that.

[Hopeless]

...She's an Aasimar.

Every character in OotS is a counterstereotype of some form. Roy is a big, smart fighter. Durkon is a dwarf, but rather than being a drunken comic relief, he's the serious, noble member of the party (and holds his liquor well- remember the New Year?). Belkar is a hobbit, but rather than being sweet and enjoying food above all, he likes to kill people and is psychotic. V is a reverse of the stereotype of the "hot elven chick"- no one even knows what V's gender is.

Elan stumped me for a bit, but then I figured it out. He's a Harper joke. Rather than being an all-knowing, mysterious bard, he's dumb and childlike- and it's actually made me appreciate his character a lot more since coming to that conclusion.

So why wouldn't Haley- the one party member who, so far, has no counterstereotypical tendencies- not be a counterstereotype too? She's a thief- and an Aasimar, child of a heavenly celestial. Wouldn't that be a great plot twist?

It also finally explains why Sabine is Haley's opposite. Sabine is an actual infernal demon from hell. Haley is half of a celestial from the heavens.

Kind of interesting, isn't it? Like to hear what everyone thinks.

I kind of thought she is half dragon given her liking for gold.

[Bluelantern]

She is a Half-dragon people wake up!
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html

[Jayabalard]

No;

Ninjas = paid killers who are more concerned with their own honor than profit.

Pirates = Jolly fun loving swashbuckers that have plenty of gold, wine and sensual massages ready for their pirate queen.

Which one sounds more like a rogue to you?
Obviously the pirates do; that's why Haley picked pirate over Ninja.

[Hunter_Rose]

Haley has no physical characteristics of any Planetouched. Then again, it's hard to see any useful things that may be the typical physical appearance of a Planetouched in a stick figure comic.

Actually she has that errant strand of hair that graces her face. I think that Haily is the only person in the comic that has displayed this trait, and she has displayed this trait since adolesence. I know this is a very subtle stretch, but if you look at Haily/Sabine as polar opposites, Sabine is a blatant fiend where as Haily is someone that is subtley different from the rest of the OOTS crew, and morally opposite to Sabine. This could also be a direction the Giant is going in.

[Jazzvader]

Besides, everyone has a latent bisexual side. Some just aren't latent.

This is so true. I tried explaining that to my friend and he said, "So you're a little bit gay." I replied "Everyone is a little." But he couldn't get over that fact.

[Shadow of the Sun]

That Ninja/Pirate thing always annoyed me- it was the Samurai who were honour bound, not the Ninja.

[Demented]

This is so true. I tried explaining that to my friend and he said, "So you're a little bit gay." I replied "Everyone is a little." But he couldn't get over that fact.

Put it another way:
There's a little part of every one of us that doesn't care exactly what we're humping.

Judging by the way "Half-" templates fly around, I suspect that's doubly true in DnD.

[Bluelantern]

There's a little part of every one of us that doesn't care exactly what we're humping.

Dude, you are my idol :smallbiggrin:

seriously, best true ever, I going to put in my sig!

[Silverlocke980]

Back on topic from bizarre-but-bizarrely-related side issues regarding bisexuality, amorality between races, and the war between the well-armed and the well-hidden....

I've heard the theory that Sabine is open with her relationship while Haley is not, but I can't help but think there must be more to it. Maybe it's just because my hunt for counterstereotypes is rather fierce- I like them a lot, so I see if I can find them where I go.

As it stands, though, one person on these message boards really grabbed my attention: Khayank. Khayank's theory of Haley's counterstereotype bloody rocks, and has now gained acceptance as a Awesome Female Theory. I like female characters in games- most male characters are done to death, so women are like a breeze of fresh air.

(And I have a girlfriend so no, I don't salivate over Dead or Alive! Real women are better!)

Glad to see my first thread go to three pages! What an acheivement.

Next, to acheive ten pages, I'll post my theory that the Monster in the Darkness is V's mate, see where that goes. ;)

(How many people are going to post with responses to that and not realize it's a joke? I wonder...)

[Brettoe]

I've heard the theory that Sabine is open with her relationship while Haley is not, but I can't help but think there must be more to it.


Ahh....But know that Haley is now open in her relationship, but Sabine still is (I think:smallconfused:)

[Corolinth]

There are a number of reasons why Sabine is Haley's evil opposite that don't require Haley to be something other than human.

Haley, while the sex-bomb of the Order, is fairly picky in her endeavors. Sabine is a skank that will jump in the sack with whoever happens to catch her fancy at the time. This difference is subtle, and likely to be lost on the younger crowd. Haley is an adult woman. She dates like an adult woman (with severe rejection issues). She may say and/or do things to make your toes curl, but in the end, your mother would be happy to see you bring a girl like Haley home. Your mother might cry herself to sleep at night if you went home with Sabine.


Haley is a basket-case, or was in the beginning. She's getting better. Sabine knows who and what she is, and she's comfortable with that. Sabine is a skank, she's evil, she sacrifices babies to the dark gods, but she's confident about it, and she likes to be who she is. Haley doesn't know who she is, and also wishes she were someone else. The difference here is self-esteem. Sabine has it, Haley doesn't. Now, Haley is getting better about that, and nobody (least of all Giant) has ever said that the reasons behind being evil opposites had to be set in stone and unchanging. It's character development.

Sabine is dark-skinned, while Haley is fair-skinned. Black hair vs. red hair. Their overall appearance is similar, with different color schemes (sort of like Thog and Roy, or Elan and Nale).

Now for the semi-racial aspects of their opposition:

As a running gag, we don't know what type of fiend Sabine is (even though it's fairly obvious looking at the possibilities in the Monster Manual, despite debate to the contrary). Haley, on the other hand, is human according to the comics (she's mentioned bonus skill points for being human), but Giant has managed to sow enough confusion about it that nearly everyone has their own wild theory.

Haley gets the human bonus feat and skill points. That's clearly documented in On the Origin of PCs. Haley can not be an aasimar, and she can not be a tiefling. Those are separate races, not templates. She might have a half-* template, but that's exceedingly unlikely as those have much too great a level adjustment. Since she's never used any of the special abilities from those templates, she'd be functioning as a PC of approximately 2/3 the level of the rest of the Order. With a half-* template, a Haley balanced around the level of the rest of the Order, but not using any of her inborn abilities, would have pitiful BAB and skill modifiers by comparison. Haley has shown herself far more competent than that. If she has any template at all, it's a homebrew Giant special.

[Imgran]

Elan: Happy go lucky class-specialist bard with incredible luck
Nale: Scheming, cynical multiclasser with no luck at all

Roy: Highly intelligent fighter and graduate of the college student (remember, the abortive mindflayer digression, the mindflayer actually saw Roy's brain as the most appetizing, which was evidently the whole point of the digression)
Thog: Me swing big ax.

Vaarsuvious: Almost paralyzingly verbiose, but powerful and experienced
Zz'driti: Never wasted a single word
Kid: Needed to hit the books a bit longer before heading out into the real world.

Dorkan: Disciplined, patient, reverential team player, follows Thor protector of civilization, afraid of trees
Hilgya: Insists on doing what she wants all the time for any reason, follows Loki god of Mischief
Druid: He's a druid. He doesn't just love trees, he lives for trees.

Belkar and Yikyik: Actually these two were pretty much the same. The difference was that Belkar actually had more sense than to bite off more than he can chew against a fellow party member while Yikyik was completely unrestrained.

Belkar and Yokyok could have been interesting because Yokyok was trying to be a highly disciplined kobold fencer, as opposed to savage, undisciplined Belkar, but he was allowed to die and take the Inigo Montoya speil with him, which was probably all to the good because it was pretty much a throwaway gag (I'd love just once to see a deep, meaningful character at one point who was a kobold, but the life expectancy of ko's tends to be almost as short as their stature).